My Entry Into Computer Recording
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Posted on Aug 29, 2003 07:48 pm
BennisHahn
Ex-Wookie
Member Since: Aug 29, 2003
Ok, so I have decided to bite the bullet and get into PC based recording. After reading lots of info, I have general idea of what I need but really need someone who is experienced to help me decide what to get.\
Now from what I have read on this site, it is best to go with you're own custom built computer. For me this is not an option. I have about $1,400 to spend on everything. I have been looking into name-brand comps and have found this Compaq for $650:
2.2ghz P4
512 ram
80gig 7200rpm HD
win XP
and the usual screen/crappy graphics, sound cards/ect...
I was just going to replace the bad sound card with a good one. I am thinking I just need one with a couple I/O's and budget about $200 for it. Any ideas?
Now, I want to use Adobe Auditions (was Cool Edit Pro) just because I like the interface/features better. I am a guitar player, not into midi so I really don't want to spend time messing with arming a track and such, I just want to play. This runs at $300.
This leaves $250 for a mixer, thinking about a behringer 6 or 8 channel that will run me about $100-$120. I am wondering if I need some sort of compressor for vocals/drums (when I record live ones), and if so what a good one feature/quality to price ($150) ratio?
All this doesn't include moniters/mics (need a couple god ones) and things like that but I wasn't expecting it to so that’s no problem. I mainly record just me and I do rock/jazz type stuff. I currently use Fruity Loops for my drums as I don't have any. Last question would be, how portable would this be. 99.9% of the time it would stay in place in my room but on the off chance my band gets some songs together, how easily would I be able to move it?
Thanks for any and all replies!
-Bennis
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olddogMember
Since: Jul 02, 2003
Aug 29, 2003 08:51 pm I just assembled my home studio and here is what I bought.
HP A250N $1000 Includes:
P4 w/HT 2.6GHZ 800MHZ FSB
DVD/RW
512MB DDR RAM
120GB 7200RPM HD
Nvidia GF4 MX440
CEP 2.1 $249
SB Audigy 2 $100 (Can be found for about $75 online OEM
So far I have monitored 10 tracks while adding an 11th with no noticible phasing/delay problems.
With my old system P3 1GHZ, I also couldn't add real time effects beyond 1 each for about 3 tracks. So far have ~3 effects + compression running for each of 11 tracks with no dropouts at all.
I don't think it can be stressed enough to get the most powerful system you can afford and work on getting the other stuff as you can afford it. The system you looking at is likely a 533MHZ FSB which is a much slower in terms of memory speed.
I've been using the compression in CEP and it's seems to be working out pretty well. I do plan on getting some outboard equipment and probably an MAudio Delta 44, but for now just the above is working great. The Audigy 2 at under $100 bucks is imo a very good card with low CPU useage & latency.
Aug 29, 2003 09:10 pm Hello! Welcome to the forum :)
First of all, it looks like the Compaq you mentioned would be a great choice (Assuming it has a CDR drive). All the specs look up to par for recording (Better than what I have).
For a soundcard, I would recommend the M-Audio Audiophile (2 analog inputs). I believe it's about $150. There are many other options, but to keep it simple, M-Audio's stuff sounds great and is also inexpensive. You might also consider the Delta 44 ($230, 4 analog ins), which I have, if you think you might need to record more than one or two tracks simultaneously. This is pretty much a necessity if you want to record drums for a band.
Now, here things get a little complicated. You could get a mixer, or you could just buy some higher quality mic pre-amps. If you go with the Audiophile, I would personally recommend buying a mixer. (The Behringer UB series is good). This will allow you to mix in more than two channels down to the two inputs of the sound card if absolutely necessary. If you go with the Delta 44, you might want to go with a set of pre-amps (I've been looking at the ART TPS tube pre-amp system lately-- $180-- you would need two) and a headphone amp, or you could just buy a larger mixer. The largest Behringer UB mixer ($300) has 4 subgroups that would allow you to utilize all of the channels on your soundcard.
As for a compressor, yes, a compressor would be very nice :) I personally use the Behringer Composer Pro ($80-$100), and think it makes a huge difference recording anything. It's got a ton of features including noise gate and peak limiting. I haven't used any other compressors yet, but I'm very happy with the purchase so far. A compressor would be a wise purchase.
Also, never underestimate the cost of patch cables! Monster cables cost a ton. I use Live Wires and don't have any trouble with noise, but it depends on your circumstances. Live Wires cables are much less expensive though.
About the portability-- It wouldn't be very portable, although it depends. If you get everything nicely into a rack or just keep things neat and organized, it could be. I would recommend bringing the band to wherever the equipment is, though. Not the other way around :)
Another thing you could do is just scrap everything I just said and invest in something like the Aardvark Q10. It's a soundcard with 8 inputs, each with their own preamp. It runs for about $800, but it eliminates the need for an external mixer or preamps, and provides monitoring and routing options right on the box. It might be a wiser choice depending on your circumstances. All you would need to buy (At least until you wanted to upgrade the preamps or something) is a compressor which could go right through the effects loop provided on the back of the breakout box that inserts the compressor inbetween the pre-amps and digital converters. It's up to you.
Most important of all-- Shop around! Go to Musiciansfriend.com and just check out all the brands. It can become very entertaining, really. Have fun and good luck! I hope you found this post informative :)
-Porp
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Aug 29, 2003 09:37 pm Okay, I answered your mixer question in this thread... www.homerecordingconnecti...fa54a263f962351
As for the other questions.
Multiple I/O soundcard.
Depends on how many seperate signals you want / need to be able to record simultaneously. Have a look at the M-Audio Delta Range, I'm pretty sure everyone around here will agree with me and say M-Audio did good.
o Audiophile 2496 - www.musiciansfriend.com/s...l/base_id/52393 - 2 mono inputs, 2 mono outputs. MIDI.
o Delta 44 - www.musiciansfriend.com/s...l/base_id/52398 - 4 mono inputs, 4 mono outputs.
o Delta 66 - www.musiciansfriend.com/s...l/base_id/52397 - 6 mono inputs (2 on S/PDIF), 6 mono ouptus (2 on S/PDIF).
When talking about drum recording, more inputs = better, but unfortunatly it comes at a price.
software
$300 is a lot of your budget, you may be wiser starting on a cheaper application such as Inuative MX, there is a small following for it round here who would be happy to assist.
compressor
Given your budget, I would say leave it for the moment - you can live without a compressor if you are sensible / careful at the recording stage. However, reccomended low cost compressors:
o dbX266xL - www.musiciansfriend.com/s...ch/d=tp?q=266xl - I own one.
o Behringer Autocomp - www.musiciansfriend.com/s...l/base_id/35465 - cheap as chips, good ol' behringer :)
o Behringer MDX4600 Multicomp PRO-XL - www.musiciansfriend.com/s...l/base_id/90061 - 4 channels of compression as opposed to 2.
Monitors
You can monitor on pretty much anything to begin with. Headphones are a good purchase, because decent cans will only set you back £40 (I reccomend sennheiser, good make). For about 3 years I used a pair of Wharfdale Hi-Fi speakers and a poineer amp and I did some reasonable material on it. I purchased a pair of Tannoy Reveal Actives last week and haven't stoped smiling yet. So, good low cost, active monitoring (that doesn't sound pants).
o Behringer Truth - www.musiciansfriend.com/s...behringer+truth - Good cost effecitve monitors, bottom end is a little too hyped for my liking.
o Tannoy Reveal Active - www.musiciansfriend.com/s...l/base_id/58028 - A bit more costly, a bit more better.
I found this article to be very informative whilst searching for my new monitors: studio-central.com/studio_monitors.htm (Studio-Central.com)
Mics
Do you own any mics? If you don't then this is gonna be the one that could hurt. My normal advice would be to purchase one good condensor and one good dynamic first. Armed with one of each, you could record the world.
Rode NT-1 - www.musiciansfriend.com/s...l/base_id/88744 - Incredibly detailed and sensitive, brilliant value for money. I own one :)
Behringer B-1 - www.musiciansfriend.com/s...l/base_id/73068 - It wants to be an NT-1 so hard it looks just like it :\ Cheaper...
Sure SM57 - www.musiciansfriend.com/s...l/base_id/35414 - I dare you to not have one...
It's not quite that simple (or cheap) when you are recording drums. Oh no, you've got to get 6 mics (I use 8 on a kit personally) - you will need 2 dynamics - one for the kick (SM57 will work - AKG D112 is perffered - www.musiciansfriend.com/s...l/base_id/38625 )and the snare (SM57 is great here). 2 condensors to act as overheads (2 NT-1's would be great, but obviously costly. C1000S's make good cost effective overheads - www.musiciansfriend.com/s...l/base_id/35405 ). And then additional mics for toms (AKG C418's perform well on a budget - www.musiciansfriend.com/s...l/base_id/38623 ) and possibly an added ambiance mic (a large diaphram condensor will work well here - see NT-1 above).
Obviously all these mics are going to cost a fortune seperatly. Luckily packages have been made - AKG offer their "Big Drum Mic Set" which contains all the mics you will initially need (bar an SM57 for the snare).
Although cheaper mics can be purchased, your recordings will ultimatly suffer. It depends how professional you want the recordings to sound I guess.
That's quite a bit I've typed here, but if you have anymore questions feel free to ask.
hope this helps.
jues
Aug 29, 2003 10:09 pm Wow, he's got a whole book to read, now! Let me just add my personal recommendation for flat-response headphones while I'm still floating around-- The Audio Technica ATM40fs studio headphones. Try them out on top of the ones Jues recommended. I've tried them and loved them.
Aug 29, 2003 10:37 pm Wow, you all are great!
You all really did take it to heart when I said I would be recording a drum kit. In reality, it would be very, very rare that I would have to (in the foreseeable future) mic one so that isn't a huge concern of mine.
On the issue of sound cards; yes I have heard good things of M-Audio and that is saying something considering I m not really in the business yet. I don't think I would utilize all the I/O's that the Delta 66 offers and considering I like real faders/knobs under my fingers, it wouldn't be a hassle for me to go mess with a mixer a bit more.
As for monitors, at first I would use a very old pair of Koss's (30ish years old). They sound better then anything I have tried short of the triports from boss so i think they shall work. I wouldn't get very expensive monitors because as I am just entering this field, my ears aren't good enough to tell the difference yet I should think.
As for movement. Well, my room physically isn't large enough tog et four guys in there with equipment + drums so I would have to more at least to the basement anyway to record.
jues: When I was asking about panning with a mixer, I meant:
Say I pan a tom hard left and a snare 50% right. When I send these to the soundcard via AUX, 1/4" will they stay panned while I record? Or will they record as center and I will have to pan them in the computer? Also, with a mixer, I am hoping to decrease the amt of trips between my arm and the back of my computer.
Note on cables: yes I was planning on getting higher quality cables but not monster cables. The "its bigger so it's faster/better" theory doesn't hold water with my when the signal is only traveling two feet.
-Bennis
Aug 29, 2003 10:54 pm It depends how you have it set up in your multitracker. If you arm one track to record in stereo, you won't have to do any panning. If you arm 2 seperate tracks to mono, then you just slide over the pan 100% L or R on each one. I recommend doing in mono so that you have more flexibility if you want to make one side louder or not panned so far over or something of the sort. If you do this using your mixers main outputs than that will be the result. It won't really work with auxes. You'd have to fool around with both aux 1 and 2's volumes on the board to achieve the same panning effect on the mixer. I would recommend using either the mains or a pair of subgroups rather than the auxes.
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Aug 29, 2003 11:57 pm i can't yet see where i would ever use SP/DIF connections, and this is the only difference between the Delta 44 and the Delta 66...i think it's extremely misleading. it seems that one would tend to think that the 66 would have 6 analog ins.
ben - if you get the delta 44, you can use one of the inexpensive behringer mixers to get four separate tracks from drums, which gives you a whole new dimension when mixing and trying to blend the sound of each mic with the rest of the music. here's a thread:
www.homerecordingconnecti...=2638&frm=2
Aug 30, 2003 07:04 am Quote:
i can't yet see where i would ever use SP/DIF connections, and this is the only difference between the Delta 44 and the Delta 66...i think it's extremely misleading. it seems that one would tend to think that the 66 would have 6 analog ins.
It's not really that misleading, one S/PDIF in and out IS 2 in channels and 2 out channel...and actually depending on the set up that output could be 6 channels output!
I use S/PDIF quite often at times, and I suspect I will only start using it more. It's is a common interface to a DAT machine as well as a common output for 5.1 surround sound if you ever get into mixing in surround as I am starting to...which is where most of my usage has come from.
Oh, and BennisHahn, "collapse" is gonna flip when he sees you are using his avatar :-)
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Aug 30, 2003 08:32 am I use S/PDIF whenever I can - When I get the cash, I will be getting the S/PDIF expansion board for my new focusrite preamp.
S/PDIF connections ensure that your signal stays as pure an clean as possible - it's lovley!
jues.
Aug 30, 2003 08:43 am Oh, sure, now he takes "MyFungFu"'s avatar, hehehehe, no worries, I am just bustin on ya a little, you're the new guy Bennis :-) Might I always offer a hearty welcome to our little community here at HRC. We always love seeing new people, the bustin is just in good clean fun :-)
I agree with Jues, and to go even further Minkus, S/PDIF is also in use on some amp sims (Pod type thingies), preamps, like jues mentioned, and many didigtial effects processors. Don't under estimate the power of the S/PDIF...
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Aug 30, 2003 02:50 pm right on. i'll have to check it out sometime. in the meantime, i'm stuck in the mundane world of analog.
Aug 30, 2003 03:05 pm Doesn't the usefullness of S/PDIF kind of depend on the quality of the analog to digital converters in the piece of gear that is outputting the digital signal to the sound card? Does that make the convertion within the soundcard unecessary? I've just been wondering about this since it seems to me that the converters is your sound card would be better than the ones in the piece of gear outputting the digital signal. It kind of confuses me. On the other hand, with something like the POD or digital effects box, which needs to convert the signal to digital anyways (To perform its job), the S/PDIF would be very useful since it would prevent any signal degradation in the conversion from digital to analog and then back again. I don't understand its usefullness in the case of something like a pre-amp, though.
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Aug 30, 2003 03:13 pm i imagine that the converters in the preamp would be of excellent quality, otherwise they'd be useless. a delta series m-audio card doesn't have the best converters on the planet.
Aug 30, 2003 03:26 pm Quote:
Doesn't the usefullness of S/PDIF kind of depend on the quality of the analog to digital converters in the piece of gear that is outputting the digital signal to the sound card?
Well that pretty much stands true for any piece of gear, whether analog or digital, the quality always depends on the companents within it. For S/PDIF it is no different., BUT if you leave you ampsim via S/PDIF to the Delta 66 S/PDIF in, there IS no convertion taking place, it's from a digital out to a digital in, that is the beauty, if you run a PC-based...or digital-based on any sort, DAW, S/PDIF helps you keep your signal in the digital domain, without flipping back and forth between analog and digital whilst going in and out of all your processors and such...
Oh, and my M-Audio card S/PDIF jacks preform very well even under 5.1 mixing.
Aug 30, 2003 03:29 pm Oh, and BennisHahn, as far as the PC you are looking at, the worst thing I see about it is the brand..."Compaq" are not exactly widely known for being great performers. HP bought them so I presume they are, or will be getting better, but honestly, they don't like being upgraded (or some models, like I said, they play better with others now). Back when I was a PC tech (OK, back before AGP was even invented...) Compaq was the scariest word you could say to me...well, only second to "Packard Bell".
Be wary, and buy smart.
Dude, get a Dell or build your own (or HAVE one built) ;-)
Aug 30, 2003 04:03 pm MinkusMaz- Well, I know they aren't the best on the planet, but it seems like the converters are more than half of what the card is built for (Other than just being an interface). I mean, if you pay $230 for a Delta 44 and then you pay the same amount for an inexpensive pre-amp with digital outputs, it seems to me that you could expect the converters in the pre-amp would be of lesser quality than those in the sound card since the pre-amp's main job is not analog to digital conversion. Of course, if the pre-amp costed $1,000 then it might have better converters than the ones in the Delta card.
dB- I do understand that in the case of something like an amp sim or digital effects box, it would make a lot of sense to go through the digital outputs because the gear is digital by nature. I mentioned that in my last post. As far as something like a pre-amp goes, however, (which, if I'm not mistaken, is not a digital device) you'd just be going a few more feet before you reached the digital converters of the sound card, so it doesn't seem like paying more for digital outputs on analog gear makes any sense. Correct me if I'm wrong (Really, please do!)
Sep 01, 2003 06:41 pm Well, Considering I need a mouse, keyboard, and moniter, I can't really build my own comp because that would cost too much. And if I went with a dell, it would be twice as much. I have used compaqs and currently have one and an hp laptop (which I am on now) and have had no problems with them.
Another Q; If I import .wav files I made in fruity loops with them all panned, would they stay that way in Adobe Adu? or would they be imported as a mono track and therefore I would have to import each drum seperatly?
-Bennis
Sep 01, 2003 09:20 pm if you export as a stereo track, it should import as one also, if not, then I suggest replacing Adobe Adu (whatever that is)
Sep 01, 2003 09:36 pm Adobe Auditions (a.k.a. Adobe Adu) is apparently the new version of Cool Edit Pro:
Quote:
Now, I want to use Adobe Auditions (was Cool Edit Pro) just because I like the interface/features better.
Sep 02, 2003 06:59 am Oh, THAT is what they turned Cool Edit into...I heard they bought Sytriliums assets a while ago, but never heard what they did with them.
I also saw that now there is "Pinnacle Clean", so Pinnacle actually started releasing Steinbergs products under the Pinnacle brand...so I wonder if v5 of WaveLab will be "Pinnacle WaveLab"...or v7 of Sound Forge will be "Sony Sound Forge"...sheesh...
Thanks for the info Porp.
olddogMember
Since: Jul 02, 2003
Sep 02, 2003 09:50 am They will import as a stereo track on 1 track in Audition. You can pan the stereo image, apply effects etc. Or after you import you can split the stereo image on to 2 tracks.
Dan
J. SCOTTHelp I'm stuck in Utah!!!!!!!!!Member
Since: Dec 10, 2002
Sep 02, 2003 10:18 am Make sure you look into the "upgradability" of a Compaq. I am pretty sure you have to go through them to upgrade.
Sep 02, 2003 10:21 am I just tried a simple RAM upgrade on my neighbors PIII and it wouldn't even accept the RAM that came straight from Compaq.
Compaq's really suck UNLESS you are gonna use it as it is out of thebox forever, which NO home studio own ever will, cuz you CANNOT buy a compaq that comes with a decent sound card.
Sep 05, 2003 01:06 am i've known a few people who've had hell trying to install soundcards in Compaqs. I think the solution had something to do with a little jumper on the main board that physically disabled the soundcard ?? -j
for $600 you could built it yourself
Sep 05, 2003 06:01 am Jamie Garrett, where can I build one for that cheep? I have been to places like newegg and the one in the link mentioned above and its all around $800. The big things are the moniter/chip/win xp. all those I really *need* and can't give up.
Do you know of somewere I could find it for that cheap?
-Bennis
Sep 05, 2003 06:11 am PriceWatch.com www.pricewatch.com/ is where I always go looking for my PC component purchases.
Sep 05, 2003 08:13 pm right dB, pricewatch is great. And i spend alot of time browsing eBay for the perfect buy. You can buy a "bare bones" system for dirt cheap on there. and oh yeah.. i always forget about the monitor. i can get those for free :O)
