Need Preamp advice
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Posted on Sep 09, 2004 09:04 am
BJT
[email protected]
Member Since: Sep 09, 2004
Here's my situation. I do home recording all on the computer, by myself...no bands. I use software applications such as Cool Edit Pro and a lot of ACID 3.0 for drumbeat creations/loop samples, etc. I lay down my own bass lines and guitar tracks going through the J-Station for guitar and the Bass Pod for bass because of the huge variety of amp models to choose from. My song projects range from hip hop, rock, R&B, pop rock, 70's style up-beat dance, to urban thumpin' rap. I'm big on the fat, round, thick, big bass sound...and rich, colorful, big rock guitar sounds...I also like recording the dirty garage-style Beastie Boys guitar sound as well. I play an old EVH style Kramer and an O.L.P. Bass guitar. (Would anyone suggest I upgrade my guitar and bass?)
I plan on investing ina quality keyboard in the future for different sound creations. I'm tired of relying on using instrument samples and using the "slice n dice" method of creating music to get professional sounding recordings.
My PROBLEM:
I'm not getting the quality guitar and bass sound out of the J-Station and the Bass Pod as I had hoped. Will running the signal through a quality Class A Preamp/EQ/Compressor be the answer? Here's another problem: I do most of my recording late at night after the kids have gone to bed (so I have to play direct...no mic'ing the amp. Hence, needing to rely on the J-Station and Bass Pod for sound variety through "quiet" direct recording. Or playing through an amp. with a direct line out.)
The GOOD NEWS!
I'm ready to add to my home recording gear to greatly improve my sound and increase my level or recording. I'd like to start out with a $2500 to $3000 budget (not set in stone). I've been looking at the Avalon VT737sp and have been considering holding out for the new JoeMeek TwinQ that's about to be released. Any opinion on these two pieces of gear for helping my situation? Are there other pieces of gear I should be considering? I really want something that is going to "WOW" my ears!!
Is there something out there that is an "all-in-one" box for Guitar/Bass & Vocals, but has awesome sound quality? If not, I'd be willing to get a specific piece of gear for guitar, one for bass, and one for vocals...anything to get the best quality sound for each. "All-in-One" box or separate gear...any suggestions?
When recording guitar and bass, how important is it to have the ability to add "color"? This is another issue to consider. Also, the mono vs. stereo thing. Since Joe Meek TwinQ is a stereo device, doesn't that mean that it has mastering capabilities if I want to run the "mixdown" through in stereo for Final Mastering?
I am also wanting to get a pair of Yamaha MSP5's for my monitors...I hear these are kick *** monitors for the price...$500. I like the amp to be built into the monitors for space issues.
My goal is to get "best quality" recording and sound results (as close to professional as possible). If I have to upgrade my guitar and bass then "so be it". I'm ready to make the leap to the next level and purchase some quality gear I won't outgrow for years and years to come. All suggestions welcome!
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Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Sep 09, 2004 10:51 pm BJT, I only have minute here but I will answer moe of your questions later.
First thing I would think of is how are the pickups in the Kramer EVH, I think Kramer used some fairley hot pickups in the day. If the guitar plays well and sounds good for the most part, new DiMarzio;s might do the trick. Their Tone Zone is a good all aroudn choice, or for something hotter I use the Evolutions in bridge and neck with a Fast Track II in the middle in my customized Ibanez.
Second, I know alot of peeps really dig the J-Station but having played through both that and a POD I much prefer the POD. I recently ugraded to the POD XT and did a complete upgrade of the software and firmware and am moer then just impressed. I am amazed at how far they have come with the thing. I would start there and give a listen to the POD XT compared to the J-Station.
More later,
Noize
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Sep 10, 2004 09:40 am What are you using to record your Jstation and Pod with? Like what sound card or workstation, and what kind of preamps do you currently use? That'll also be a huge factor.
With a budget like that, I'm sure that the folks here can steer you towards a great sounding setup.
Sep 10, 2004 08:00 pm Noize2U - Thanks for the advice on the pickups. I'll seriously look into those. Same goes for the POD XT. I'll have to check it out. Is it really that much better than the J-Station?
Tadpui - the soundcard I use is the M-Audio Audiophile 2496. I currently don't use a preamp. That's what I'm really trying to research right now, is the preamp. I think that's going to help the most...I hope. I'm searching for some direction on what will help me the most regarding the way I record and the type of music I record....in search of the pro sound.
-BJT
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Sep 10, 2004 09:43 pm I'm not 100% sure that a preamp will help in the area of recording direct with amp modelers.
Maybe I have the wrong idea of what a high-dollar preamp is capable of, but I think that the modelers act as preamps in that they take an instrument-level signal and match it to the line-level signal that your Audiophile accepts. The modelers probably don't do this quite as cleanly as a pricey preamp, and maybe they're the source of the less-than-pro sound you're hearing. But I think that the "damage" is done by the time the signal leaves the modeler.
I don't think that the preamp will help it sound better, although I don't think that it would make it sound worse, either. It would probably be nice to have a quality preamp around for use with vocals or when you have a chance to mic your amp(s), so maybe it would be a good investment for you.
I think that the pro sound is only going to come from a guitar you like, plugged into a decent amp, miced with a good mic, into a great preamp, into a good sound card and treated with just the right amounts of effects. How's that for lame advice? hehehe...
BTW, as an M-audio owner, I think that you're on the right track with your audiophile. If there's a weak link in your signal chain, the 24/96 probably isn't it!
Sep 11, 2004 11:24 am So, if you think the J-Station and/or Bass POD is what is "damaging" the signal before it reaches the preamp, then what would you suggest I run my guitar and/or bass through to keep the signal pristine before reaching the preamp? Is the Pod XT, as Noize2U suggested, the answer? I still need to be able to attain different sounds out of the guitar, ie. effects/distortion/amps/cabs. I'm open to suggestions.
Any suggestions on good Class A preamps? Let me here from some people who are happy with the sound they're getting with their guitar/bass and vocals when recording direct into a PC using software recording programs. Close to pro sound as possible. How are you doing it and what are you running the signal through to attain high quality recordings? That's the million dollar question. All suggestions welcome. I've got about a $3,000 budget...so let's go get some gear.
-BJT
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Sep 12, 2004 07:09 pm The POD XT is def a better choice then the J-Station since the last couple firmware updates. I have been nothing but impressed by what they have done with it. I also have added the extra amp models and cabinets and effects units they have as upgrades for sale as well. That has made a huge differance on my opinion as well. And if you are looking for a way to get many differant tones and sounds out of your guitar that is one way. I dont think I will run out of things to tweak on the XT for a long while.
The Bass POD is probly not the root of the problem on that side of things. I am guessing again you might look at either replacing just the pickups in the bass as well or maybe a differant bass. I am not familier with the O.L.P. bass so I cant give an honest opinion on its quality or the pickups in it. I would say if it sounds good unplugged and the playability of it is up to snuff then maybe just pickups would do the trick. Some active pickups if the bass will hold them would be great for many differant tones. But then the Bass POD itself is good for that as well. I guess another suggestion might be to look at the firmware/software version you have intsalled in your bass POD and then hit the Line 6 website and update it if necessary.
As for the Class A pre, yes indeed if you have the money to spend then they are well worth it in the long run. They are excellant for tracking vocals and will pump up any signal you feed them for sure. I dont know if the POD XT would benifit from it much though. When I use my POD direct I make sure and tweak the A.I.R. processing up a bit to get that open feel you get from miccing a cabinet. And I do honestly sometimes tweak the guitar once its recorded as well with a pluggin to warm it up a bit more. I usually record the POD in at a moderate level, not to hot so there is room for adding a bit more punch once its recorded. This however is not alwyas the case as some of the patches I have tweaked out for it are allready punchy enough without any extra crunch.
As for the Avalon against the Joe Meek. I think the Avalon would be a better all around choice for what your after. It is a bit smoother then the JM and not as twitchy. Nothing against the JM by any means, it is one hell of a unit, but the Avalon has a much smoother sweeter sound to it.
Finally I will twist a bit about using Cool Edit. I know a lot of people are very happy with it and many have done some fabulous recordings with it. The tools incorperated in it are slim compared to the bigger apps. But honestly, you get what you pay for. And if you are looking for an application to do it all you might look at Cubase or Sonar. Both these programs have three times the tools onboard then CEP or most of the other lower dollar rograms out there. The new Sonar Porducer edition is a fantastic tool with way more goodies in it for tweaking and working the audio then many of the others out there. And now in Version 4 it has in my opinion jumped to the top of the heap. And I havent even gotten it shipped to me yet. But if the upgrades are what they claim over Sonar 3 then I know I will be pleased.
Anyway, hope some of this helps, if ya need more depth to any descriptions, by all means ask away.
Noize
Sep 14, 2004 09:10 am Hey Noize2U:
Thanks a ton for the valuable advice. Would you recommend that I look at upgrading my Bass Pod to the Bass PodXT? I am also going to look into installing some Active Pickups for the bass guitar as well.
Any advice on what brands of bass pickups I should be looking at?
Something else that I've been wondering about: Since the Bass Pod(XT)and the Pod XT for guitar are actually preamps (aren't they?), does it make sense to run your bass and/or guitar through the Pod, then through the Avalon VT737sp? My thinking is the answer would be "yes" so you can capitalize on the different types of sounds the PODs offer, then the Avalon would give the signal a boost, some EQ, and a clean up of signal.
Wouldn't I get awesome results from the bass guitar by just running the signal straight through the Avalon and not use a Bass Pod(XT) at all?...taking into consideration that I add some great quality pickups to my O.L.P. bass.
Thanks again for all you advice. I will await your response on the above-mentioned.
-BJT
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Sep 14, 2004 10:30 pm BJT, I am heading off to sleep but I will hit this post tommorrow and give ya the answers you are looking for.
Peace
Sep 17, 2004 10:25 pm Noize2u - I haven't heard back from you since your message from the 14th. I believe you were going to get back with me regarding my questions about the Bass PodXT used with the Avalon VT737sp. Any advices would be most helpful. Thanks a ton.
-BJT
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Sep 19, 2004 11:47 pm Bass = Fishman! The platnum pro is "da Bomb!" No modeling, just the cleanist sharpest DI made for bass, guitar, upright, or EUB.
Sep 22, 2004 09:45 pm Noize2u- You've bailed on me. Where'd you go? You never got back to me from Sept. 14th.
Walt. Hey, I appreciate the reply.
Are you saying that you are recommending a DI, made by Fishman, called the Platinum Pro? I've searched for this on the Musician's Friend website, and I was unable to find. (trying to find out the cost and read product profile).
This brings up another question. Since I was looking at purchasing the Avalon VT737sp pre/EQ/Compressor for recording guitar/bass/vocals direct into a computer...are you suggesting that I should just buy the Fishman DI instead of the Avalon? Please clarify.
Read all my previous questions and situation...would want to hear any suggestions you may have. Do you think I'm on the right path?
-BJT
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Sep 23, 2004 06:35 pm Well, I'll try. For use with both bass and guitar the Avalon may work better as a "general" unit. But for Bass, I have never seen better than the Fishman Pro-EQ Platinum. Input gain, output gain 5 band eq, compression with depth adjustement, groound lift and phase inversion. All in a stomp box designed unit. Runs on 9V battery or wall wart. Not surprising you did not find it on MF. It is pretty high end although not that expensive. Fishman has been pre-amping and DI'ing bass for years and it is their speciality. It's the sound that is the clincher. From Upright to EUB to guitar it is "Da Bomb". I use it for performance between my basses and amp even if I am not recording. It has amp out, DI out, and Tuner out. A well thought out piece of equipment. And the DI out is just well now I'm repeating myself.
I will be doing a session with the big band next wednesday and I hope to play both bass guitar and EUB. If the session turns out any good at all I will post something for you to listen to.
Sep 23, 2004 10:51 pm Walt,
Hey, thanks for the response. I looked into it.
Isn't the Fishman Pro-EQ Platinum (Bass) for "acoustic" basses? That is what their material says. I play "electric" bass...jammin'. Will this gear work well for "electric" basses as well, or is it restricted for better results using only an acoustic bass. You are talking about the model designed for the "bass", right?
-BJT
ProbosMember
Since: Sep 09, 2004
Sep 24, 2004 08:28 am You should try a Behringer Ultra-G GI100, which is basically a DI box for guitars. It also has a speaker sim/emulator on it that works great with modelers like the J-Station, V-Amp or POD. I've heard nothing but good things about it from other guys that use it, and it's only $35 new. Might be a good place to start. I really don't think you're gonna improve your sound with a traditional preamp. If you were miking an actual speaker cab and amp I would say yes, but for recording direct this might work better.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Sep 24, 2004 05:22 pm I use mine with all my basses. I usually perform with a musicman Stingray bass guitar and the fishman really makes a huge difference, especially when using the DI out for recording. I use it to send one signal to the board and another to my amp. Much better sound than the DI out in my SWR amp head. It is also wonderfull on my EUB (Electric Upright Bass). Again I use it between the bass and the amp head, and to send a DI signal to the board for recording. And although it is used primarily by upright bassists, it is by no means any less effective on the bass guitar. I used it to record other bassists as well, including one in a heavy metal band. Even he fell in love with the thing.
TYYMember
Since: Mar 04, 2003
Sep 26, 2004 11:15 am Garbage in = garbage out.
No matter how sweet a mic pre or DI is, it will not greatly improve the tone coming from a Jstation. You need to either upgrade to a better modeler unit (I have heard better than the Jstation), or ideally you need to be micing a REAL guitar amp. A modeler is passable for high gain sounds, but suffers at most other guitar sounds.
If noise is an issue, you can buy/build an isolation box for MUCH LESS than $3000. It will vastly improve your tone. Run a low power tube head into a 1X12 iso box with a mic inside. You will get great tones and create very little noise in the room.
Running a jstation through a $2000 preamp is pointless.
Good luck!
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Sep 26, 2004 10:27 pm BJT, sorry for the delay. I have been a busy little beaver here for the last few weeks.
Anyway, as Walt stated the fishman is a good idea. And really the Avalon will not improve the sound at all. As TYY said, it is what you are putting into the PRe or the DI or the modeler that helps create the finished product.
That said, I would sart by investing in either a differatn bass or just some good active pickups.
Walt is a bass player by trade so I would take the info he gives and run with it for that matter.
But as I said, the Avalon is a great piece of gear but it wont fix the sound if it isnt good to start with.
