Copyright conunDRUM
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Posted on Jul 06, 2005 11:31 pm
Diamond Joe
Member Since: Feb 14, 2005
Having read about and heard the John Bonham out-takes I was wondering about the copyright issues of using them (or more likely small parts of them) in a track. The fact that they are not official releases makes me wonder if they are copyrighted in the traditional sense and therefore untouchable without record company permission. I guess it's almost a philosophical question - but what's the story? Who has a stake in them?
I asked this question a couple of months ago at another site and was shouted down by people who missed the point of my question, people who didn't approve of this kind of sampling, and in fact any kind of sampling at all. To be honest I doubt I would ever use a sample like this, I'm just interested in these types of questions.
Any thoughts?
Joe
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Jul 06, 2005 11:35 pm On some level the minute something is commited to paper, tape or recorded in any way the intellectual property belongs to the artist...that said, the artist is dead...and the artists' band is not around any more...so I dunno, it is a conundrum ain't it?
Jul 06, 2005 11:41 pm Maybe "The Estate of John Bonham" then...?
shepherdsampatron saint of quality footwearMember
Since: May 30, 2002
Jul 06, 2005 11:47 pm I'm not sure if this is correct or not but it seems to me that those clips should still be protected as long as the songs on the album are.
They are different performances of copyrighted material, they aren't never before heard uncopyrighted material.
Good question though, I'm curious now as to the answer.
shepherdsampatron saint of quality footwearMember
Since: May 30, 2002
Jul 06, 2005 11:53 pm Think of it this way, if the tracks in question weren't Bonzo's drum out-takes but instead were unused takes of Robert singing the words to "All of my love" I think you'd be pushing your luck to try and use them.
olddogMember
Since: Jul 02, 2003
Jul 07, 2005 02:46 am Techically the only thing you can copyright music wise is the lyrics & melody. But the CD they came off of as a collection is usually copyrighted too and it would probably fall under that, but the drums takes themselves most likely do not qualify for copyright, same as chord progressions, bass parts, etc.
Dan
RigsbyUltra MagnusMember
Since: Nov 13, 2004
Jul 07, 2005 04:35 am There are two parts to copyright with music, the musical work and the sound recording, you can't use the Bonham stuff without permission as it'll breach the copyright of the sound recording.
Jul 07, 2005 06:26 am But from whom do you obtain permission Rigsby? And I think that Olddog is right - I don't believe that copyright exists in the case of drums parts so coverage for it as a musical work doesn't apply.
Furthermore it's likely they didn't come off a CD but were leaked out of the studio surreptitiously (probably years ago) and as such copyright might not exist for them as a sound recording either; that is, how could a record company prove that the recordings belonged to them if there was nothing to link them directly back to the company (such as an official release of precisely the same material)?
Jul 07, 2005 06:36 am It's not just lyrics and melody, cases have been one prosecuting people for using chord structure as well...or course some have been lost as well...David Bowie vs. Vanilla Ice comes to mind...
RigsbyUltra MagnusMember
Since: Nov 13, 2004
Jul 07, 2005 08:40 am Diamond Joe, the original tapes will exist, plus they're from led zep tracks, it's not like it's going to be hard to prove, if it were me i wouldn't touch them for anything i intended to release, but it's your call. You'd be on the wrong side of copyright law though, sound recording copyright exists as soon as something is recorded. I'm sure olddog's right about musical work copyright.
All of this is kind of by-the-by surely, i mean you have no right to use the beats, so why would you? I feel like there's a moral aspect to these issues too, i wouldn't be too chuffed if i found one of my tracks on someone else's tune, would you?
Jul 07, 2005 08:43 am ya know what would be cool...while I have not heard the tapes, if one can get single drum hits out of that tape, and from that build a Bonham kit to use in FruityLoops, Battery, Velocity or whatever drum sequencer of choice...
shepherdsampatron saint of quality footwearMember
Since: May 30, 2002
Jul 07, 2005 08:43 am The drum tracks in question are not just Bonham playing random things that never became songs, they are out-takes from "In through the out door".
It's no different than taking out-takes of Page's guitar playing from the same songs and using them.
If the songs are still copyrighted (and they are) then I don't see how this is allowable. If you have a bootleg of them playing the songs live, those songs are still covered under the copyright laws even though they aren't the original studio versions, they do not need to copyright each individual performance of each song.
If that was the case then you would be free to play their music as long as it was your band playing the instruments and not a sample of the original material.
The drumlines, bass, vocals, guitars, etc... everything on those tracks is copyrighted.
RigsbyUltra MagnusMember
Since: Nov 13, 2004
Jul 07, 2005 08:45 am The record company would own all the out-takes sound recording copyrights by the way, so that'd be the place to start if you wanted to use them, but i understand that this is not necessarily going to lead to you using the Bonham things for your stuff.
Jul 07, 2005 08:45 am "patron saint of quality footwear"
Bwahahahahaha, St. Hubins rocks, shepherdsam!
shepherdsampatron saint of quality footwearMember
Since: May 30, 2002
Jul 07, 2005 10:19 am dB, I don't think I'll ever get tired of that movie.
Jul 07, 2005 10:21 am I think they should have recorded it in doubly.
shepherdsampatron saint of quality footwearMember
Since: May 30, 2002
Jul 07, 2005 10:23 am I'm sure I'm not the only one who after seeing the unnamed Metallica album thought, "How much more black could this be?"
Jul 07, 2005 10:26 am hehehehe, no, you are not alone.
I still think "Rock and Roll Creation" is one of the coolest tunes, it's high on my list of favorites...
Jul 08, 2005 11:45 am the way i see it, if you don't plan on selling it (or atleast more than a few hundred copys) then i say go for it....aslong as you aren't making money off of their tracks, then you'll stay under their radar....even if a million people download your song. add a bunch of effects and cut it up until it's not recognizable!
Jul 08, 2005 11:54 am Well, I dunno, whether or not anybody is on the radar, I hate to tell anyone to break the law...one musician "robbing" another is just bad karma...
bad karma sucks...
cooloFrisco's Most UnderratedMember
Since: Jan 28, 2003
Jul 08, 2005 02:26 pm On sampling:
It is my opinion that if you sample single notes or drum hits, and rearrange them into your own melodies or rhythms, you are not stealing. If you sample pieces of ideas or short musical phrases, that is getting into the area of stealing, and if you completely jack a melody or bassline, or drum pattern, or whatever, from start to finish, that is just not acceptable!
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
Jul 08, 2005 02:56 pm It certainly falls under a grey area. What about a single chord like the beginning of Hard Days Night? If you started a song the same way would it be legal?
Jul 09, 2005 10:47 pm >>If that was the case then you would be free to play their music as long as it was your band playing the instruments and not a sample of the original material.
It's been a few years since my music business classes in school (cursory overviews at best), but as I recall, it is totally legal to play parts from someone else's songs, whether in part or in whole, as long as YOU are actually playing them, not sampling. You are technically required to give them a fee for doing so, however. For example, if I want to cover a song on my CD, I can do it with or without permission of the copyright holder, but I have to pay them for it either way (most people DO get permission first, but it really doesn't matter). Sampling, however, is another story. That falls under the little "p" in a circle instead of the "c" in a circle. In addition to the ownership of a song, the performance of that song is protected as well, so technically using a one snare hit sample would require you to pay for it. Check your sample CD library - some are sold as "royalty free" or some similar statement, releasing the user from paying beyond the initial purchase. Others (look out for this) are not cleared, meaning that if you actually use it, you technically have to pay for it again (this was fairly common when these CDs first started coming out, less so now). Chances of being prosecuted for a one note sample - about 0%, but still technically illegal.
