How can smal amps compromise my guitar sound?
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Posted on May 01, 2004 10:30 am
Bruno
The Quiet Minded
Member Since: Jan 01, 2003
I have two small amps that use to record guitars, they are an Ibanez ToneBlaster of 15W and a Marshall of 15 W too. I don't have money to use a larger amp neither a have a place where I can have a big amp really turned up. I was wondering what are my real limitations by the fact that I only use small amps. As my experience tells me I cant have a full distortion sound with small ones...
If anyone have something recorded with small amps would you mind showing me?
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DanMember
Since: Nov 21, 2002
May 01, 2004 03:49 pm Well, i dont really know much about why, but it probably has something to do with the fact that first off, smaller practice amps are generally solid state, which in my opinion doesnt get a very good crunch even in larger amps.
How big is the speaker in those amps? im guessing that they each have a single 8" speaker, which doesnt deliver a very full sound.
Also they generally will use inferior parts in small amps simply because they arent meant for recording or gigging with.
However, There are small amps that sound good, they are expensive though. Search around for small tube amps made for recording. They do exist.
Also, Vox makes a small 15 or 30 watt little amp that kicks some serious butt, my friend has 2 of em, they sound pretty good for their size/price, and they arent very expensive either.
May 01, 2004 04:06 pm Valves is the answer most of the time...
As Dan has pointed out, your smaller amps are usually solid state meaning they use transistors rather than valves to get your distoriton sounds.
So, you can get by with a small amp but you just cant get the wholesome tones from a bigger amp as they do generally have better parts, valves, more eq and better/bigger speakers.
Have you considered purchasing a VAMP2?? Great investment and make a crap/smaller amp sound so much better as they emulate all the big, expensive, high quality amps like Marshalls etc.
Give it a try and see what you think...you will love it.
Cheers...
Coco
May 01, 2004 04:49 pm I agree with some of the above statements. It's not really a prob becuase it's a small amp, just because it's a practice amp. You can buy small combos that are very well built, high-end stuff (whther tube or solid state) and get a great sound from it. When recording a Marshall stack, you are still only miking a single speaker, so if you get a combo as well built, with the same high quality components as a big amp, you can still get great sound from it.
Most of the music in my profile was recording by my guitar playing neighbor and he did it with a small Vox combo amp with a single 12" speaker and 30 watts or so (maybe 50, I forget) and it sounded as good as many big ol' stacks that I have worked with.
flame...bringing sexy backMember
Since: Jul 01, 2002
May 01, 2004 04:54 pm evening deeb
drayburnEmerson's Transparent EyeballMember
Since: Jan 19, 2004
May 01, 2004 09:59 pm Yeah, the problem is most likely the "solid state" sound of the amps in question. I mean, I have a 70's Princeton 12W tube amp that sounds good miked, as well as a late 60's Silvertone (not exactly boutique) 15W tube amp that sounds fabulous- but I have to use an overdrive or distortion pedal to get a good crunch sound at low volume. That's fine though because they don't have to be stupid loud to start breaking up either, which is nice. Try closing the back of the cabinet if it has an open back- it'll give it more punch like a large cab. Or you could get a POD for not much more money than I bought that Silvertone off eBay. I use mine all the time, and you can get a decent "big amp" sound.
DanMember
Since: Nov 21, 2002
May 01, 2004 10:20 pm also take into consideration that 15 tube watts is significantly louder than 15 solid state watts.
dB, sounds like the same vox i was talking about before. awesome amp.
But besides suggesting new amps and equipment that you may not want/have the cash to buy at the moment, if you can try Putting the Amp in a different room, maybe try the bathroom, or any smaller room so it can more easily "fill" the room with sound.
zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
May 02, 2004 05:38 pm It's been my understanding that for recording you _want_ a small combo amp. ... provided it's not solid state :) Mainly because you can max the volume easier which overdrives the tubes and speakers. You also don't have to take the time to investigate your cabnet wiring path to mic the "good" speaker.
DiemusikString benderMember
Since: Unknown
May 02, 2004 10:47 pm I've managed to get some respectable lead tones out of small practice amps but the small speaker is going to be the thing that holds back that big crunching rhythm tones. Upgrading to a twin or even an amp that has a single 12" speaker in it would help. Also, as mentioned above you could try something like the POD or the VAMP2. I would caution you to take a listen to these things though because I have a VAMP2 that I bought off the internet without listening to it and I'm not really happy with it. The only sound it does that I like is a bluesy, classic rock overdrive sound. To me it doesnt have enough highend to make a good modern heavy guitar sound. No offense meant to those of you that have this gear and like it. Its just not really to my taste. It is an option though just give it a listen first.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
May 02, 2004 10:49 pm I guess it's all in what you are doing. The pre-amp section is the guts of the beast. Take the POD or any other top notch pre-amp. That's where the tone is realy formed. I guess it's all about how much power you need. Some need a lot of power to "feel" their tone. Obviously you power if you are going to fill a large venue. Most large outside venue gigs are set up with a house system. The performers will either carry a very small but quality amp for micing or a real good pre amp to DI into the system. Same with recording. A real quality small amp and speaker will make a great recording as long as there is enough power to get off the noise floor. There really are a ton of factors relitive to the quality of an amp. But they are out there both in small and large models. Where it is deceiving is when you factor in the space you are filling with sound. When the environment starts ringing as part of the sound cavity you get a large amp sound. You are really hearing the environment around you vibrating. All about moving air. As far as moving the diaphram of a mic, it doesn't take much.
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
May 03, 2004 10:35 am I've heard it said numerous times that Clapton recorded most of an album with a fender champ, considered back then to be just a student/practice amp. It gave the power tube (valve) distortion. This is key for a lot of guitarists and their sound, the preamp tube distortion isn't *usually* considered as favorable as the power tube distortion.
With this in mind, you can have very low power tube amps that you max out for the power tube distortion, but are only putting out 1 watt (or so). It's louder than talking loud, but quieter than yelling. And, it's got real buttery overdrive.
Another tic point: most power tubes sound different when overdriven; the marshalls used el34 alot, as well as KT66 (think AC/DC), or 6550, whereas fender used the 6L6 family, including the 6V6 of most champs.
Of course, this is all subjective.
DrewMember
Since: Apr 21, 2004
May 03, 2004 01:27 pm Not sure about Clapton, but I know that Jimmy Page cut a LOT of the early Led Zep albums with a small Fender tube combo, and Zep is about as "big amp" sounding as you get.
The fact that they're both solid state amps is a bit of a holdup- you're going to want to track WELL within the amp's useable headroom, because any power-amp distortion is going to REALLY hurt your tone. a tube preamp is nice and all, but the poweramp is where tubes really make the difference (on a side note, I've never gotten the Valvestate/AVT marshalls... the "tube" sound is from a compressng/overdriven power section, and while the tube pre undoubtably helps, a single tube will NOT give you that kind of gain across three channels; there's obviously still some solid-state assist in the preamp. So, yo're paying significantly more than a MG-series for wha's essentially still a solid state amp??).
The speaker's a bit of a problem too, but the added low-end rolloff can actually be advantageous in a mix- I find myself dropping most of the low-end below 120k on my rhythm tracks anyway. just dial up a "bigger" bass gutiar tone than you might otherwise, and you should be set. Once again, careful ont he volume, though, as if you push an 8" too hard, it'll just sound "farty."
Sure, I love the sound of my TSL-100, even at "sane" volumes, while tracking... but I'd be VERY happy with a nice high-gain 10-watt head. :) There's nothign wrong with small amps in the studio.
-D
DrewMember
Since: Apr 21, 2004
May 03, 2004 01:29 pm oh, for the "solid state" sound, how are you setting your EQ? if you're doing the typical "scooped mids, boosted bass and treble," stop. Try 4-6-4 or so, low to high, and back off the gain, and you should get a more "organic" tone.
-D
May 03, 2004 01:29 pm Heck, if you have a decent sound system and engineer there is nothing wrong with small amps live either...plus, it makes moving your rig easier.
DrewMember
Since: Apr 21, 2004
May 03, 2004 01:52 pm god, i agree... The only gig I eer needed the full 100 watts from my TSL was the one time i was going unmicd with a VERY loud band that WAS mic'd... Every other show I've played with it, i just left it on VPR mode (25 watts) to get a little more compression at sane volumes... I can't imagine ever really needing more than 10 watts to gig, if you're going through a PA.
-D
May 03, 2004 01:54 pm And the best part is if you come in with a smaller amp the in-house sound man is generally a little happier too. Sound dudes get cranky sometimes when they see some dude come in with a massive Marshall double-stack...and rule of thumb, ya don't wanna tick off the sound dude.
DrewMember
Since: Apr 21, 2004
May 03, 2004 02:14 pm definately.
Course, i was sorta thinking 10-watter pushing a 4x12, so he'll probably get a bit pissed at first, until you say, "don't worry dude, it's only 10 watts." ;)
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
May 14, 2004 07:32 pm Truth is you can make almost anything sound big if you mess about enough with it. I have used a small little platic replica amp and gotten big sound out of it.
DiemusikString benderMember
Since: Unknown
May 14, 2004 11:26 pm The very first gig I ever played was a decent sized club and all I used was a small Crate amp with a single 12" speaker. The house system made that thing sound huge. When I did upgrade it was to a Peavey classic twin all tube. Of course now I have an old Ampeg 100w tube head and 4x12 cab but much like Drew mention above I have way too much power for most clubs. The only time it was called upon was an out-doors gig. For a long time I used to put the Ampeg head on top of the Peavey twin and use the Peaveys speakers because I liked the sound of the Ampeg. Oh DB, the moving your rig part actually got easier when I got the half stack, the cab had wheels! :D
May 15, 2004 05:40 am Actually, the first gig I ever played I had a little 75 watt dual 12" combo, then through the years I had to get half stacks, then at the peak of my stupidity I had a double stack, 2x15 bottom and 4x10 top with cabs made from 1" thick wood...heavy as hell, and the head was an 8 space rack.
Later on, coming full circle my last real gigging rig was an Ampeg B3 combo with the rear bottom cut back at a 45 degree angle and dolly wheels, so you grab the handle, lean it back and wheel it away.
Point being, after you are out gigging for a while (or at least it was this way for me) you learn a few things and realize that the big, cool-looking, impressive double stack really means nothing to anyone except maybe the other musicians that happen to be at the show, and it actually makes the sound guy angry...after all, no matter how many speakers you have and how many watts, the FOH guy or recording engineer only mics one speaker anyway.
DanMember
Since: Nov 21, 2002
May 15, 2004 07:44 am I swear by my '83 Mesa/Boogie Mark II Custom, 75 watts all tube, 1 12" speaker, hand made (has the makers signature on the back of the chassis, when we called mesa boogie about installing a bias switch on it, they offered us $2500 for it), i personally dont need more than that. We play for audiences of 30-250 people, anything more i personally think will be overkill.
drayburnEmerson's Transparent EyeballMember
Since: Jan 19, 2004
May 15, 2004 07:07 pm Yah, a couple days after I made that comment above a friend of mine sold me a Peavey Classic 50 4x10 for a good price, so the rig gets larger again. The only thing you can't simulate with a small amp, even miked up, is the feeling of brute power you get from a large cabinet. I'd forgotten that, and it even makes me play differently, more aggressively for sure. There's something to be said for the therapeutic value of occasionally standing in front of an amp that's STUPID loud (but not too often- I want to be able to make music when I'm 60 without tinnitis). And I'm not sure if that's been addressd anywhere on this site before, but please, people, do wear earplugs on stage and in practice. A friend of mine is a carpenter and drummer, and at age 35 has lost 40% of the hearing in his right ear from drums and nail guns.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
May 17, 2004 06:14 pm Point of interest here on the Jimmy Page small amp comment by Drew. I just happened accross this little tidbit a few days after reading that post.
Jimmy Page has admitted to using his "58 Tele and a Supro amp to record most of the first two Led Zeppelin albums. Only Problem is he never really copped as to which model it was. An associate who was there during the recording of Led Zep II couldnt remember the model number but recalled it as being a grey and sliver tiny little bastard. Which matches the s6616 model which runs with a small 6 X 9 inch speaker. Others claimed it was a 1 X 12 version. I have played through the 1 X 12 version and it does indeed sound like the early Page sound.
Either way, he did in later days use a small Fender combo amp as well.
