Song Writing Help
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Posted on Aug 12, 2008 08:51 am
gleamy
Member Since: Aug 12, 2008
Hi Everyone,
I am self taught at the guitar and have been trying to write songs for a while. I like to write catchy, simple 60's inspired tunes (ie. rolling stones, dylan).
Due to my extremely limited knowledge, I feel stuck in the same little tricks I've been doing with other songs.
All I really know is how to play major/minor/7 chords and a couple of blues scales.
Now, with these limited tools I can write something but it just all tends to be the same..
I usually start out playing chords.. say in the key of A.. Then I use the blues scale I know and play it in the key of A..
It just all sounds the same but with different variations and Im pretty bored with it.
So I have a couple of questions maybe some of you guys can help me with:
If you are playing chords in the Key of E for example, are the only scales that work over those chords also in the key of E?
If you are playings chords in a blues scale in a certain key, will the blues scale only work? or can you play say.. a pentatonic minor scale over those chords?
What are somethings I should learn? Instead of relying on the blues scale should I start learning Major scales, Pentatonic? etc.. Anything that you can think of?
I just really want to learn how rhythm guitar (chords) and a melody (lead) work together. If you have any suggestions that'd be great!
Thanks in Advance.. sorry if this sounds like a messy rant!
kyle
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pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Aug 12, 2008 10:04 am Here's some stuff that may help you out.
It gets quite busy, but there's good stuff in there if you want to spend time on it. I have one of his books from a few years ago, but alas, I haven't done much in it (yet).
www.sheetsofsound.net/
Another thing that will probably help, is to really listen to other types of music: country, irish, island, etc. Listen for their construction, and you can see new ideas open up.
Also, I like to capo somewhere different, and noodle around for a few days. That usually kicks up a few new ideas.
HuePinnipedal Czar (: 3= Member
Since: Apr 11, 2004
Aug 12, 2008 10:15 am Quote:
If you are playing chords in the Key of E for example, are the only scales that work over those chords also in the key of E?
Not necessarily, take into acount what the keys both before and after your 'E', and you may find that either of those keys may offer scales to work with.
Quote:
If you are playings chords in a blues scale in a certain key, will the blues scale only work? or can you play say.. a pentatonic minor scale over those chords?
That, is entirely dependant upon what 'sound' you're looking for the work to convey . If you use a blues scale, then most likely your song will sound like a rock/blues thing... likewise, if you use somekind of, let's say, an arabian scale, the piece might reflect a psychodelic or even a psychotic feeling . Think of the intro riff to 'Pretty Tied Up' by GNR... it's still rock 'n roll .
Quote:
What are somethings I should learn? Instead of relying on the blues scale should I start learning Major scales, Pentatonic? etc.. Anything that you can think of?
Yes . Learn all you can, at a pace that will allow what you learn to be useful to you . Don't rush yourself . Play around with keys/scales that are appealing to you... before you know it, these 'new' notes you've picked up will work themselves into your writing .
I like to believe that the goal of most people who write their own music, is to write what I refer to as 'honest' music . That is, music that reflects the writers perspective of the work by making 'believable' references throughout . Convincing the listener that the procession of notes that make-up the work is the way it 'should' be... a combination of musical integrity, and originality is the formula . As you go along, finding out how 'you' write, you'll be able to discern what feels right, and what does not, and there'll be less guessing as to where you want to go with any given piece .
$.02
~Hue
Oh, and welcome to HRC .
Aug 12, 2008 06:09 pm gleamy,
you say you like to write simple 60s-style stuff. that being the case, you can know that you're going to mostly stick to a few kinds of chords in your songwriting, without getting too exotic at the chord level. if you're writing in the key of E, these chords are going to tend to be six of the seven chords that belong to that key, plus a few others.
check this out to learn the roman numeral system for chords:
www.zentao.com/guitar/theory/chord-scale.html
the six 'normal' chords in the key of E are: Emaj, Fsharp minor, Gsharp minor, Amajor, B7 (or simply B major without the 7th note), and Csharp minor. the final chord in the key of E would be Dsharp diminished, but it's common to just make that a D sharp minor instead, especially in pop and rock. in the key of E, these chords will always sound 'safe' as they come directly from the E major scale. if you play the E major scale, you'll see that these chords are all based on the scale steps. the order of the chords is: major, minor, minor, major, major, minor, and then diminished (which you can just make minor instead). stick a '7' after each of those chords to get the 7th chords belonging to the key. for example, if you want to do 7th chords instead of just major and minors, the ordering of the harmonious sounding 7th chords in any key would be: maj7, min7, min7, maj7, dominant7, min7, and then dim7 or just min7. do this for any key you're playing in to find the 'normal' chords for that key. build those types of chords in that order on each scale step, depending on what key you're in.
other chords your style of music can use easily include, if you're in the key of E, Cmaj and Gmaj. the Cmaj in this key comes from the blues scale, and the Gmaj comes from some other scale, i forget which, but these are easy to mix into straight major key harmony.
in the roman numeral system for chords, this chord set would be, all in all, for any key: I, ii, bIII, iii, IV, V7, bVI, vi, bVII, vii. the roman numerals refer to the number of the scale step, and the uppercase/lowercase means major or minor. bVI for example means to go to the sixth scale step of your key, flat the note so you're now on a note that doesn't belong to the key, and make a major chord with that note as the root.
these chords are the easiest chords to incorporate into the kind of music you're trying to do. knowing this system should let you find this chord set for any key you're in, and eventually it will let you be able to decide to use other chords, for instance bII, which in the key of E would be F major. moving between those two chords can give you a spanish sound or a metal sound. etc. every possible chord has a roman numeral, and in any key there are only 12 basic chords available to choose from.
as for scales...
if you are playing in the key of E, you can use the e major scale of course. and sometimes you will be able to use the E blues scale, and sometimes the E mixolydian scale, and sometimes the E phrygian scale. that's the simple answer, but it leaves out a lot. if you're hovering on an e major chord, reaching for the G note (from the E blues scale) will clash. but if you happen to try using that bIII chord from the blues scale in your song (the G maj chord if you're in the key of E) then suddenly it'll work. you should be able to hit the bII note (F, in the key of E) from the phrygian scale even if you're just hanging out on an E maj chord, though. the idea i'm trying to get to is to think of any E scale as being potentially open to you at any time, depending on what chords are sounding at that moment. as long as a scale note doesn't clash with one of the chord notes being played at that moment, you might get away with it.
what i do is i say 'ok, this song is clearly revolving around the E maj chord; it keeps returning to that chord and the song is gravitating toward it, so i'm going to keep this E note under my thumb and think of it as my 'home' note for solos. then i'm going to think in terms of numbers for scale notes. the E is the 1 note of whatever E scale i'm about to dip into. if i know the song is going to hit a bIII chord in a minute, i know that that chord is taken from the blues scale and that the bIII note will become available for a second or two when that chord sounds. so i'll deviate from the E major scale there and instead of playing the '3' note from that scale, i'll flat it and make it b3 instead.
what's more, you can take it to still another level, thinking of scales spiraling up off of whatever chord you're playing at the moment. if your song's verse is revolving around E major but your chorus is revolving around A major, that's the IV chord in the key of E, and it's going to sound like the new home chord rather than E because you keep returning to it as the first chord of your chorus chord cycle. so you'll want to 'return,' with your soloing during this chorus, to A rather than E, because the ear is coming to rest on A, not E, because A is the chord you're treating as the home chord. so now you're still using the notes of the e major scale for the most part, but you're treating A as the home note for your soloing. suddenly you might want to reach for the phrygian note for THAT chord, which is the note one half step up. if your chord is A, the next note up is A flat.
if you get a feel for scales as numbers instead of letters, you have the ability to just always think '12345678' (the major scale) and then reach in and flat or sharp those notes at will, depending on what the chord is. it's like dipping into other scales when you get the chance, but not doing a sea-change over to another scale. it's better because it will prevent you from just doing scale runs. your solos won't sound like you're playing a familar scale we've all heard before, and in the up/down sequence we all know; instead it will sound like you're deliberately choosing specific melodies based on what will fit with the chords that are sounding.
almost any note is available as a passing tone, and this way of thinking keeps you thinking of possibilities. it probably looks very confusing written out like this, but once you get in the habit of thinking in scale steps and intervals, it ends up being way simpler, because instead of a million chords, there are only 12, and only 12 scale steps too. the challenge is just shifting that information to your new key.
Aug 12, 2008 06:38 pm oh, also, you said:
"What are somethings I should learn? Instead of relying on the blues scale should I start learning Major scales, Pentatonic? etc.. Anything that you can think of?"
you make that sound like a big chore, and it will be if you approach it like the music books and guitar teachers say you should, if you spend time practicing the scales in all the positions, etc. i don't recommend that because it ends up being finger training and pattern memorization. the easy way to learn scales is to learn their structure instead of their particulars. you'll learn just a few pieces of information for each scale which will let you use that scale at will.
for example, if the structure of the major scale is: whole step, whole step, half step, whole, whole, whole, half, you know how to make one starting from any location. you call those steps 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 and you commit these two pieces of information to memory as you will use them for the rest of your life.
now that you know that, you know all the other scales as simple deviations from that one master scale.
blues scale is: 1, b3, 4, b5, 5, b7, 8
pentatonic minor scale is: 1, b3, 4, 5, b7, 8
lydian is: 1, 2, 3, b5, 5, 6, 7, 8
every scale has its own formula, and they're easy to memorize because you will start to see each scale as the major scale with an alteration here and an alteration there, alterations which bring a particular flavor. 'b3' won't look like some vague number after a short while: it will come to signify the sound of a minor third, the tense and unresolved sound you find in the blues and in lots of rock. the numbers will start to equal moods, and they'll be very easy to remember.
this is the simplest way to learn scales: to actually learn the theory behind them. finger skills and ways to play them will occur to you, but you won't wind up stuck regurgitating runs and memorized patterns this way.
Aug 14, 2008 03:19 am argh this and the beatles post might turn out to be the last theory-related things i post at hrc.
no one seems to be into it ever.
Aug 14, 2008 08:29 am I was diggin on your info brother - I think there are a lot of lurkers here.
Steve
Aug 14, 2008 08:32 am I am into it, it's just not how I personally operate, or have much knowledge of, I just rock out...if it sounds good it is good...ya know?
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Aug 14, 2008 01:23 pm I love this site, check out the "Harmonizer->chords to scales" section, punch in your chord and it will give you "ideas".
If writing a song, punch in the chord progression for say the verse and click go, it will give you "ideas" of different scales you can use during said verse, I will usually not solo during a verse but it also helps come up with harmonies.
Nothing is ever set in stone, but I get some great ideas when stuck. I mostly like to rock out and play what sounds good like DB said, but sometimes a little nudge can help out.
jguitar.com/harmonizer/chord2scale
Aug 14, 2008 08:46 pm yeah db that's how i operate, too. this kind of theory goes hand in hand with ear playing. it's mostly just a way of orienting yourself. i remember getting upset, way back before i knew any theory, about a certain thing: i always wanted to find the 'very unusual' chord, the startling chord change. consequently i actually began ignoring the normal chords. it wasn't until i learned this stuff that i allowed myself to begin really using the V chord and the IV chord. which is laughable when you think about it. they're such important chords, and context is everything. but in my naivete, i used to dismiss them a lot since my goal was to sound 'weird.'
eventually, by learning this stuff, i discovered that all the songs i like the most are about 80 percent in key, with about 20 percent of the chords coming from other keys. but it's weird: you don't end up writing music by thinking about this stuff. you do, though, feel like you can trust your ear more. or at least i did. suddenly there were reasons certain things sounded powerful and melodic or weird and startling. i don't even need to know the specific reason most of the time--i don't analyze all my own songs--but because i looked at this stuff i now understand that it's all just intervals in relation to each other, an insight which paradoxically freed myself to trust almost whatever comes to mind.
hmm tripps i don't think i would like the chords to scales thing. thinking in terms of using a particular scale seems like it could keep you slaved to it, and possibly it could lead to playing scale runs as opposed to creating melodies?
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Aug 14, 2008 10:04 pm I started on the Beatle one and just haven't gotten back to it to post yet.
On the Theory thing. I think for me I tossed it out the window a couple years after I stopped taking piano lesson's. I do fall back to it once every 3 to 4 years though.
I will say though that I do use it sometimes when a client is having issues in song structure.
Aug 14, 2008 10:22 pm Personally, I do what ever sounds the most unorthodox to me,unless I'm making a platform for a different melody or instrument. But, I listen to a lot of jazz so that is common.
But, like dB said, do what you feel is good. Try new things that aren't in any of the knowledge that you know.
As Maynard James Keenan said, "I do a drug once, experience it, then figure out why it was that way, how I got there, and try to get there again with out the drug." Same concept here. Do what you think sounds kewl then, figure it out with the theory later.
Aug 15, 2008 11:11 pm that's what most people do actually, as i keep saying.
theory seems to be grossly misunderstood. those who criticize theory seem to believe that if they learn it, it will somehow hurt them. that's not true, though. you can have it both ways.
what really gets me is deciding it's somehow honorable to not learn it. while it's fine not to learn it if you don't want to, it's not fine to somehow insinuate that those who do learn it are somehow missing something important. that's laughable.
Aug 15, 2008 11:21 pm Ya know what's kinda funny though, what I have noticed, back when I was writing and jamming more than I am now (which is zero) is that I'd come up with some wicked cool riff, or really powerful chord progression, I'd play it for a bandmate (that was more technically knowledgeable than me) and he say "oh, yeah, that's the pentatonic mode of such and such a key" or something...so what sounds good, IS theoretically correct, I just don't know it writing it...
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Aug 15, 2008 11:25 pm Yep, if it sounds good it usually is good.
Forty, you are absolutely correct. I know several artist's that swear up and down they know nothing about theory and that is what makes their music better. But the truth is they have just gotten lucky and followed someone else's use of theory by using the same type of structure.
It does annoy me though as you stated that their are those that turn their nose up at theory as if it were a bad thing to learn and it might cripple their creative genius. To me that is a load of stuff. I am by no means a genius when it come to theory, but I ma pretty sure I know when to use it and when not to.
NightcapVeni, MIDI, ViciMember
Since: Jul 02, 2008
Aug 16, 2008 01:24 am I have to agree with fortymile. Theory is nothing more than an attempt to explain the laws why certain things in music work, sound good, jive, move people to tears etc.
A lot of folks think that true creativity can only come from total artistic freedom. In many cases this freedom opposes restrictions like theory. That would 'limit the creative process'. Of course, the opposite is often true. Things not done within a basic framework of laws will almost always fail.
True, there are people who are able to create without any knowledge of laws, rules or theory. Or so it seems. What those people have is talent. A talent is a natural gift of understanding what is needed to do it 'right'. Real talent is rare. Most of us, including me, have to learn the hard way.
End of rant. :-)
Aug 16, 2008 03:53 am try a different tuning (Dm or E or G are FUN)
it forces you to your ear instead of memorized pattern's that 'work'...
it's helped me alot and i've written my best lick ever in it.
great thread!
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Aug 16, 2008 06:41 am to me its not one thing that makes a song kick a**
Its from the moment it starts till its end and the journey in between.
You play a progresion of chords that kick a** in a song, without the rest of the band, or without those pivotal parts in the song that lead up to it, and all you've got is...well, chords played.
yeah, fair enough the choice of chords is very important but i think alot of people miss the mark because they havent thought about the song a whole.
The theory part is all good, but in theory, one shouldnt need to dredge up ANY theory whatsoever when it comes to creativity and knowing what to put next in a song.
You think about it, if everyone used theory to write songs, there'd be none of this, "wow! that is sooo wrong but it sounds so cool, how the hell did they come up with that?!"
For me i have found very little that "doesnt" fit.
But at the same time, a totally wrong note is just that.
I think you smashed the nail there though NightCap about the talent thing.
We all know what sounds great, but we all have different ways to get it there.
Either way, ya get it the end...or ya start again.
Love/Hate Music, its so universal.
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Aug 16, 2008 07:34 am Having said my piece about theory, without theory, the average dude would not have much chance coming up with say, an F Major arpeggio sweep on guitar by himself.
Izzy Dutch'The Flying Dutchman'Member
Since: Jan 11, 2006
Aug 16, 2008 09:22 am I know zero about theory, am not interested in it either - for me it takes the fun away.
I remember a quote from Gilby Clarke during his stint with Guns N' Roses and Duff McKagan: Gilby was asked what he learned most from playing with GN'R, he said always make sure the rhythm part behind the guitarsolo section is a new part of the song, not a chorus or verse. It helps the solo stand out. Duff McKagan said recently that when writing for Appetite Destruction they'd always made sure they the song had a really cool bridge. A good bridge was very important to them at the time he said, a song was nothing without a cool bridge.
NightcapVeni, MIDI, ViciMember
Since: Jul 02, 2008
Aug 16, 2008 02:51 pm Izzy, I don't know if you realize it, but your complete GN'R quote is about... musical theory! :-)
Like it or not, you are interested in theory because, like many of us, you want to find the things that 'work'.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Aug 16, 2008 08:44 pm Yep, gotta agree there.
Like I stated. I don't often make a conscious effort to use it but even then I use it without thinking about it.
I'm one of those lucky peep's that hear all the melodies, counter melodies, percussion and everything els in my head before I ever even lay the first track down. Or while laying a track down. It doesn't matter what I do, it just happens that way. Even if it is while working on someone else's music. Even when listening to others music or commercial music, I many times hear something different in the music then what is there.
That kind of stuff is what keeps me awake at night.
Aug 17, 2008 08:21 am i like what db said because it's true. people find theory with their ears. blind ear playing is really just about discovering 'laws' which have been codified before. it's not necessary to know theory explicitly to come up with cool stuff. people will find theory with their ears to various degrees. the more you play, the more you'll know it without really knowing it, and without ever being able to talk about it. you are learning theory all the time, whether you know it or not. the problem for me was that without theory, there wasn't a good way to remember it. a maneuver or a chord in one song wouldn't work in another, and i had no idea why. now i can generalize anything i discover so that i can always use an idea in any song.
what i like about theory is that it has given me a reference point. you know what really used to suck for me? you'd be jamming spontaneously and you'd do one of three possible things. 1. reach randomly for a chord or a note and totally fail, creating a terrible sound or mood. 2. reach randomly and discover something amazing and perfect. 3. sit back and be safe and play one of the 30 ingrained habitual things you already know.
none of this was acceptable to me. it wasn't productive. it was uncertain, and you couldn't really get any self esteem out of it, because *you* weren't writing the music half the time. accidents were doing the writing. now that's cool and stuff, but it bothered me that there was never any way to control what happened next. it did not feel like creativity half the time; it felt like groping in the dark, and it essentially made me feel lazy and unskilled.
i trust me ear far more, now that i know theory. it has tied itself in with my ear ability. so that now, if i want a certain sound that i hear in my head, i know where to reach to find it. this lets you be able to play right out of your head. what you hear, you play. it removes the instrument. it has also oriented me.
i'm cool with people not knowing theory or being intimidated by it or being afraid of diving in, or lazy, or just the feeling of it being an utter headache and something you have no desire to learn. but i just hate the idea that knowing theory is somehow bad. it can be, but only for those who don't have any sort of ear or originality in the first place. it's real easy to start following recipes if that's all you are inherently capable of doing. those sorts have given theory a bad name.
Oct 17, 2008 01:13 pm I agree with trying out different tunings or using a capo it really gets rid of the monotany of the writing process.
I had the same problem with my originals alot of them all sounded so similar its hard to sound different being that your style of playing is just that "your style".
Also try to incorporate different styles into your originals I too rock out on some blues from time to time with my buddy who plays harmonica. For example I try to give the songs like a heavier edge for one tune then another I would try to sound more melodic.
And as far as the scales go I would learn as many as you can (you can never learn to many). Just dont think about it to much during the writing process just play whatever you feel at the time if it sounds good than use it. Just let it come natural what you learn will come out at the right time. Dont go by the books basically just take what you've learned and store it in the back of your mind and just rock out!
Enjoy playing and have fun =)
guitar_chris
