I, Columbine Killer
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Posted on Jan 16, 2007 07:36 am
dbmasters
Administrator Since: Apr 03, 2002
www.wired.com/news/column...ml?tw=rss.index
I am just curious what people here think of this game. I know it is a calculated risk even posting this here but I find it an interest moral and social conundrum.
My personal opinion, I think the dude has every right to make it, though, the smart marketer might take some of the proceeds (though there haven't been many as it wasn't a big seller) and donate them to some cause to help troubled kids or whatever...that said, people have every right to ***** about it too.
It takes a pretty low moral standard to make the movie though. Pretty heartless.
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Jan 16, 2007 08:12 am Maybe it gives some insight into why kids do these kinds of things. You think everything is going well, and then some kids pulls out a gun and blows people/himself away. Maybe by playing this game a kid could take out his aggressions in the virtual world. I don't know. I don't think I really believe that.
It seems to be in pretty poor taste, however.
This kind of thing has hit home around here recently. Just last week a high school sophomore (and a former student of mine) took a gun and tried to kill himself. Fortunately (or not, depending on how you look at it...I say fortunately) he missed his brain and hit his mouth/cheek instead.
Life goes on, but it'll never be the same.
Jan 16, 2007 08:17 am I certainly don't buy that...there are much healthier, more productive ways to release anger than pretending to kill people.
This is very cold and heartless of me I know, but I have never had much sympathy, compassion and patience for people that try to or do kill themselves. It's when they pass the judgement on somebody else for whatever reason that I have a problem.
A sentence of death is for a judge and/or jury to decide for somebody who has clearly demonstrated they deserve it, not for some teenage kids that has a grudge.
Jan 16, 2007 09:01 am As I said, I don't buy it either.
Unlike you, though, I have a lot of sympathy and compassion for kids who become so diheartened that they want to end it all. This is the second time this kind of thing has happened around here. I think we're all a little bit responsible when one of our youngsters can't handle life anymore. What in the heck makes a kid go from smiley and happy to suicidal? This makes no sense.
It's a crazy world, and a scary place to raise kids. All I can do is be the best parent I know how to be.
Jan 16, 2007 09:34 am Considering the majority of the time there is no intent to actually do it it makes it hard to care for me. Ultimately, it is sad, but on the other hand, suck it up and move on. Life's tough, and it doesn't get any easier once you're an adult.
It is sad that people (not just kids) find that as an actual answer...even as an angst filled teen I never saw that personally. I have had many friends and acquantances do it, the last on New Years Eve 2 years ago. My thoughts are never with them, my thoughts are always with their family and friends. It's a selfish act, and a stupid one...regardless of motivation.
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Jan 16, 2007 12:31 pm It doesn't seem like a very fun game. Pixelated graphics and only 5 types of enemies to kill. Hell, Castle Wolfenstein sounds more fun than that and its 15 years old.
I don't see why any gamer would even be interested in this. It falls into the same category as those ridiculous neo-Nazi games that pop up on the internet every once in a while. Not worth the splash its made.
Jan 16, 2007 01:13 pm Give me a back yard afternoon of "War" or "Cowboys & Indians" anytime, with pop guns and slingshots.
Now killing Nazis, Gooks, and Indians, that's just good, clean, old fashioned American FUN. With or without real weapons.
Note the sarcasm.
Jan 16, 2007 01:14 pm man, the lefties are hatin you!
Jan 16, 2007 01:21 pm Just trying to illustrate how interesting it is that no one raised an eyebrow back in the 60s (and way before that), when we were playing all those violent games. No one ever died either, though.
Jan 16, 2007 01:23 pm Oh, I know what you meant personally...I remember War, Cowboys and Indians, Smear the Queer, Bloody Murder and all sort of stuff...I'll tell ya though, if I ever raised my hand in actual anger to anyone I got disciplined (read: "*** kicked") for it.
That is where the problem lies today, no discipline...it today's society discipline somehow equal abuse, which surely isn't the case...a "time out" never teaches anyone anything.
Jan 16, 2007 02:02 pm Yep, Dad had a real nice hand-tooled leather belt, and wasn't afraid to yank it off on occasion. Mom used a yardstick. Not quite as effective, but it got yer attention.
Jan 16, 2007 02:11 pm My mother still has a 18" long 5/8" thick pine paddle hanging up on the wall...lol.
Jan 16, 2007 03:54 pm i know what you guys mean, and from an older teens opinion, this game is down right stupid and horribly wrong, i always hate when parents and political figures try to ban our outlaw games because of their content
sure some should be, not quite this game but it should be regulated or rated or somting, but a game like halo never made anyone do anything, this columbine game is a little more suggestive to a young mind then blasting aliens with imaginary and far fetched weapons.
anuther game that came out a long while ago was manhunt, and rightfully so, it was banned in some places.
in that game u go around smothering people with plastic bags and chiving people with makeshift everyday weapons,
that kind of thing makes someone contemplate doing somthing, mainly because its possible and not far fetched.
thats y theres normally a rating system, but with internet games its hard to put a limit on.
really all we can do is be mindfull of what our children do play and watch, because the fact of the matter is this:
its not video games alone that are doing this, its the snowball effect from, reading it to hearing it on the radio, then watching it on tv, then playing the video game, and to a severally "damaged child" (which beeing a teen these days i've seen quite a few people who have had some god awful lives, and had to talk a couple of my friends and the like out of doing somting like cutting themselves or worse) playing a graphic video game may give them an idea.
i had a great uncle, my grandfathers brother, that was in wwii. originally there were 3 of them, but on got wounded on d day and died in a pow camp, the other 2 got home, but only my grandfather truly survived the way, my grandfathers brother was so emotionally damaged from the war that he offed himself. but kids these days, they dont have a good enough reason i guess u could say,
but (and this is getting a little lengthy) really the highest pressure on kids these days i find from lots of experience's and friends, is the pounding pressure of (and no offense to anyone out there ;)) is the parents somtimes, lots of people i know have the pounding pressure of their parents on top of them for school, it drives kids literally insane
well i have lots to say but i think that jsut about sums it up
just need to get all of that out ;)
Jan 16, 2007 05:18 pm Yeah parents eh? Who'd choose 'em. Man, mine beat me, put me down, put my friends down, exclude me from society...
Eh...like dB says. Tough it out.
I look around me and my life is good. That doesn't stop me from bitchin'it up from time to time. Its more personalities and the fact that life is tough, i think.
Yeah some aren't lucky enough to have openly loving parents who'll do everything they can for you and still be able to tough it out when you go all stupid.
I think that schools are a breeding ground for people in distress bringing their **** down on others outside the home. Not everyone does it. But a lot do and most of the rest of us are in the firing line in one form or other.
Leaving school was one of the best things for me. It took a while to get back to normal. But man if you're talking pressure, that **** at school can't be beaten. Most of us get through it with just a few scars.
But man you don't want to be doing **** around my mother. She'll own your arse. Lol.
Jan 16, 2007 05:22 pm ya i know where ur coming from man ;)
Jan 16, 2007 05:24 pm You got a mother like mine? I feel for ya. Lol
Jan 16, 2007 05:30 pm lol , no actually, just everything else u said
my mom would never hit me ;)
cuz there'd be a class action lawsuit ;) hahahaa
Jan 16, 2007 05:37 pm yeah...joking man. Most people here know my mother.
I thought from the whole tenor of my post, that people would get how lucky I am to have such great parents (not perfect) but pretty good by comparison to what I see about.
HuePinnipedal Czar (: 3= Member
Since: Apr 11, 2004
Jan 16, 2007 06:39 pm When 'Postal 2' came out it actually made me physically sick to play it . There's just something about hitting a stranger in the head with a shovel, or setting them on fire that 'should' induce nausea, if you're wired correctly . That said, after a few rounds of the game, I got to be pretty good at it... but there was always that 'tension' behind pushing the button that makes the violent-act occour... even though it was just a video game .
Cowboys and Indians, WAR!, and Cops and Robbers all taught some kind of moral value, at least... even if it was somewhat askew .
Jan 16, 2007 06:42 pm ya, theres such a fine line between them nowadays :(
Jan 16, 2007 06:45 pm Same thing goes for that Grand Theft Auto game...Noize's kids play it (or did anyway) while I find an adult type of amusement in the concept, I find the fact these games are so widely acceptable somewhat troubling...ummm, no scratch that...very troubling.
Jan 16, 2007 07:01 pm definantly, something jsut doenst seem right about picking up a hooker, doing her in the back of your car, and then beating the money u paid out of her...
just doenst seem right does it...?
Jan 16, 2007 07:07 pm Absolutely not. They should've gotten a room.
Oh, here it comes...
Jan 16, 2007 07:52 pm And maybe Snow White and the Prince should have had extramarital affairs, gotten divorced, torn family and friends apart...
Children are exposed to heaps of ideas. You gonna not get the internet? You going to keep them home from school?
Surely its about values and beliefs, supervision and negotiation. I played grand theft auto, I also watched nearly all the disney movies growing up, even went to a couple of the happiest places on earth.
Am I gonna go about not taking responsibility for my actions, am I going to pretend I don't know right from wrong, even when there are challenging decisions to be made in the heat of the moment, do I believe I am going to marry a princess and live happily ever after in a castle? ummm...maybe ok to the last one. Lol.
Parenting, common sense, education level, personalities and imagination of the parents, parental committment, strong family unit and ties. Thats what kids need. They need it most when they are little and they need it most again when they are trying to find their own way.
Parenting has to be one of the hardest jobs on earth. No wonder disneyland exists.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jan 16, 2007 09:28 pm Hell ya Tadpui, Castle Wolfenstein was the greatest. did you ever got to play the very first version just named Wolfenstein? I still have the floppy set of both games. And it will play on XP as well just so ya know. That was the game that became the original Doom eventually. It rocked, good clean fun really, well sort of.
And ya dB is right on the boyz playing that GTA. I personally didn't care for it and their interest only lasted about 6 months and it was on to bigger and better.
I honestly don't have much thought on the Columbine game really. Kind of stupid, but at the same time after reading the article, maybe he was trying to make a point with it in the end.
Jan 16, 2007 09:46 pm i think it all comes down to what sanders said...
meltdown5Faze 2 StudiosMember
Since: Aug 15, 2005
Jan 16, 2007 09:59 pm parents spend to much time worrying about little things. more parents need to just teach there children morals and such and let them figure out life on there own. banning video games/movies/ect dont do ****, because they will play them at friends house's. your children arnt going to turn into killers becasue of movies/video games.
They will if you dont teach them any better.
HuePinnipedal Czar (: 3= Member
Since: Apr 11, 2004
Jan 16, 2007 10:05 pm Incidentally, the name of the company that produced Postal 2 is "Running With Scissors" .
I found that somewhat appropriate .
neoificIdiot KidMember
Since: Sep 27, 2006
Jan 16, 2007 10:08 pm I have found that high schoolers academically fall under one of these categories:
Indifferent: Accepting what he gets without putting forth much effort. Learning to phase out parents' complaints and have independent ideas, just blown out from parents pushing.
Pressured: Maintains standards because of influence in their life, whether it be other students' competition or parents pushing them
I, for one, fall under "Indifferent".
About the game: I don't believe that games have either direct or subliminal messages that get through to children. Maybe at a younger age, yes, while still developing (Such as 2nd grade, something extreme).
In a mentally stable person, games give ideas, just as any other form of entertainment does. They, however, do NOT influence people to act in reality as characters act in games!
However, if due to poor parenting or mental disability a child is unstable, and obsesses with games, they might have influence. In such a case it is more the parents' fault then the game's.
Jan 16, 2007 10:11 pm meltdown, while on the whole I agree with what you say about games not turning people into killers, you are on the flip side rushing to judgement on what are "little things". What may be minor to you may not be to me. What is an important moral to me may not be to you...
Just because what some parents may worry about seems little to you doesn't mean it is to them, their beliefs and their lifestyle. Judging what is little and what isn't is not right.
Just because GTA will turn kids into killers doesn't mean it's somehow less bad. It is making rape, murder and such crimes much more personal when you are playing the character doing it. And the game in question in this thread is making entertainment out of a horrific crime which I personally find offensive and disgusting.
Jan 16, 2007 10:37 pm Yeah, it's a little bit disgusting. Actually, it's a lot bit disgusting.
I'll sit on the fence regarding the consequences of the teenage sponge-head, though. Kids are impressionable to varying degrees, but then again, so are a lot of adults. Of course, I don't have a degree in psychology or sociology to back me up, but you don't really need a degree to see how utterly classless it is.
Society seems to be degenerating at an alarming pace.
Jan 16, 2007 10:38 pm You'll notice from my avatar I STILL LIKE MY HOLLYWOOD BLOOD AND GUTS, THOUGH!!
neoificIdiot KidMember
Since: Sep 27, 2006
Jan 16, 2007 10:57 pm Forms of entertainment are adapting, and a new audience of immature ignorant people is prevailing over old morals and values.
I was reading MLK's speeches on Monday, and I thought of how many people I know are misinterpreting his words and don't understand what he is saying.
I agree its disgusting and total crap, but it plays on social taboo, and allows people to do something that they normally wouldn't be able to. This is what makes it entertaining. In that sense, GTA is similar to any other RPG game.
Jan 17, 2007 12:29 am Indifference, neoific seems to me to be an excuse for not taking responsibility. Sounds more like someone unable to negotiate control of their life.
Not being able to influence your lifes outcomes is not a good road to be on, i think.
Pressured? Who isn't.
You see a hot chick walking towards you, slomo like, and you thinking 'look my way'...but against all expectations she does...and out of your mouth comes "gndhdkjad...i mean...bsafjhgsdaf." Lol.
Its not so much about crazy subliminal messages that it can groom some sorts of people. Fat people can't hear the signs they are full. Great for McD's, KFC etc. Some people won't hear the signs like Hue was talking about - the tension.
Parents worry cos thats their job. I seen parents who don't seem to care - who seem indifferent - their kids are maybe more at risk. Of course its hard to take all the time. But I'd rather have an active partcipating parent than an indifferent one. The upside is you get heaps of support, the downside is they don't know when to stop. Like dB said, its just one of those things you have to tough out.
Jan 17, 2007 06:03 am Yeah, social taboo is a big motivator to young, rebellious kids...it's the same reason pushing a "just say no to drugs" message is counter productive, it simply makes it that much more attractive to that same audience.
CS said it well, it's a parents job to be concerned, and to guide kids in the direction they see best fit, whether the kid see's it that way or not is a moot point. It may sound condescending, but often kids simply don't get it. I thought I had it alllllll figured out when I was 16, turns out I was wrong by most counts... Once you get out into the real world, working, paying your own bills, making your own way in life kids learn A LOT! It's a parents job to instill morals, work ethic and raise a productive member of society...the parents that don't generally wind up raising a drain on society...generally.
neoificIdiot KidMember
Since: Sep 27, 2006
Jan 17, 2007 08:16 am Cs lol, don't be worried about me. I'm 15.
Jan 17, 2007 11:21 am on a side note: one of the funniest/saddest things I've ever seen was a grown man (lets say mid 40's) arguing with a kid who was about 4-5 years old. Arguing.
When did discipline and/or absolute authority in parenting become something only good parents do instead of all parents?
Jan 17, 2007 03:58 pm I know you are neo. I'm 17. I am passionate about teenagers taking responsibility and being who they should be. Rather than succumbimg to pressures. Its not easy to stay positive but its necessary. dB is not wrong about being tough.
Not tough on the outside so much, like bullies. Its tough to put a vision together and head toward it without the challenges of obstacles getting in the way. And its tough when you start feeling like you're losing your way. You have to learn to stand firm and also apart form the negative.
Most kids don't know ****. They are very susceptible to peer pressure. I think mostly because they are at school all day. Parents may not be perfect, but they are who you should be able to rely on in hard times. I don't mean money and rides etc.
I got out of school at 15 after successfully passing the national exams here, and was lucky to be accepted at SAE (School of Audio Engineering). All my friends have just finished school and most are going to university next year, while I already have 3/4 of a degree in audio engineering. This year I became the studio manager and engineer in training at a recording studio. I couldn't have done any of that so young without suport.
Sometimes I really hate when I get lectured. Who doesn't. And I forget how good I have it. Who doesn't. And I forget how lucky I am. And sometimes my mouth engages before my brain can control it. But eh, thats life.
You have a bit of a barney, a few tears, upsets, you move on. I love my parents, but we're different people. I like my mates, but we're also different people. You have to try to be yourself in the nicest way you can find. And that is a challenge.
Its easy to blame parents cos it looks like some other kid has got better parents than you because they don't seem to care so much if Johnny doesn't come home at night. But man you know someone is lying. C'mon.
Anyway, what you reading lately? I really enjoyed A Beginner's Guide to Reality by Jim Baggott. If you've been reading MLK's speeches this should be a doddle for you, but much funnier. No disrespect to MLK. He was one of my mothers hero's when she was growing up.
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Jan 17, 2007 04:18 pm Wow Noize, wolfenstein on the apple was sooo much fun as a kid. I played return to also.. simply great games. BTW, I had two drives, daaaammmnnn
On the GTA stuff, it is indeed quite wrong at times, but I'll be damned if I don't enjoy the heck out of those games. It's all about ratings and enforcement of said ratings (by the stores that sell them and the parents who pay for them). My kids will play nintendo while the XBox and PS systems will be in my room :)
Jan 17, 2007 04:19 pm I wouldn't want to be a teenager again for anything. It is tough, it was tough, and it's getting tougher. That makes parents have to be tougher to do the right thing for their kids. And in today's society people are not always taught to accept responsibility for their actions, every therapist will find a way to blame somebody's problems on someone else...
Kids today, in ways, have a very thin skin, and in other ways have very thick skins, but the places it's productive to have either is reversed...
CS, it's nice to see a kid as centered as yourself, there aren't many. I hope I can raise my girls to be as logical and centered as yourself. If one wants to succeed in life (regardless of how one defines success) you need to be able to make decisions, stand by those decisions and take responsibility for the repercussions of them, be they good or bad. Without accepting the consequences of the bad you don't learn, and it makes enjoying the rewards of the good ones less enjoyable.
Jan 17, 2007 04:47 pm I've got to say, the few "kids" I've seen here definately have their stuff together much more than I did at that age.
Maybe there's hope after all.
neoificIdiot KidMember
Since: Sep 27, 2006
Jan 17, 2007 04:50 pm Yeah CS good job, hopefully Ill figure myself out.
Compared to the people around me, I'm a lot better. I have 4 friends over right now, and all four have been smoking mary since 2 years ago. 3 of them drink at last once a week moderate amounts, and 1 already smokes.
Whats interesting is how easily influenced they are by other people... its an epidemic :P
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Jan 17, 2007 05:05 pm (Quote: by JF Omalycat) "I've got to say, the few "kids" I've seen here definately have their stuff together much more than I did at that age.
Maybe there's hope after all. "
Thanks man, I really appreciate that. Or wait.. did you mean the kids under 32?
neoificIdiot KidMember
Since: Sep 27, 2006
Jan 17, 2007 05:13 pm Lol @ my custom user title.
Jan 17, 2007 06:33 pm Yeah sure neo. I seen people that do ****. But if you must do it. Do it right. Why reinvent the wheel in an age when info is freely available.
I was at a New Yeasr party where a group were taking hapsburg absinth 90% as shots. Thats their choice. But to my mind thats thick as hell and egocentric. Those guys don't give a **** that some of the rest of us worry about behaviour like that. They mistake immature for cool. But they'rw lucky they're part of a wider group that cares about them. So we kind of are doing the parents job by keeping an eye on them, from a distance, but still watching out for them. Nothing major, just in terms of getting help and the right help if necessary and timely help.
If you're gonna do anything, a little common sense goes a long way. Hapsburg is **** stuff comes out of eastern europe. Not at all the wormwood infusions the artists in 1800's france would take, from which the myth and mystery of absinth came about. What you looking to prove skulling absinth. That you don't know ****?
They can't see yet they're only trading off one master for another.
My inner circle of friends are different from yours I think. My best mate lies to get his way. Its a pain in the arse, but probably not going to require medical attention. Lol.
My parents are also part of my inner circle. Not that I check in or anything. But I know that if I needed to talk somehting over, they'd be there. I know they support me for who I am. You couldn't get that from mates smoking in your room. At 15 they're always trying to push yu into being someone or doing something they know they can't be or do at their own home.
Jan 17, 2007 06:52 pm dB - i have been lucky. I remember evenwhen Boysmum first came to hrc there were people who were a bit negative about me being so young and buying gear setting up a studio etc. And I think you said something like maybe she was supporting me and trying to inspire me. And that that was how you were going to interpret things and to give her room.
You could see what she was doing back then - what 3 years ago.
Even at home, when I decided to leave shcool at 15 and pursue audio engineering, other kids parents were real concerned. Because I'm part of a group that likes to do things 'right' - you know the 'one' path; the only true way etc etc - not religion (no offense intended).
My friends at school on the one hand wanted the mystery and freedom they perceived I had but were also limited by their own inculcated views about the 'one' way etc
This site is like an extension of my inner circle. In a virtual world full of the worst of personalities and the best, hrc is a safe environment for people my age up to 32. Lol. After that your palm flower turns black. hahahah (Logan's Run)
I've got friends here.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jan 17, 2007 07:28 pm I wont even start as I have preached it far too many times here in the past. But agree with CS and dB, it DOES all onto the parent. No matter what society thinks or says, it is the parent who is responsible for what their children do most times.
Although dB is well aware of the situation I just went through here and there are just some things even the most astute parent doesn't see until it is far too late. In my case things have turned for the much better, although it took a huge mistake by an un-named teenager for them to see the light.
But agree with dB as well, I would not at all want to be a teenager again. Not in these time anyway.
An hey CS, my palm flower is surely not black. At least the last time I looked anyway. :-)
Jan 17, 2007 07:34 pm Quote:
my palm flower is surely not black
He can't see it thru all the hair... :-D
HuePinnipedal Czar (: 3= Member
Since: Apr 11, 2004
Jan 17, 2007 07:54 pm heheh
SANCTUARY !!!!!!!!!
Jan 17, 2007 08:02 pm The sandman's coming to bring you to the sleepshop. Run, Noize, run! lol
neoificIdiot KidMember
Since: Sep 27, 2006
Jan 17, 2007 08:32 pm Yeah CS. Its sad. I have a friend right now in a coma because of this crap.
Jan 17, 2007 08:42 pm Thats very sad. All that potential. Hopefully people have learned from it. Hopefully your mate'll come out of the coma.
I recommend that book I mentioned earlier for a bit of light relief. It demystifies life in a humourous way and reveals life to be a major scam, kinda like The Matrix.
You have any particular interest in MLK?
neoificIdiot KidMember
Since: Sep 27, 2006
Jan 17, 2007 09:31 pm I'm white, if that makes a difference, but I've enjoyed studying him.
Sorry, was reading the Tennessee State Constitution, have to prepare a bill for my state's Youth Legislature thing (A virtual House/Senate for high schoolers to learn about government).
Sorry, I have enough books on my desk right now... Tennessee Blue Book, 700 pages of dry political statistics and laws, then The Origin of Species by Darwin.
Jan 17, 2007 09:49 pm I'm not sure whether to applaud our school system here or question it. I don't remember getting that heavy into how the government operates. Wait a minute, I left at 15.
Sounds like you've got plenty on. Good luck to you.
neoificIdiot KidMember
Since: Sep 27, 2006
Jan 17, 2007 10:23 pm Its by choice, I volunteered to participate. I do a LOT more extracurricular studies then curricular, the standard just doesn't interest me. At all. Which is why I am not motivated.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jan 17, 2007 10:28 pm Thanx guys, not like I'm not feeling old enough these days. Ya gotta go and rub it in.
OK, so I'm a little on the hairy side. Mostly gray now though. :-(
Jan 17, 2007 10:39 pm I hear ya. Most people I know are the same.
Its maybe a difference between our generation and previous ones. Their only choices were become a tertiary student to bum around. But first of all they had little choice but to stay at school, take the limited courses available and pass.
Or go to work.
We can basically bum around all we like. Not having to take much 'life' responsibility like having enough money to pay rent, save, organise mortgages etc.
I don't know about there. But we have lots of extracurricular activities available. Lots of groups and stuff like gifted children associations, performance spaces for bands, the rockquest etc.
Jan 17, 2007 10:42 pm Noize - you're only as old as your kids allow you to think you are.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jan 18, 2007 07:30 pm Thanx CS, I needed that.
