Jul 27, 2004 03:32 am I really don't know about the question
Check our Recording tips there are a few articles about this subject
oh and WELCOME to HRC
stay aboard
Cheap Recording Help
Posted on Jul 27, 2004 03:15 am
tuckjos
Member Since: Jul 27, 2004
I'm moving out into the garage/shed, being converted into a liveable room, and am looking at the option of enhancing it a bit to make it a bit more suitable for recording. It's a small, long room, 7'6" x 17'. I have two objectives for it.
First, I need to soundproof it. By that I'm not talking so much about the effect I'm looking for on the inside (eliminating echoes, feedback, etc.), but being able to hear it on the outside. I want to be able to play my guitar and sing at 2 a.m. We're not talking about full band practice with drumset, distroted guitars, loud amps and mic'd vocals. It's for songwriting purposes, not practice purposes. I just want to be able to play a guitar, either acoustic or quietly mic'd electric, and sing along (no mic). But to for that to be allowable, none of that noise can go beyond my walls. At this point, I think a lot of it is coming through the door. But basically, I want to soundproof the corner of the room near my parents' bedroom window, especially the door. And clearly I don't need the best, most soundproof stuff on the market, because we're not talking about full band and loud amps; it'll just be me and my guitar, and so I obviously can do with a couple steps down from top-of-the-line.
My second objective is to make this room as recordable as possible for as little as possible. Now, reading a couple threads, I feel I should point out my limited means. I can't afford floating floors, or building a second wall with a space in between (room inside a room), or anything like that. Heck, I can't even really afford basic 2" studio foam over an area I want to cover. I'd like to do the best I can for $100 or $200. I know that's not a lot, but it's about what I have to work with.
However, one thing I've noticed in doing some research is that people don't usually put studiofoam on all four walls and the ceiling. Sometimes they just do the front wall and one side wall, or something. Here's where I make my confession: I know next to nothing about any of this stuff. I don't know what's necessary to make something sound good. I don't know if you should cover every inch of wall and ceiling and floor with studio foam and floor mats, or only just parts. And if only certain parts, which parts? Or I've even seen mention of just having panels. That puzzles me, because it seems like having panels would just allow the sound to bounce around around the sides of the panels, and that would just take care of little select areas but not do that much for the overall sound. But like I said, what do I know? If you could use just a couple panels, how big should they be, where should you put them, and what effect will they have?
So here's the deal. I'm not looking for the ultimate; I know I can't afford it, or even anything a lot of people on this forum would consider "half decent". I would just like to do the most I can with $100, maybe $200. I want to do the end of my room, from the end wall to (and including) the door. That's about 7'6" wide by 6'6" deep. The ceiling is the standard 10' high, but I could also cut it down with just a beam and a couple planks to 8' for next to nothing (maybe even make it into a loft, which would rock, plus add space on the floor for this stuff). I believe that I can keep pretty much that whole 6.5x7.5 area clear, no furniture or anything in it. The walls are wood and the floor is cement.
What is the best, yet cheapest, way to make that a half decent recordable space? Should I treat all 3 walls, or just 1 or 2? Should I have a couple of panels to put up to act as the 4th wall? Should I pad the ceiling? And what should I use for materials? And if I only pad portions of the enclosure I'm turning that end of the room into, where should I set up my equipment, and facing which direction? (We're talking 1 guitar amp, not turned up very high, and one mic; most of the time, in fact, I'll be using headphones.) And again, if I only pad portions of the "enclosure", where should I be facing when I play, sing, etc.? And should I do anything do the floor?
Finally, are there any materials I can use that are cheaper than studio foam? My dad mentioned using egg cartons (yes, the cardboard things that you buy eggs in), says he's heard those work pretty well, but I'm skeptical. Anything makeshift and completely dirt cheap that would work for me? Especially since, as I mentioned, we're not talking about a garage band here, but just one guy, his voice, and his guitar, what kind of low cost options would work for me?
I know this is a freaking long post. Sorry 'bout that. I just have a lot of questions, and even more ignorance, when it comes to this stuff. Thanks to anyone who takes the time to give me any ideas. Oh, and if you're explaining something, feel free to explain it as you would to a complete idiot, and assume that I don't know much about what you're talking about.
Thanks.
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Jul 27, 2004 03:32 am I really don't know about the question
Check our Recording tips there are a few articles about this subject
oh and WELCOME to HRC
stay aboard
Jul 27, 2004 05:07 am My that's a large post y'a got there !
I recently treated a similar space, (mobil-home) and found alot of ideas on line, off of sites devoted to this topic . Of course, your situation is unique, in the fact that you only want to do this to a section of the area, so I'm not sure if what I learned would help you .
If you have access to some free ply wood, and/or drywall, this could be used to help beef-up your walls . Increasing the 'volume' of your walls, will decrease the volume outside . Try to seal things up as much as possible with caulk, and weather stripping . Acoustic foam does not substantially decrease the dBs, but is used more for contouring the frequencies of your space, and taming some of the problem ones . A combination of the two types of materials would be optimal . Making some bass-bins to absorb some of the long-standing waves may be helpfull, as the low-end will fly right thru an untreated room's walls, especially the corners . These can be made pretty easily, with some research . The third wall/partition is a good idea... maybe hang a large carpet/tapestry up ? Hope this helps .
Good luck, and welcome to HRC !
Jul 27, 2004 05:10 am Well, first, let me say welcome to HRC as well.
Second, on a $200 or so budget, you will not get the room you want soundproofed, as there is really no way to do it cheaply. Putting sound absobant foam on all four walls will make the room very dead and unpleasant to work in.
There are two way to treat a room, one is sound proofing, the other is tuning. The foam inside a room is for tuning, that being, controlling the soundinside the room. Sound proofing is keeping the sound from getting out.
There are a few article in our tips section under "Do It Yourself Project" that cover these topics.
Egg cartons do nothing, matress pads do little to nothing, just because they can look like studio foam doesn't mean they do. You can use heavy quilts hung on the wall, old, used office cubicle walls can help. In one of the article in the DIY section I also explain how to make some sound control boards pretty cheaply that work quite well, but again, they won't "sound proof".
Jul 27, 2004 07:02 am 'tis true... there really isn't a cheap way . I achieved only 'ok' results, and spent alot more than I thought I would doing the 'room-in-a-room' thing .
No complaining neighbors in two years, though .
Jul 27, 2004 09:17 am My friend uses a trick that works REALLY well. And It won't cost much.
Egg cartons. Looks BAD, but it secures the sound. Keep in mind it glued/taped them on every each of the room.
That is worth a try.
if it works and looks bad, then just buy some cheap cloth to cover it. That will also absorb some sound...not much of anything.
Jul 27, 2004 09:44 am The moxt important areas to treat are on the sides, and the ceiling, right in front of your speakers.
Jul 27, 2004 09:55 am Two A.M. is no time to have an amp going!
I know there's a huge difference between a mic'ed amp and a headphone amp, but there's less likelyhood of Dad coming down to complain.
Get a small mixer and go through that with headphones. Unless you're screaming into the mic, you can sing and play happily without disturbing anyone. I do it all the time.
During the day, I bet no-one will be too upset with a little noise. Just be a bit more compromising during the night. Gobos made from a wooden frame with carpet stretched between does give a little baffling effect, so putting something like that behind the mic could help block the sound. Again, if you're screaming it might not help at all.
I've been through a number of situations - room-within-a-room, pumping foam into the wall cavities etc. All are quite a bit more money than you have.
Good luck.
Jul 27, 2004 10:14 am Thanks for your responses, guys. A couple things.
First, I don't intend to be playing very loud at 2 a.m. Quite quietly, in fact. It'll almost always be my electric, since I can turn the volume way down on that, or use earphones. I won't even be playing at the equivalent of half volume on an acoustic.
Second, I got the impression from one of your posts that studio foam, which is used to treat a room, is used more for shaping the sound inside the room than for preventing the sound from traveling outside of the room. Am I understanding correctly? Because I had thought that by lining the walls with studio foam (say, for example, 3-inch wedge studiofoam) it would cut down significantly on the amount of sound that passes through that wall. Is that not so?
Third, a little advice. Say I created a little enclave, approximately 6 ft. high, 7 feet wide, and 6 feet deep. (Basically, the underside of a loft.) DB said that putting absorbant foam on all 4 sides of a room would deaden the space. If that is so, what would you do to that small area to enhance it for recording guitar and vocals (this from a purely recording standpoint, ignoring soundproofing issues)?
That's the size of the enclosure I want to treat. And I'm finding some decent deals on studio foam, that I'm willing to invest in. Now, I just need to know the practics of how to put it together. Thanks again for your input.
Jul 27, 2004 10:22 am You are correct, foam is used to treat the sound inside the space. While it can and will stop some from getting out, thats not it's purpose and it won't stop much.
Part of what makes a recording good is the tone of the room you are in. You need some absorbent surfaces and some reflective. The foam is absorbent, the hard surfaces are reflective. You need a little of each.
If you want to know the massive impact of a deadroom, go to any factory that makes hearing aids or tests such things. I have been in one totally dead room, it's treated on all surfaces to absorb just about everything in the human hearing range. It's very wierd...you can stand there and hear you heart beating as no sound travels anywhere. That IS NOT the type of room you want to record in.
What you really need to stop the most is the low end of the frequency, that is what travels the farthest and through the most stuff in it's way, and no simple studio foam will stop that. You need a wall, a small gap of airspace and another wall. This is called a "bass trap" which traps the low end between the walls. The first wall weakens it and when it gets past the second wall, in theory, stops it. There are foam "bass traps" but again, they are more to trap the bass from affecting the sound in the room, not outside of it.
Jul 27, 2004 10:27 am Ok dude... welcome to HRC!
I try to think cheap myself, so mebbee I can help ya some...
(EDIT: I started writing this before I saw your post at Jul 27, 2004 10:14 am, re: the enclosure space you're working with. Keep that in mind.)
First - there is a major difference between stopping sound and shaping it, as has already been mentioned.
I cannot comment on other people's experiences with foam and egg cartons stopping sound. In my experience, however, corroborated by info I've found on the net, these sound solutions do not stop sound - they just keep all your noise from bouncing off the walls back at your mic. To STOP sound - you need a substantial barrier.
You could lay brick walls around your shed, and you would have fairly good luck with this. Something tells me you're not going to want to do that.
I have an alternate suggestion. Instead of soundproofing your whole room - why not build an isolation box for your amp? Keep in mind, I personally have never done this, and can't give you tried and true advice on how to do it. If I were going to do it though, I would do this: get a big (clean) Rubbermaid garbage can. Cut a mic hole in the bottom. Place amp inside can if possible, for recording. To block sound from escaping, you can wrap carpet samples (you might nab some for free next to the dumpster behind a carpet shop, just thinking outside the box here) or blankets around the can. You can drape thick blankets, carpet, whatever, over the big end, behind the amp, and maybe even shove it up against a mattress or something if you are so inclined.
Layer of blankets/carpet/mattress --> Amp (with amp facing into the can) --> Garbage can with "stuff" wrapped around it --> ...and then the sound goes into the mic, poking inside a small hole in the end (bottom) of the can, which you can seal by stuffing sheets/clothes around the hole.
I don't imagine that this will keep your operation entirely silent. It may even alter your amp's sound a little (it'll sound more close to the mic too, probably). But I figure that all that material will block your outside noise as well as keep your modest amp volume mostly inside the shed.
Disclaimer: I have never attempted this, though I've given it a good deal of thought. I have also never heard of anyone making an enclosure quite like this. I can't guarantee it works. But I believe it will be a lot more effective than egg cartons or light padding up on the walls (though if you're in a metal shed, I would still definitely put something up on those wells or they will reverberate and pass your sound right through to outside).
Jul 27, 2004 10:39 am If you are using the same room for lisetning that you are tracking, heres a good rule of thumb.
Deaden the area with a large piece of foam (eggcrate is a diffusor, not a dampener by the way) directly in back of the mic. I have a totally dead room, so believe me, I have done many tests. About 80% of your source, voice, guitar, etc. goes forward, and if it hits a good dampening surface, it wont go (reflect) anywhere else in the room. The difference in just that adjustment is like night and day. You want the source to go into the mic and by it, and stop there. What people dont realize is, slapback echo is so fast, its not really PERCIEVED as echo, but rather mud, or non-clarity I guess you would say.
The listening environment howevber isnt that easy. Start with the above, and you will be good to go yo.
Jul 27, 2004 10:44 am Hey, that's a good idea guitwizz. I think I'll use that! :)
Good point re: slapback perception.
Jul 27, 2004 10:57 am Thanks again guys. Here's what I'm thinking of doing based on your feedback.
I'm going to approach the soundproofing and the tuning for recording purposes as two separate issues.
For recording:
I'm thinking of creating that 6ft. high, 6ft. deep, 7ft. wide enclosure under my loft as I mentioned. And I'm thinking of covering the back wall with 3" wedge studio foam. I'm thinking of leaving the "ceiling" and side walls bare, and they are basically wood, plywood, and corkwood.
As far as soundproofing goes, I'm looking more into materials designed specifically for soundproofing. For example, anyone have any experience with AudiMute soundproofing acoustical coverings? If these work as they claim to work, I was thinking of lining the portions of the two walls that form the corner nearest my parents' room with a couple of those (opposite end of the room), and then focussing on soundproofing the door.
I haven't yet looked at how to soundproof a door. I'm sure there's probably a lot of info out there on how to do that, as that's a pretty specific task.
One last thing, back to the little recording space. My floor is cement. Should I leave that, too, or should I put down carpeting or something?
As always, thanks.
Jul 27, 2004 11:25 am Since most of your waves are going east west type thing, the floor matters the least. I know wood is good for most big studios, Im not sure about concrete.
I have the audiomute auralex blankets, and they asre good, but they are basically packing blankets. They have to be fastened to a surface though, if they are hung, they dont stop much.
Jul 27, 2004 05:03 pm Hey, thanks a lot guitwizz. You've helped me figured out what I'm going to do. I'm going to cover the back wall (the wall behind the mic) with studio foam, but not the other walls, or the "ceiling" or the floor. I'm also gonna do a few tests tonight, right before my parents go to bed, to see just how much of the type of noice that I would be making after their bed time (really minimal) will be audible at that time of night, and I'm guessing it will be very little, and what there is will be taken care of by soundproofing the door. And that, I believe, my parents are willing to pay for. And I think that should do, because the sound that escapes from the room during the day, even when I'm strumming hard and singing loud, is tolerable for daytime noise (like I said, this isn't garage band with drums and distorted guitars), and at night, I'm only playing really soft acoustic or very low volume electric, and singing quite softly. The reason being that late at night isn't so much time for playing or practicing or even recording, it's just for writing songs, and that's not something done at high volume. So I think soundproofing the door should be enough, and I'm about to look into doing that. Then, building my loft and putting studiofoam on the back wall, and that's it. I'm defintely glad to have asked these questions, because it means that I'm ending up needing a lot less studio foam than I had expected, and that means less money spent, which is never a bad thing.
Thanks again to everybody for their input. I appreciate it.
Jul 28, 2004 02:05 am Hey, the louder you play your amp, the more money they may invest in your sound proofing!!!!! LOL!!!!!
CRANK THE AMP UP!!!
"our amps go to 11" hehe
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