Jan 02, 2005 04:14 pm Sand stops vibration, so yeah, it would help, just better make damn sure they are secure up there, sand is also very heavy.
Sand Bags hung on the ceiling
Posted on Jan 02, 2005 03:33 pm
bladerunn3r
Member Since: Jan 02, 2005
Hello!
I've been searching the net lately to find the best and most affordable way to soundproof my basement for rehearsals with my band, and found some advice regarding the use of sandbags as a means of soundproofing.
I am considering this option since sand is free nowadays and bags..well can't get cheaper, and i am thinking of hanging sandbags on my ceiling and also covering the windows with lots of them. For the ceiling, I will build a wooden framework to hold them together, and attach gypsum board to the bottom of it.I am still working on a way to make the entire construction suspend and not touch the original ceiling or walls on the side.
However ,I am not sure whether sand has soundproofing properties, the only reason I am considering this is because it would make a heavy false ceiling that would absord the vibrations.
Do you think sand would be a good choice or should i stick to mupliple gypsum boards to add weight to the false ceiling? Undecided
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Jan 02, 2005 04:14 pm Sand stops vibration, so yeah, it would help, just better make damn sure they are secure up there, sand is also very heavy.
Jan 02, 2005 05:26 pm Gotta agree, sand is a very good way to stop escaping sound dead in its tracks.
The main thing to remember is you will not want any leaks around the sand bags or it will still allow some of the noise to get up through the ceiling.
Sound proofing does take a bit of effort to get it right, but it sounds like you are doing your research and know what you are getting into.
Just make sure you get the support sturdy. I am thinking cable's looped over rubber grommet's, large sturdy rubber grommets! That would help with the isolation as well.
Jan 02, 2005 05:26 pm besides that sand also stop bullets quite well in case you really start pissing of the neighbors.
Jan 02, 2005 06:21 pm I think a bag of sand wieghs close to fifty pounds(judging by the bags I lugged for my garden). multiply that by the number of bags you'll need to cover your ceiling. That's one heck of wooden frame work you'll have to build.
Jan 02, 2005 09:22 pm Thanks for the quick replies!
So i am pretty positive that it's going to do the job & grommets are a great idea Noize2u, you ignited a new series of architectural designs in my head!
As far as the weight is concerned,that troubles me i must admit. But this is not necessarily bad. Imagine the music we're going to write by hanging half a tone of sand over our heads!
Jan 02, 2005 10:37 pm Wood won't hold that much, not speaking from experience with sand, but wood bends a lot. If you replace the wood with aluminum or steel then maybe, or use 2"x12" for rafters... other wise you will need support in the middle of the room... you could maybe get away with this with a vaulted ceiling...gothic arches and groined vaults, etc. but I wouldn't want to do the figures on measuring things :)
Plus realize that pine 2x4s are a lot weaker than pine 2x4s of 20 years ago due to the faster growth of the trees...
Plus the floor will probably need to be reinforced. Last project I helped my dad with similar to this was a stone wall in our house made from quartz and we ancored it to a concret wall and slid a steel I-beam under the floor..which was sitting on part of the foundation.
If you screw up you'll break the entire house. My parents bought an old farm house that had a 2 ton metal lathe in the kitchen. The guy put a steel Ibeam underneith the length of the floor beneith the lathe and jacked up it with 5 ton jacks sitting on cinder blocks... well the cinderbolcks sank and the ibeam bent and the kitchen sunk probably about a foot, we didn't bother salvaging it and just cut it off with a chainsaw and rebuilt it...bear in mind that this was a really solid house, the rest of it sank 1/2 inch in 110 years... new houses do that in a few months.
Jan 03, 2005 01:03 pm This could quickly add up to 3 tons of sand. If you create music from fear, I think this is the way to go. :)
Zek, I think you have a grasp on the reality of the situation.
i think the amount of money you'll have to spend compensating for the weight of the sand will negate the "FREE" sand. I think you might be better off just spending money on conventional acoustic materials.
I think I'm saying "THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS FREE SAND" :):)
Jan 03, 2005 02:15 pm _________
/ U
/ U
_/__ U
ok how bout this the lines represent your 2x6 rafters the backslashes are steel rods threaded through folds of a heavy canvas which the "u's" represent they can be filled individually to different lengths so not only do you get the sand soundproofing you get diffusion of sound from the different lengths .i had done a drawing but not computer savvy enough to get it posted without breaking the forum rules
Jan 03, 2005 02:47 pm I would seriously look into other options than sand...
Jan 03, 2005 03:30 pm Just a quick two cents:
Gotta agree with Karyn, dB, Zek, and Noise.
Sand is a great isolator in terms of not transmitting sound per it's mass and non-linear composition. It is not necessaraly a great absorber. And the weight factor is simply SCARRY!
Heavy, heavy hang over your head....What are you going to do with it!
Lumber today is not of the same structural integrity, it is also sold wet, too expensive to dry properly. I would not want to do that to my home.
Just thoughts.
Good Luck.
Jan 03, 2005 03:47 pm my suggestion was only in response to the fact that sand was going to be used most certainly or that the decision to use it was "set in sand " so to speak (in comes pathetic crowd boooohhh for bad pun)i think that a basement style ceiling in general is a bad recipe for acoustics considering it is generally parallel to the floor.but i must say i love trying to com up with idea's on it "could " work .you just just insulate the heck out of it considering pink fiberglass is relatively inexpensive as well ,although not "free"
Jan 03, 2005 04:04 pm No Ballz,
I think your attempt to add structural integrity to the structure is fine. And I agree if you are going to hang bags of sand over your head, by all means, please do review the structural integrity of the ceiling.
My only concern is the concept. A speaker stand filled with sand will isolate and confine vibrations from a speaker. The perpendicular oscilation of an 8" speaker will have little effect on a 3 foot column of sand. You could isolate an upper story of a building by putting 3' of sand between stories using the same pricipal. But hanging bags of sand, I am assuming to 'absorb' the energy is something different. Sand does not have a great coefficient of turning sound waves into heat as far as I know anyway.
Again agreeing with you, fiberglass, wool, vinal, polyester fill, would all do much better.
Jan 03, 2005 04:46 pm Aye...
All that sand landing on yer heid (head) would make one HELLUVA music video tho!!
Good luck to ya tho...I dont think Id be brave enough to build a frame to hold half a beach but its a bloody good idea and I didnt know sand had good soundproofing uses. So, if it works, fair play to ya. Better make that frame DAMN sturdy tho.
As I say, all the best.
Coco.
Jan 03, 2005 07:05 pm OK I have to admit that hanging sandbags isn't the safest way to go, but is there anything else that would fit the situation, that costs little,is heavy, has soudproofing properties and can be safe when hung?
So the final plan is to make a layered construction with less sandbags but more gypsum board, 3 layers maybe and fiberglass in direct contact to the ceiling.To illustrate:
__________________________________ ceiling
| oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo | fiberglass
| oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo | sandbags
| ============================ | gypsum
|......................o.....o...........................| innocent
|......................|)......|)..........................| people
|......................ii......ii...........................|
__________________________________
How does that sound?Should I leave a gap between the layers of gypsum,add fiberglass in between or not leave a gap at all?
Jan 03, 2005 07:51 pm I was advised recently that a good way to go is:
(applies to walls/ceilings as well I guess)
GYPSUM x 2 <FRAME> <SPACE> <FRAME> GYPSUM x 2
I previously planned on doing it this way:
GYPSUM <FRAME> GYPSUM <SPACE> GYPSUM <FRAME> GYPSUM
Apparently, the first way I showed is the best for soundproofing and I guess it makes sense. It has 2 double sheets to start with, then a big space (Which sound doesnt like as sound finds it harder to travel thru space than solid mass) so, this would absorb/kill/absorb the other end (with a double gypsum layer) giving the sound a thick barrier to try and kill (and the sound will already be depreciated).
Good luck to ya
Coco.
Jan 03, 2005 07:54 pm Actually coco, I have been planning to find the thread we discussed this and correct myself, because yes, it is better (and easier) to put two layers of rock on ONE side of the frame, not one on each...I am glad somebody told you, cuz I meant to, but, well, just tied up in other projects at the moment...so it escaped me...sorry.
Jan 03, 2005 09:00 pm Hi,
I'm Julien aka jbow. I, supposedly, soundproofed my basement a few years back and learned a little. First, forget the sand. It's too heavy and could hurt you if a bag were to work loose from the vibration also it would be a realk annoyance if it found a way to sift down onto your stuff. I installed a drop ceiling and then put insulation bats in it. It helped but...it didn't completely solve the problem because of a couple of things. Sound vibrations love to travel along wires...and the ceiling was hung with wires, wrapped around nails into the wood. I don't know the best way around this but if you do a drop ceiling try and hang it with something other that wire...maybe string or twine. I imagine that string would be about as bad. another thing is doors. It don't matter how much you insulate the ceiling if you don't address the doors. I haven't tried this but I think it'll help. Most door frames are made so you can install a door on either side. Install an extra door on the other side of the door frame...so that you have two doors...one swings out and the other swings in. Then cut a piece of rigid foam insulation that will fit snug into the space between the doors. Put it in and close both doors when you're playing.
I hope this helps a little. You're still going to make some noise but not as much and if you can figure out how to fix the sound traveling the wires and into the wood, you'll have it beat I think.
Jb
Jan 03, 2005 10:24 pm There's a company out there that makes these strips that you attach to your wall frames, and then you attach your drywall to these strips. They isolate the drywall from the frame and therefore reduce transfer of vibrations to the rest of the house...I'd think that they'd be key in a soundproofing project.
Now if I just knew what they were called or who made them...
Jan 03, 2005 11:01 pm what about a basement under de beach? plenty of sand! hehehe
Jan 04, 2005 12:07 am OK, Auralex max a stuff called Sheet Blok it is not cheap, but after calulating the cost of lumber and materials for doing the sand thing somewhat safely I found you could do a good istulation of the sheet blok, and it does work as I have used it in many jobs for blocking purposes.
The cost would actually be less to do it with that material. And it is made for sound proofing. It is fairly thin and easy to install as well.
Jan 04, 2005 12:45 am regarding drywall, I think these rooms are actually supposed to be glued together... so no nails/screws :)
The dual use nuclear fallout shelter would work povided you get a good sump pump system going that:
1. is quiet...even when the pump isn't running..ie no trickeling water..
2. a pump that never fails... otherwise the room will flood to neck level :)
Jan 04, 2005 08:54 am Cheers dB...nae worries.
Aye, I have been a huntin on this one and I thinks, this makes good sense and it may be the way I go if I get roond to it!!
So, we shall see.
Thanks for the confirmation tho bud.
Coco.
Jan 04, 2005 09:02 am I am currently constructing walls around my studio (finally) and while I WON'T be going the double wall route, I will be sheetrocking and insulating it all. I will also insulate and sheetrock the ceiling plus hang sound diffusing suspended ceiling tiles over the sheetrock.
Remember, sound diffusion is as important as sound proofing. You can double wall, double sheetrock your whole room, and it will be well sound proofed, but it will also be horrible to listen to inside the room...you need to have some reflecting, some obsorbing and some diffusing surfaces in the room as well.
Jan 04, 2005 09:51 am I dont know much about this, but this is an interesting thread indeed and a few things just popped into my head, for what it's worth.
If sand is really *so* good at absorbing, then why not lessen the weight problem by just having a thin "sandwich" layer of sand somewhere instead of whole heavy bags of the stuff? Would that be effective? E.g., while admittedly still carrying some weight, sandwiching a half-inch layer of sand between two gypsum boards would distribute that weight much better. I havent a clue if it would be effective at all though, and may be worse or same as having thin air. Ya never know though.
The other thing which is probably obvious, is the usefulness of insulation foam tape (like thick foam scotch tape/sellotape) for where bits of framework meets walls and ceilings. That really does help to stop sound vibrations travelling.
Jan 04, 2005 11:24 am Hey Sibbly
I dunno budd..I am nae expert but my investigations lead me to believe the space is good. Sound doesnt travel well through space and as such, is more effective than thin surfaces or absorbers??? Dunno, someone jump in here cause I need to know this stuff too...
Fascinating subject tho...for sure. And, one, I will be looking at more as time goes on (even in the home - could be handy for parties :-D !!
Cheers...
Coco.
Jan 04, 2005 12:09 pm This thread impressed me as being bizzar, so I did a little peaking around and found where one studio did use sand to dampen the sound transfered through the top of a recording booth.
This chap found that 6 inches of sand poured into the top of his sound booth would dampen most any sound short of a Mesa-Boogie a mega-tilt from the room above.
Now, a 6" layer of dry sand not packed weights about 50lbs per square foot. Obviously a 10 X 10 room would require about 5000 lbs of sand.
That is about the weight of a midsized pick up truck loaded to max capacity.
Sounds like a Ford ad, where they drop out of the sky and bounce.
Jan 04, 2005 01:40 pm Thanks Walt!
That's what I am looking for!A real life example.
(Not to mention that it's the best way to convince the other members of the band to take the risk and finally make this thing!)
As for your questions cocofromscotland regarding leaving space between layers I remembered the articles from soundonsound.com I've read recently and I quote:
"If a single wall can reduce the sound leakage by 45 or 50dB, what happens if we use two walls separated by an air gap? You might, not unreasonably, think that 45dB for one wall added to 45dB for the next would give a 90dB figure, which would be terrific. However, the maths doesn't work out quite so simply, and, furthermore, unless the walls are separated by a considerable gap, 'air loading' between the walls reduces the efficiency of the isolation. Even so, approaches to sound isolation based on multiple barriers separated by air gaps tend to be the most successful, and a double structure will invariably perform significantly better than a single-layer barrier of similar mass."
Actually these articles gave me the idea of using sandbags.Regarding soundproofing ceilings:
"Short of suspending wood-wool or sandbags over your head, or building a substantial false ceiling below the original, there's not a lot you can do that's really effective"
and soundproofing windows:
"or, if you don't need the light at all, you could fill the window space with sandbags and board it up"
You can find these articles at
www.soundonsound.com/sos/...923ac0234a22b33
A very informative read, and Paul White is one of the most trustworthy sound-engineers I've ever found on the net.
Jan 04, 2005 02:59 pm Yup, fits right in there with what I have found.
Too bad the middle east is always so volitile. Bet you could buy a bunker for cheep!
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