Guitar Noise
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Posted on Feb 03, 2006 12:10 pm
Roach
Member Since: Jan 05, 2006
I'm recording guitars using tube amps, JCM2000 triple lead, and Fender Deville. I'm getting a lot of noise when the guitar is plugged in, I mean way more than normal. Both the Guitar, and Amps have been serviced recently and they are in perfect working condition. I recently had my “Professional Electrician Brother” supply my "studio" with a completely separate grounded circuit of its own. I also use a power conditioner, and I tried “Ground lifting” as well. I'm picking up a few radio signals once in a while depending on where I put my amp, but that’s not the main problem. It seems that I am still getting tons of noise. Using a gate works a bit, but it’s almost too much when dealing with the clean tones. Going direct into my computer doesn’t make it any less bearable either. I recently moved to the city, and I know that there is a TV station about a half mile away (according to the cable company) this effects some cable stations. I heard rumors about putting Tin Foil as a shield inside the amp it self???? I was wondering if that will actually work. Of course I notice a little noise at bars and that’s normal because of lights and such, but when recording it’s unacceptable. I’m wondering if those powerful TV antennas and my close neighborhood are affecting my signal. I’m fresh out of Ideas. Any Ideas I’d appreciate it.
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TallChapAnswer:On a good day, lipstick.Member
Since: Jun 24, 2004
Feb 03, 2006 12:26 pm I'm just going to throw out some ideas here. I don't want to insult anyone's intelligence. If there are some "duh!" things here, it's just to get them out of my head! I probably wouldn't line an amp with foil.
Check for:
1. Shielding in the guitar
2. Guitar cables
3. Fluorescent light source
4. Dimming on any light source
5. Bad tubes (microphonic) in amps/pre amps
If the noise is the same whether it's amped or direct, then it could have something to do with:
Mixer?
Soundcard?
Cables?
External source of interference?
Microphones?
I'd start with one component at a time, isolate any noise, then add the next link in the chain.
If the guitar checks out ok, add the cord, and test again, add the amp etc.
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Feb 03, 2006 12:33 pm Many amp builders put wire screen on the top of the amp box, on the underside of the top piece. This will catch any RF noise floating around, and send it to ground (yeah, it has to be connected to ground).
Preamp tubes can pick up RF pretty easily, as they're dealing with a very small signal, and have to boost it up a bunch.
I wouldn't be against putting screen in there with staples, and connecting it go ground.
Then what Tallchap says is what I do, start with one thing, see if you can isolate it. Then add a component, and try again. Process of elimination.
Otherwise, if you can move the whole setup to another location, to see if there's any difference in an RF-clean area compared to where you are. All else being equal. (same git, cable, amp, cab, etc.)
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Feb 03, 2006 12:36 pm If that is the case, and it's TV interference, and going direct causes the same gremlins, then maybe all your cables need to be better shielded. Plus the guitar can be shielded as well. Lots of strat users sheild the innards of their guitars, due to lots-o-hum.
Maybe a tinfoil lined basement =).
It may be a case of each part adds it's own little section of hum, and it adds up to a big unacceptable problem. That's why I was thinking the travel idea.
HuePinnipedal Czar (: 3= Member
Since: Apr 11, 2004
Feb 03, 2006 12:38 pm Does your guitar use single coil pick-ups ?
RoachMember
Since: Jan 05, 2006
Feb 03, 2006 01:13 pm I have duel Humbuckers. I already checked all this stuff. The problem lies within the guitar and amp. I turned off all the lights in the house, I even turned off the computer to see if that was doing it. If I play out there isn't this much noise. It's got to be the area, and moving is not an option :) Just wondering if there was kind of shielding trick or something. Thanks to all that replied
HuePinnipedal Czar (: 3= Member
Since: Apr 11, 2004
Feb 03, 2006 01:32 pm I see, yeah I guess that would be obvious, eh ? I'm going through a similar issue... mines in the computer, though . One thing I found running through the motions of tracking down the issue was that a single fuse 'port' in my fuse box, is giving out a nasty 60cycle hum .
Breaker-box is on the way... installation this week, if I'm lucky .
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Feb 03, 2006 01:39 pm Time to try another guitar, then another amp in the same room. That ought to at least narrow it down some.
RoachMember
Since: Jan 05, 2006
Feb 03, 2006 02:16 pm Already did that in every room.
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Feb 03, 2006 02:18 pm It doesn't have to be lights either, I've seen (read about) occasions where just the wiring in the wall will give off 60hz. Maybe a flaky bend or some obstruction or weak point in the wiring. Not all over the house, but just in one area.
Maybe hold the guitar out and 'look' for the source of the hum. If you can pinpoint it, maybe you can have the electricity turned off for that circuit to see if it goes away. You'd have to be plugged into another circuit, of course.
< turns off power, 'there, no more buzz' > =)
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Feb 03, 2006 02:53 pm What, tried a new guitar and amp in every room? What was the outcome?
RoachMember
Since: Jan 05, 2006
Feb 03, 2006 03:01 pm I'll try that,I have one outlet that is on it's own circuit that is actually grounded. We put that in last week becasue we thought that there was too much on one circuit, It's an old house so the upstairs was one circuit. That's how they did it in 1920. The other floors are seperated. I already tried moving the amp all over the house and nothing worked, it was worse in some areas but it still had a loud hum.
RoachMember
Since: Jan 05, 2006
Feb 03, 2006 03:02 pm It's the same in every room with the three guitars and the three tube amps I tried.
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Feb 03, 2006 03:08 pm That really bites. Sounds like you've tried everything I'd have thought of. I hope someone else comes up with an idea that works, 'cuz I'm out.
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Feb 03, 2006 03:10 pm What I was talking about was bringing in a whole different guitar and amp for some trial-and-error testing.
Borrow a friend's guitar, plug it in and play. If there's still noise, then its not your guitar. Borrow a friend's amp and plug in and play. If there's still a noise, its not your amp.
If the borrowed gear still produces the noise, then its certainly the wiring/ground in the house. If they don't produce the noise, then its gotta be your gear that's producing it.
I'd think that'd be step #1: find out if the problem is the house or your gear. Then you'll know which one to kick and spout curses at.
If you say that you play out with the same gear and get no noise, then its definitely, absolutely, 100% gotta be the wiring in the house. Go to Radio Shack and spend the $20 for one of those outlet testers. It'll show you if the place is grounded properly. If it's not, then have that ProElec brother back over and don't let him leave till its all grounded properly :)
RoachMember
Since: Jan 05, 2006
Feb 03, 2006 03:35 pm Yea that was all done weeks ago, the reason I ran a new outlet was because the house was not wired correctly. The outlet I use is completely fine, and properly grounded (the only one in the house). The rest of the house is not. It's not the amp or the guitar because I checked that first by doing what you stated. I know it's the house. Whether it's interference from other wiring, or the city I don't know. I also live across from a school. So here's what I'm up against a School, a TV station, old crap wiring, and close neighbors.
jmailjimmie neutronMember
Since: Feb 14, 2005
Feb 04, 2006 05:59 am Not to insinuate anything, but just because you have a new outlet, installed by someone you know, and it's got a ground plug hole, doesn't mean it's grounded. Go to the hardware store and purchase an outlet tester. They used to be about $4, probably have gone up some in the last few years... Anyway, they look like a regular 3-prong plug, but have 3 lights (usually) on the end where an electric cord would go. All you do is plug it into the wall outlets, look at the lights on the end and match that to the chart they supply... Be sure and check that the household's ground at the service entrance is good, also...
Also, some old houses used ball & tube wiring (very dangerous, btw), where the "hot" ran on one side of a floor joist, and the "common" ran on the other joist parallel to the hot... Sort of like an antennae... If your house has any of that, especially in the attic, let's say, the radio signals will come across the "common" wire to the whole house...
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Feb 04, 2006 03:35 pm www.google.com/search?q=S...:en-US:official
Here are some links to articles and stuff relating strictly to guitar and ampliciers.
Other then looking to a local guitar or amp tech house for advice on sheilding that is the best palce to start. I know I have had similar problems in the past and ended up purchasing Rf sheiling panels. They are not cheap either, but it may be the best alternative in your case.
RoachMember
Since: Jan 05, 2006
Feb 06, 2006 10:28 am All the electric was tested and was fine.
Feb 06, 2006 11:03 am Would it be worth running your amp through a power conditioner? Might be a stupid suggestion but...?
Feb 06, 2006 11:04 am good suggestion, and actually, your whole studio should be run through one.
Feb 06, 2006 03:33 pm He already said he uses a power conditioner. Read, people!
Here's a shielding project: Go to the hardware store, and look for the galvanized tin sheets that are used for fabricating ductwork and heating vents. Buy a really big sheet, and a pair of tin snips. Cut the corners out so you can create a box, by folding four sides down. Then solder a shielded cable (old power cable, guitar cable, spare speaker wire, anything really...) and attach the other end of this cable to the center screw holding your outlet's face plate. Then put the box over your amp. This creates a shielded box that's grounded straight to the outlet's grounding, instead of trying to trust your audio equipment's natural grounding.
I'm sure this will get rid of any interference getting to the tubes or amp circuitry. Keep your speaker cab away from it, if necessary. Cuz I doubt you wanna make a grounding box that covers up your speakers.
Feb 06, 2006 03:39 pm My bad, I never did do well in reading comprehension...
Feb 06, 2006 03:46 pm read, schmead...too much to read, I was just feeding off the previous response...
Feb 06, 2006 10:00 pm Well I only skimmed the previous comments but I have only two suggestions that posed problems for me.
1. Playing too close to any CRT computer monitor or television that is turned on will produce alot of noise and hum.
2. I had the same electrical problem which was making alot of noise in my recordings. Basically you must plug everything into one power strip coming from a single outlet. My house also has an old electrical system and all of the outlets have different grounding so it is not whether the outlet is grounded or not but the fact that I had numerous things plugged in with different grounding. This produced alot of noise and no power conditioner or lift would aid in this. So make sure your amp and perhaps any pedals or anything at all in your chain are plugged into one power strip.
RoachMember
Since: Jan 05, 2006
Feb 08, 2006 01:40 pm Thanks, thats what I was planning grounding the amp by doing somnething very similar. I kind of found out a good place in my house where I don't get a lot of noise as well.
BavPolMember
Since: Sep 10, 2005
Feb 09, 2006 10:10 am First...get someone to help you that understands the shock hazards involved if you decide to start tinkering with your amps(the amps you mentioned probably have B+ supplies in the 400-500 volt DC range). The only good thing is that if you get bit by the DC, what hurts most is whatever it is you hit flying backwards due to completing a DC circuit using part of you body.
Then maybe the following may help.
Maybe you've done this but, just set up the amp controls like they would be when you record. Don't plug anything in the input jack. There shouldn't be much hum, just hissing noise, depending on how much gain you use. If it's still humming like crazy you need to start with the amp. As far as shielding, the chassis already provides a shield, being that it's either steel or aluminum. The problem areas could be the "open" end of the chassis(you would see this if you took the amp out of the cabinet). Inside the cabinet should be either wire mesh or a sheet of metal(typically aluminum). If that's not there, that can be a problem. Also, when the chassis is bolted into the cabinet, this mesh or sheet must be in contact with the chassis to be effective as a shield. The only other candidates in the amp are the tubes(glass isn't an effective shield), but most amps have preamp tube shields that twist on, made of aluminum.
If it's RF interference(you mentioned radio stations) you may have to have someone add a small series inductor and a shunt cap to gnd at the input to your tube amps to attenuate that type of pickup.
Having said all this, my experience says it's usually the guitar that's most of the problem. After all you have in effect a "search coil" acting as your pickup and then you're amplifying the hell out of that with a blazing Marshall "set to 11". Do you notice it get better or worse depending on the direction you point the guitar? If so you may be able to track down the source of the noise, if it's being generated in the house somewhere. If your humbuckers are picking it up, the only other suggestion is to try an active pickup with an instrumentation amp(diff. amp) in it(like an EMG). The diff. amp will reject the common mode noise the pickup is receiving. The humbucker themselves should do this although not as well as an active, for a number of reasons.
OK, I'm assuming you checked the basics...don't have ground loop issues and at least you've checked that your bridge is grounded(through a resistor if you want to be safest). Also, your cables are good? Checked continuity of both center conductor and shield? They are not unshielded speaker cables are they? It sounds stupid, but I've done some dumber things then that when I ASSUMED something was right when it wasn't.
Gary
