Song forms
Home > Home Recording Forum > Music & Composition > Song forms
Posted on Nov 12, 2004 01:11 am
Tadpui
I am not a crook's head
Member Since: Mar 14, 2003
I've noticed a pattern in my preferred form for a song. I'm no good at translating it into an "AABA" or whatever like they in proper theory, but here's the format that I find myself using much more than any other:
Verse-verse-chorus-bridge(or solo, or both)-verse-chorus
I find that omitting the 1st chorus allows me to write slower-paced and slightly longer verses without making the song too long, and it also omits some repetition. Sometimes I just get plain tired of hearing people's choruses. Just hearing them twice seems to keep the song fresh for me.
Only one song of mine on my current project has this more common form:
verse-chorus-verse-chorus-solo-verse-chorus
A song that I just finished arranging has a less common form of:
verse-verse-chorus-short verse-solo-short verse-chorus
I also tend to write in a 2-verse form like :
verse-chorus-verse-chorus-solo/outro
I think that this rubbed off on me from listening to early David Bowie (see the song Aladdin Sane). but I haven't written much in that format for a while now.
So, what are your favorite forms for songwriting? Or at least, what form(s) do you find that you've used when you've written a song? A lot of times, I don't pick a form consciously, I just find that I tend to lean towards certain ones.
[ Back to Top ]
olddogMember
Since: Jul 02, 2003
Nov 12, 2004 01:37 am I don't tend to pick a form consciously either. I think my are a pretty even mix of the forms I do tend to use.
The 2 most common for me are probably:
v,v,c,solo,v,c (sometimes omitting the final verse and ending with chorus/outro)
v,c,v,solo,v,c
And sometimes the solo will come following the chorus instead of verse.
I rarely use bridges, in fact I can only think of one song I've written that does.
Dan
Nov 12, 2004 03:58 am an absolute favorite of mine is to add an outro chorus different from the other choruses. like alice in chains' 'would.' i find that i keep doing this unconsciously, but they seem to work and many of them sound pretty original i guess, not like im trying to copy someone. hopefully ill get to post something within a few months.
a song im working on now goes:
intro, short verse, prechorus, shortened chorus (as a tease), stripped down full verse, full chorus, bridge, silent gap, and chorus.
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Nov 12, 2004 04:08 am That sounds like a cool form. Kind of wandering, which I like.
I tend to like a mixture of song forms on an album. I'm such a continuity fan when it comes to LPs. I'm a sucker for a rock opera or concept album. When the songs are varied not only in substance but in composition, it really makes the album feel like an adventure, like a good book or a good movie. I think that Modest Mouse (The Moon & Antarctica, in particular) has been a huge influence in my recent ambition to create more unconventional song structures.
I'm interested to see what types of structures people here think of their own creations in, if any.
Nov 12, 2004 05:02 am Well I just write what I like...well...I actually write poems and then if I like...I could adjust it for a song.
But I've written several poems and one song...well...that speaks for itself doen't it?...plenty of opinion...short on knowledge...
I'm just not very formulaic in anything really...I just do what I like...I think.
But I like your idea Tad, 'bout variety in substance and in composition...
Cheers,
BM
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Nov 12, 2004 05:22 am Most of my lyrics start out as formless, disjointed prose, then get refined into pseudo-poetry. then when I have some music that's in need of some lyrics, I sift through my collection, pick one that seems to match the mood, and start developing the lyrics and music together in lockstep to try to make them work together. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt.
But one thing is for sure: when I decide upon a set of lyrics for a particular song, it can go through a dozen incarnations before I get anything I like. At some point in there, the structure of the song kind of gels.
at least that's what's been happening lately. It feels good when it comes together, and it feels even better when I hear it start to become tangible in the studio.
Nov 12, 2004 05:49 am I think poetry is similar...it starts out with an idea and then it develops and as you're doing that, several threads begin presenting themselves...and then you tend to know which way to go...the other threads can become further ideas for new poems.
Mostly I find that I write from start to finish...the problem with that is you can be so tired you forget to save...so any electrical problems and...ah well..
I don't know anything about writing songs...but what you're saying seems to make sense to me.
Cheers,
BM
Nov 12, 2004 07:14 am I right things pretty ridigdly most of the time.
I almost always used to write the words, then the music. I always wrote in the intro/verse/chorus/verse/chorus/solo/chorus/verse/chorus kidna vein.
Now I have written music with no lyrics. Lyrics with no music. No chorus, no intro, no solo (GASP!!! NAE SOLO FOR A GUITARIST!!!!!!) and any other combo that works.
My songs are better for it so I reckon, me rigid approach was a duffer. tho, some of my best songs started that way.
Its all aboot flexibility - every song is different. Probably how I have written (what I consider to be) rock, indie rock, acoustic rock/folk (almost country!!) to piano ballad!! Now, as I always say, I am a bloody guitarist into ROCK! But, it just the way it happens....
Coco
Nov 12, 2004 08:12 am If you really listen, you can almost always tell a song that had the lyrics written first...somewhere the vocsl sound "fitted" rather than flowing and the music sounds more fabricated...
Nov 12, 2004 08:19 am I always write lyrics first, and then fit them to a melody. I'm bi-polar when it comes to form. Sometimes I stick to the verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge chorus form. (Sometimes I do that, but omut the bridge.) Other times I take a very Dylan-esque approach and just keep writing verses with no choruses until I run out of words.
Great topic!
TallChapAnswer:On a good day, lipstick.Member
Since: Jun 24, 2004
Nov 12, 2004 11:58 am I had a spell where I would not have a real chorus, per se, in the song. Rather a hook line that was tacked on to the end of the verses. As time progressed, I started to work those hooks into short bridges into the chorus.
I like the Intro, v, v, c, solo, v, c, c/outtro format, or the intro, v, v, c, bridge, c, v, c, solo, c, outro
Although I could never claim to be a guitarist, I love putting a lead line into the intro and/or outtro that compliemnts the solo. I find it gives the song more fluidity, and keeps everything neatly packaged (yes, I write pop songs, what of it?). I think it helps to keep interest when there's a scheme to the song.
That said, there's no reason at all for structure to a song if it doesn't need it. If it sounds right, it is right.
"There must be some kind of way out of here...."
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Nov 12, 2004 12:48 pm hey remember to change the key up a half step when you get to the bridge...then you can be motown!
Nov 12, 2004 02:40 pm as for the lyrics-first technique, i hate doing that too, and have gotten poor results. but is it possible that some people write the lyrics along with melody in thier head and then just harmonize that for the final song? i heard that's how madonna writes her songs, and hers don't sound fitted.
TallChapAnswer:On a good day, lipstick.Member
Since: Jun 24, 2004
Nov 12, 2004 03:51 pm I agree that the "words first" approach can, on occasion, sound contrived. However, Elton John didn't do too bad from writing tunes around Bernie Taupin's lyrics. Sure, there have one or two awkward sounding moments, but on the whole I think EJ's music is great (Goodbye Yellow Brick Road being one of the best albums ever. Yes. Album. Sorry).
Sometimes I wish I could write the lyrics first. I've found that often a melody gives way to a lyric, and a lyric gives way to a theme, and the theme becomes a song. The guitar part (I've written 95% on guitar, 1% keyboards, 1% bass, 3% mandolin) often dictates the mood of the song, and that suggests the story. A certain chord change sometimes begs for a certain phrase or word. I let the song build itself, then edit as I can/need to. I think it sounds more natural that way. More like a song, rather than a poem over some music.
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Nov 13, 2004 12:12 am If you do the lyrics first, then you can't just shoehorn them into the rhythm of a song. You have to work with the lyrics and the song together to get them to fit EACH OTHER. Otherwise, just like has been mentioned here several times, it can (will) sound forced.
Any more, I don't think that I ever keep lyrics unchanged if I'm using existing lyrics for a new song. They have to be molded and crafted and custom-fitted for the song in question.
Otherwise, they all end up sounding like the Super Bowl Shuffle!
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Nov 13, 2004 02:11 am thinking about it, I guess that I do tend to do the intro/solo/outro thing too, but I don't usually include anything but the solo in my impression of the song form.
Of the songs on my NoWhereRadio page, I see that I use the following forms (sorry, I'm bored and looking for ways to entertain myself, so here we go, whether you care or not hehehe):
i = intro
s = solo
o = outro
v = verse
sv = short vers
c = chorus
pc = prechorus
b = bridge
bd = breakdown
v-c-v-c-v-c (What You Want, I've Walked So Far, Perfect Little Girl)
i-v-v-c-s-v-c-o (Missus C)
v-c-v-c-s-v-c (Stay With Me, Cold House)
v-s-v-s (Crying With The Blues)
v-c-v-c-b-o (This Isn't Yesterday)
v-pc-c-v-pc-c-s-v-pc-c-o (Still Me)
sv-pc-v-pc-c-s-bd-v-pc-c-o (I Want It Back)
v-v-s-v (Snowman - more of the Dylan-esque "verse with refrain at the end")
Well, at the very least, this execise gave me an excuse to revisit my NWR page and listen to the stuff I've created over that past year. The verdict: while I'm at least moderately happy with my song and lyric writing (regardless of whether or not anybody else is), I suck at recording and mixing!
