Guitar Soloing question
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Posted on Jan 04, 2008 04:11 pm
mclir9
www.witchsmark.com
Member Since: Aug 13, 2006
When you play a solo with any instrument, should you be performing the solo in scales that correspond to the Key of the Music or should a solo follow the chords in the background rhythm? To clarify, if a band is playing a song in the Key of G, and playing a G-C-D progression, could you totally do a complete solo using a G Major Pentatonic scale, or should you for instance change the Scale to reflect the Chord being played, so when the rhythm is on the C, the scale would then change to a C Major Pentatonic.
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TallChapAnswer:On a good day, lipstick.Member
Since: Jun 24, 2004
Jan 04, 2008 04:43 pm I'm not too versed on the intricacies of the circle of fifths and all that.
As a "hack" I just play what sounds good.
That, after all, is the result we're all looking for right?
If you listen to any great rock album you'll hear all sorts of keys and stuff in solos that just don't jibe with the chord structure. However, the solo sounds phenomenal.
Feel, and tone...
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Jan 04, 2008 04:59 pm A lot of times, yes, in a I-IV-V structure, I'll switch to the IV chord when rhythm goes to the IV chord.
But, it can kinda get stale following the rhythm around. So after a bit, you tend to start getting different runs, instead of just IV pent.
YMMV, IMO, etc.
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Jan 04, 2008 05:20 pm I'm pretty much in agreement with you guys...I mean it depends on the song and the feel that you're going for. I find that soloing in the same scale is a little boring but can be made interesting by the right guitarist (see Jerry Garcia) but like PJK says following the chords around gets a little conspicuous to the listener pretty quickly.
I say mix the two techniques to taste! Don't forget accidentals and other notes that aren't in the key. They can add interesting twists and also help transition from phrase to phrase.
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Jan 04, 2008 06:05 pm Same, I follow it to a point but add odd notes, bends and sometimes even jump to a different scale but in the same key.
olddogMember
Since: Jul 02, 2003
Jan 04, 2008 08:15 pm I just use what sounds good to me, I don't know enough theory or scales to do it any other way. :)
Dan
RandalMcFloydI wish I had a profile pictureInactive
Since: Nov 11, 2007
Jan 05, 2008 12:04 am Using the chords to improvise gets really complicated.
Just improvise with a scale and you'll learn to add or drop certain notes from it at certain times.
cruxTypo SzarMember
Since: Jul 04, 2002
Jan 05, 2008 05:45 am
I learned that chords can help you increase the amount of notes ur allowed to play, such as in the C scale, which has no flats or sharps. If your progression is C Em G D, the G and D will permit u to use F# during ur solo over those chords coz the chords contain those notes.
Also there r modes and all those theories which if u learn them to an extremely fluent ull be able to use a totally chromatic scale to solo, which is more or less y jazz players can play such seemingly random notes and still sound on key or "make sense" to say teh least.
This could have been a very bad explanation, but yeah i know the idea is out there somewhere.
mclir9www.witchsmark.comMember
Since: Aug 13, 2006
Jan 05, 2008 08:20 am So then it's gonna be best to just play scale positions within the key of the song. So, if the song is in G, I should stick to playing whatever scale and pattern in the Key of G. If I am playing a scale in the Key of G, no matter what chord the band is playing in the key of G, I should be able to follow and basically stay in key correct?
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Jan 05, 2008 08:56 am Well, I'd say what's gonna be best is you try it yourself, and see what you think is best. Your style will most certainly not be like anyone else's on here.
You just gotta spend time on it. Loop a simple drum and bass part, and noodle around on it for a week or two. Then switch the d&b to something totally different, and noodle around on that for a week or two.
Most of the time, it's great fun, and really lets you see what 'style' you're leaning towards. And you'll start seeing what progressions go with what chord structures.
It's more of a 'pick it up as you go' kind of thing, instead of a 'i plan on doing this type of progression' type of thing. It's more about 'feel' than learning.
mclir9www.witchsmark.comMember
Since: Aug 13, 2006
Jan 05, 2008 09:48 am I am beginning to realize that everything musically works this way. There is nothing set in stone, everything from playing to recording is up for grabs and open to whatever a person decides to put into it. I just have to break free of my WANT SOMETHING SET IN STONE ways.
Thanks for the help peeps.
Jan 05, 2008 09:55 am You'd be well served in loosing that attitude in all aspects of life...the only thing set in stone are taxes and eventual death, everything else is subject to negotiation, experimentation and seeing what works best for you.
Jan 05, 2008 11:37 am I've said this before, but it's still true: there are no such things as wrong notes. But there are poor choices.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jan 05, 2008 10:02 pm All answers are correct.
I have always been and shall forever be on the edge of the experimenting thing. I did learn theory partly while playing piano, but ended up tossing it out the window in favor of stretching the boundaries of what music can do.
As stated there is no right way, only bad choices, fix the bad choices by stretching it or slamming the whammy bar. I have several friends that are excellent guitar players and you never even see them flinch when a sour note starts, they simply move it till it fits.
And yes, learning to play like a jazz player is a huge help. They do have set scales as well, but rarely will you find one being followed.
Go have a listen to some of trumpeter Miles Davis work. You will find him wondering aimlessly through many different scales while his band would simply jam a three note progression. Sometimes slowly and other times at a more rapid pace. But always it seemed to just go everywhere. And it always fit.
GregorMember
Since: Jan 08, 2004
Jan 05, 2008 10:37 pm Play what sounds good to you, don't follow a formula...remember...there are no rules in rock n roll! It's all about your expression!
Jan 05, 2008 11:18 pm I tend to prefer a short, simple repeating riff or lead over the changing chords, but that's just the screeching weasel fan talking.
Also, I'm not exactly a guitar hero.
cruxTypo SzarMember
Since: Jul 04, 2002
Jan 06, 2008 12:12 am
To elaborate alittle on what i said before incorporating the other comments, if u used every SET IN STONE rule of music, like really on the level of jazz players and maybe classic composers, u would end up back where u started with no rules.
Modes and alternate scales and things make it possible to play any note any time in any key, the "rules" just help u to make "better choices".
Quick example is, u can solo all the time in the key of G using the E blues scale which contains a ton of notes that arent in G and it would make sense as long as u were running up and down that scale.
RandalMcFloydI wish I had a profile pictureInactive
Since: Nov 11, 2007
Jan 06, 2008 12:40 am Yeah, there ARE no wrong notes. I don't improvise on my guitar as much as I do my bari sax and sometimes I like playing unusual, almost clashing notes to make it more unique. The "clash" isn't always bad...sometimes you can make it work as representing an emotion or being having an abstract symbolism to something else.
If that make sense it's 'cause I'm really tired.
Jan 06, 2008 03:41 pm Quote:
When you play a solo with any instrument, should you be performing the solo in scales that correspond to the Key of the Music or should a solo follow the chords in the background rhythm? To clarify, if a band is playing a song in the Key of G, and playing a G-C-D progression, could you totally do a complete solo using a G Major Pentatonic scale, or should you for instance change the Scale to reflect the Chord being played, so when the rhythm is on the C, the scale would then change to a C Major Pentatonic.
you can almost always use chord tones in your soloing.
but the only note that differs in your example there is f/fsharp, the single difference between the key of c and key of g. in your example, i dunno what would happen unless i try it. but i note that if you were to hang on the f sharp which is the seventh note of the g scale as the c chord comes up, that note will act as an augmented fourth, which, i would imagine, could sound cool but only if it's momentary. it could be used as a passing tone. but if your choice at that moment is f or f sharp (if you want to limit yourself to those two notes at that one moment) you will probably have to actually play the f, which belongs to the c chord, not the f sharp. this is assuming you're gonna hang there for more than a moment. of course in practice, you probably wouldn't do this at all. all of the other notes in the key of g and in the key of c will work over either chord because those scales differ by just that one note.
generally i think it's worth it instead to think just about staying in a single scale and then reaching about to sub in notes that appear in certain other chords. this is because chords change quickly a lot of times, and you're gonna basically always be in the key of the song as far as the chords of the song go. departures in the chords will be momentary in most cases. a single chord that's technically not a member of the key, but appearing for just an instant. so with the soloing, because this is what usually happens, i think it makes more sense if you play from that point of view too, staying with the key but venturing briefly outside of it where appropriate. if you deliberately run away from your tonal center (which is what your post is about) you're just gonna get lost very quickly. you might not make it 'back' in time as you try to think this stuff through. it requires too much thinking and you also you often just end up sounding like youre playing scales.
i think the skill to develop involves being aware of the most stable chord in a section while also being aware of where that stability is GOING to go, in the next section. for example, the tonic chord of a piece is technically the chord that the key is named after. but often a new section will make it 'appear' to change to some other chord within the key. the tonal center will be redefined, say, on the chorus. things may stop 'revolving' around the I chord and instead might start revolving around the IV chord, for the chorus. that might be the new chord which the harmony revolves around for that section. this happens a lot. if this move from I to IV (for the 'main chorus chord') happens in a song in the key of c, you're gonna end up playing some sort of F scale, most likely. but the thing is that it's still just the fourth mode of the c scale. you may find yourself playing notes f, g, a, b, c, d, and e, but treating f as the note of resolution. here and there in that section, there may be a chord which contains a non-c-major note. you may choose to accent that note by playing it on your solo instrument as a sort of lead-in note, or you may hang on it as that chord comes and goes, or whatever. but in the end unless the song is really bizarre, you're still gonna be mostly in key. the chorus chords are going to mostly come from the key of c major, with one or two outlier chords. these are pop songs that we mostly do here, essentially, so they tend to be mainly in key with a few surprises here and there. i just try to be aware of the moving tonal center from section to section, and i realize that if a new section treats a chord other than the real tonic AS the tonic that i will probably end up using that the main note of that chord as a tone of resolution. and that i may still be playing the same old scale but in a different mode (though it's not worth it to me to think of it that way, as that is not how i use modes). and that other non-scale tones might be available to me here and there. if i care, i may try to figure out what those additional notes mean in terms of scale. for example, if a song that's clearly in the key of c contains a d major chord, i might be dimly aware that i'm playing a c major scale that deviate s here and there into a c lydian scale whenever i reach momentarily for the f sharp note.
i don't know if i'm making sense. it's been a long time since i've really done this. i just never consciously vary my scales. i know where my resolution tones are gonna be and i'll know the tones that are going to be 'safe' for the entire song more or less, and i'll be aware of modal possibilities within that scale. this way it's as if you're grounded in one scale but you're importing knowledge of other scales into it for a moment or two where required.
Feb 13, 2008 05:08 pm That can also depend on the style. Of course jazz guy is going to be playing scales with 13b9's and so on....but a country player and a rocker will probably stick closer to the pentatonics. It's really up to you. As a musician, I think you would be wise to learn how to solo over changes simply to increase your value as a guitar player (gig!) and as a musician etc etc. What that means is try using a different scale than a pentatonic scale. Since you are in G, simply using a G major scale will work on all 3 chords. And yes, the F# will sound fine on the C chord because it is a IV chord. Henry Mancini made that sound famous with Moon River (for example).
Have fun, play around and all that stuff. But certainly don't be afraid to try new theory out. Whatever you want to try, it can be made to work and sound cool.
