Man Breaks Down; Asks Experts For Guidance (RNC & Berry)
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Posted on Oct 03, 2003 02:42 am
Ilan
Member Since: Sep 25, 2003
Hey Folks,
So, my FMR Audio RNC will be arriving on Monday. I've just set up my basic recording equipment for the first time, and after fiddling around for a few hours, mostly everything seems alright. I do have some questions, however.
I am running a Behringer UB1202 mixer to a Delta 44 and recording with Cool Edit Pro 2.0. I'm a little confused as to where my compressor will fit in. I'm running two 1/4" cables from the main outs to the Delta, and then two more 1/4" cables back from the Delta outs to stereo lines 11/12 so I can monitor with headphones. The other available jacks are one FX Send, Control Room Out (L & R), Tape Out (L & R), and Tape In (L& R). The tape jacks are RCA.
4 basic questions.
1) How do I hook up my RNC and where does it fit in the chain?
2) Is the way I set up the headphone monitoring totally stupid, or is that a normal way of doing it?
3) I'm sending my CEP temp files to an audio-dedicated 40 gig JB Western hard drive (7200 RPM). I also have a 60 gig master hard drive that holds my system. Should I make the JB my master drive and the old one the slave?
4) I originally had 256 MB of RAM in my system, and I added another 256 to it last week. Well, Cool Edit was giving me a few problems tonight, so I checked my system and I apparently have 512 MB RAM but only between 285-310 physically available. What the hell?? My computer only has two slots for memory... so does this mean I have to buy a 512 stick for an extra 100 bucks? Nooooooooo -- I'm literally running out of money over here!!
Thank you for any and all help!
~Ilan
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Oct 03, 2003 04:23 am well i'm no expert but i hear that's a really nice compressor. and don't be afraid to ask questions around here. that's what this place is for.
1) i think how you have this set up is fine. i have a smaller behringer mixer as a front end to my Delta 44 and there's two differnt ways that I can hook up my compressor to it. The first nd most common way is to insert it in the Aux loop. That would be Aux send to compressor ins, compressor outs to aux return (left is usually mono). The other way I do it sometimes is inserting it between the mixer's main outs and the Delta 44's inputs. I do this when I'm recording two simlutaneous channels only because my tiny mixer has only 1 pre-fader aux send.
2) The way I do it is I set my Delta 44's Outs 1/2 as monitor mixer and select the consumer line level in the delta control panel and send it straight to the tape ins. This probably isn't the best way to do it, again i'm pretty new to all this nyself, but this allows me to interrupt the siganl and gives me a couple of options on how it gets routed with a couple of little buttons on the face of the mixer. I'm not at my workstatopm right now to see, but i think say say "send tape ins to control room" and "send tape ins to mix". Lets me route the signal with the push of a button. if there's a better way i'd like to know too.
3) provided the external HD isnt' slower than the main HD, this should be fine. It might even open up some portability in the furture if you ever start working with other people or need to take your work with you on the road.
4) i'll let somebody who knows computers handle this ;O)
-j
Oct 03, 2003 05:06 am Well, you system and any background processes use memory, but it sure shouldn't be THAT much memory, unless youhave a ton of stuff sitting down in your taskbar running in thebackground.
Really, shoulda got the 512 in the first place and bumped yourself up to 768, 256 sticks are antiquated...
IlanMember
Since: Sep 25, 2003
Oct 03, 2003 12:27 pm Hey Jamie,
You wrote:
>>1) i think how you have this set up is fine. i have a smaller behringer mixer as a front end to my Delta 44 and there's two differnt ways that I can hook up my compressor to it. The first nd most common way is to insert it in the Aux loop. That would be Aux send to compressor ins, compressor outs to aux return (left is usually mono). The other way I do it sometimes is inserting it between the mixer's main outs and the Delta 44's inputs. I do this when I'm recording two simlutaneous channels only because my tiny mixer has only 1 pre-fader aux send. >>
I don't think I can do it the first way -- I don't have an AUX return on mine. I only have an FX send. As for the second way... I don't quite understand the deal with a pre-fader aux send. Does that refer to the ability to control the main outs levels?
You also said:
>>3) provided the external HD isnt' slower than the main HD, this should be fine....>>
It's actually internal, I have it set as my E drive. It is definitely faster than my old hard drive. I guess what I'm asking is: If I'm already sending all the temp files from CEP to a folder in the new E drive, is it necessary to set that drive to Master so as to take advantage of its faster speed?
dB: I did have some stuff running in the taskbar, but closing all that still only got me up to 320 MB. I did some more scrounging around, deleting and uninstalling old programs... and then I went to the task manager and it said I had 26 processes running. Is this a normal amount? I closed about 8 of them, only the ones that weren't being run by SYSTEM. That got me up to 367 MB, but now it's fallen back down to 340 MB. Which is more important: the RAM or the speed of the hard drive?
Thank you!
~Ilan
Oct 03, 2003 12:41 pm Well, it's all important.
The amount of RAM that is available moves around all the time. Another thing to do is go into your virtual memory settings and set a hard value to the virtual memory so that it is 1280MB in both the min and max fields. Which is 2.5 times the amount of RAM you have available.
Also, there is a program around that is pretty cheap ($20 or so) called MemTurbo that watches the available RAM and can scrub the RAM when you tell it to or you can set it to do it automatically when the amount reaches a specified level (bad idea when recording). What it does is look for RAM that is reported as used by programs that are not running any more. Some lame apps have memory leaks that tie up RAM and don't release it properly when you close them.
www.homerecordingconnecti..._story&id=5 is kind of an old article but a lot of it still applies.
Oct 03, 2003 01:48 pm This little sucker (mixer) isn't really designed for recording...
IF you wanted the compressor working on all channels (overall mix) at the same time (not really a good idea, kindof defeats the purpose of using a compressor... but a cheap way to do it). Then main outs, RNC in, RNC out, delta. Make sure you tie (couple) the compressor into stereo mode.
The 'FX out' is generally used for overlay effects, such as chorus, flanger, reverb, etc., that can be 'layered' on top of the actual output, as apposed to replacing it, which is what a compressor should do. (i.e., if you ran the compressor back through the board after coming out of the FX, the compressor would NOT affect the mix in a noticable fashion, as the original channel would still have the same envelope, overriding the compressed channel).
The best way of course is to use pre-fader inserts for compressors/limitters/gates. Of course, this requires independent compressors for each channel, but is well worth the control. This little board doesn't have inserts though.
If you did, however, you could run 2 independent channels through the FMR RNC (switched to mono mode), and get much better results.
W.
IlanMember
Since: Sep 25, 2003
Oct 03, 2003 02:23 pm Waldo,
So in other words, I'm screwed with this UB1202? OK, so if I return it to Zzounds, what do you think about replacing it with the UB1204?
www.zzounds.com...tem--BEHUB1204P
It has "2 aux sends per channel (1 pre fader for monitoring applications and 1 post fader for external FX devices). There are 2 subgroups with separate outputs for added routing flexibility and 2 multi-functional stereo aux returns with flexible routing...."
This seems to fit what you were saying, correct?
Also, it appears that the 1204 uses XLR for its main outputs... stupid question, but it IS possible to get a cable that is XLR on one end and 1/4" on the other, correct?
~Ilan
Oct 03, 2003 02:25 pm Yes, the 1204 would be better, it would give you a couple subgroups to isolate your tracks for recording easier, tho, no, your not "screwed" you just may have a little tougher time than you could. However, subgroups are a HUGE benefit when recording.
Return it to zZounds anyway, then click on an MF link here and by it thru MF and help support HRC ;-)
Oct 03, 2003 05:43 pm 'aux' sends are the same as the effects send on the other unit, only difference is that they have 2 on this unit, with returns (extra channel set aside for this specific use).
Look for something with 'inserts' on the channels that you want to use compression on, or you are in the same boat. Aux sends/returns are not the same as inserts (insert sits in between the input and the fader, if there is no return signal, you get no signal through the board, the original signal is NOT mixed with the return signal. An Aux sits PARALLEL to the input and the fader, starting either pre or post fader, depending on the configuration, the return signal, if any, is mixed as an extra channel into the final mix, along with the original channel. Post is better for effects as the fader also helps control the volume of the effect, pre is better for monitor output, where the volume is to remain constant)
Yes, the sub-groups are handy as dB says, but don't affect the situation you are worried about.
W.
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Oct 03, 2003 06:25 pm Yeah return it, no busses = headache for recording.
IlanMember
Since: Sep 25, 2003
Oct 04, 2003 04:36 am Hmmmm....
I still am a long way from having a full grasp of all these connections here and there, but I guess that's mostly cuz I haven't actually used any of the equipment yet. It's all kind of hard to follow (for me, at least). Sometimes I wish someone was just here in front of me who could show me how the hell all these things fit together and what does what...
But anyway, I looked around for mixers with separate channel inserts, and it seems like there are none below $250. Which is completely out of the question for me at this point. I don't really understand the concept of sub-groups and busses yet, but if it's still possible to compress my signal with a little more headache working it out, I'd be okay with that. I just might come back here for more help when I get the RNC and the new mixer. :)
Here is something I pulled off the FMR page:
>>Can I use the RNC for my stereo mix bus?
Yes. In fact, the RNC's SuperNice mode was designed for and tested extensively with stereo program material. One of our goals was to have a 2-mix compressor that sounded good, gave some signal control and didn't cost gobs of money. So, how should you hook it up to your mix bus? Probably the best way is by hooking it into your console's stereo bus inserts. BUT, you could always take the simplest approach and just take the output of the mixer, connect it to the RNC's inputs and then connect the RNC's outputs to your monitoring system. Just follow some of the guidelines we've given you above (and follow hook-up instructions of the equipment you're hooking the RNC to). >>
What does all that mean for the UB1204? Just to clarify, I'm most likely only going to be recording no more than 2 inputs at a time (acoustic guitar and vocals, sometimes piano), and only one at a time for much of the time. Does this make a difference?
Totally lost,
ilan
Oct 04, 2003 05:08 am if you ever find yourself micing something in stereo, like that piano, you might find the stereo function of the RNC pretty handy. but then again, most 2 channel compressors have that ability.
i think the UB1204 and the RNC with the Delta 44 are more than enough to do what you want to do. Plus the extra busses on the 1204 will let you expand should you ever decide you need all four inputs on the Delta simlutaneously
right? am i correct in understanding the the 1204 has 4 outputs?
Oct 04, 2003 01:43 pm See if you can find Alto down there. Comparable to Behringer (a little better in my opinion).
I got a little sub-mixer for live drums by them, S-12, under $200 USD. 4 (balanced or unbalanced) mono ins with decent mic pres, each with an insert, 2 Aux sends (1 selectable pre/post per each channel, 1 post on each, with instructions to modify per channel if you are good with electronics), 2 stereo aux returns. 4 stereo ins, can all be used as mono if you so choose, one has a mic pre. Each channel strip has 3 band eq., mute, selectable solo (PFL or AFL), full size fader, aux 1+2 with pre/post switch for aux 1.
stereo Control room output, stereo main outs (balanced or unbalanced), stereo phones output, stereo Alt output (mute a channel with the mute button and it goes to alt output instead of mains. Slide the faders to the bottom to mute all-together), 2 channel tape out (unbalanced), 2 channel tape in. System could easily be used as a 4 bus (2+2) out (left/right mains, left/right alt).
W.
IlanMember
Since: Sep 25, 2003
Oct 05, 2003 06:47 pm Wow, thanks for the link and advice, Waldo! I'm seriously considering purchasing it... trouble is, I like to do a bit of research on things before I buy them, and I'm having a very hard time finding anything else on the web having to do with this mixer. Not that I don't trust your opinion...! I'm just a nerd.
Anyway, how are the mic pres on it? Better or the same as the Behringer UB series? And so how exactly would the RNC hook up to the Alto mixer?
Thank you again!
~Ilan
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Oct 05, 2003 07:32 pm To gain the most benefit from the RNC, you should really combine it with a class-A type preamp (such as those found on more expensive Focusrite and TLA gear).
The Preamps on the behringer and likely to be very similer to those on the alto's, and both of them a fair way from 'class-A' circuitary.
Regards
jues.
Oct 05, 2003 11:00 pm As jues states, they are similar to the behringer pre-amps, although, in playing with them myself, I find them slightly better. Also, some issues with behringer products (such as popping when switches are thrown, etc.) seem to disappear with the Alto. I consider them just slightly better than behringer, but still in the class of 'cheap gear'.
As far as hooking it to the RNC, just get insert cables, place the output of the board insert (typically tip) to the RNC, output of the RNC to the return (typically ring). Uncouple the channels on the RNC (mono/2 channel mode) and do the same with the second channel you want compressed. This way each channel is compressed independently, post-preamp, and pre-fader, allowing better control.
W.
IlanMember
Since: Sep 25, 2003
Oct 06, 2003 02:54 pm
So the RNC just arrived an hour ago. I still have the 1202 Berry as I haven't yet decided whether I really need the Alto or just the 1204. Anyway, I decided to hook it up in any way I could just to hear its effects.
Here's how I've got my connections. Got an XLR going into line 1 from my SP B1. Then I have TRS 1/4 cables going from the main outs to both ins on the RNC. Then I have 2 more 1/4 TRS cables going from the RNC outs to my Delta 44 ins. Then I have two more 1/4 TRS cables going from the Delta outs to stereo lines 11/12 on my mixer so I can monitor through headphones.
Here is what I've noticed. I can't hear ANY difference in sound when I'm recording, but on playback I can. However, even though I played with all the controls to the extreme, the only ones that made any difference were the threshhold and the gain. I know compression is supposed to be subtle, but if the controls are going to all extremes, shouldn't there be a difference in sound? I'm assuming this is because of the screwed up way I have everything connected... but if that's so, how come I can definitely hear some change in sound? Shouldn't it be all or nothing? And what exactly IS wrong with hooking it up the way I have it now? I really don't get this... and I'm starting to doubt my sanity ins spending so much of my (and my fiance's) money on this...
help?
frustrated,
Ilan
IlanMember
Since: Sep 25, 2003
Oct 06, 2003 02:56 pm oh, and how do you uncouple the RNC? What does that mean?
Oct 06, 2003 03:12 pm by "uncouple" i think TheRealWaldo mean to siwtch the stereo mode off. Most two channel compressors have that option to slave the second channel the the first. By "uncouple" he means to switch them off back to mono mode.
Oct 06, 2003 03:18 pm oh, and about the way you have it hooked up, how are you preventing mixer channels 11/12 from feeding back on the main mix? I'm assuming you don't have Delta channels 1/2 assigned as "monitor mixer" do you? in which case you are certainly only hearing the uncompressed signal frmo the mixer while recording, and then on playback you hear the compressed signal that was recorded. if you switch Delta outs 1/2 to "monitor mixer" and suddenly you get some mad feedback, you'll need to send the Delta Outs 1/2 into the tape ins and route them with the "2TK" buttons.
"monitor mixer" lets Delta Outs 1/2 listen to all eight Delta channels simultaneously
IlanMember
Since: Sep 25, 2003
Oct 07, 2003 02:45 am Jamie and Waldo,
The RNC has no switch for stereo or mono mode... to tell the truth, I'm all befuddled.
I don't get feedback on the main mix cuz I'm careful not to bring up the level of the headphones too much. It works totally fine if I do that, but there's gotta be a better way, right?
OK, I guess I'm pretty much set on getting the Alto S-12, but I'm wondering if the S-8 will also work as well for me? It's 100 bucks cheaper. Here's a link:
www.directproaudio.com/product.cfm?directid=13502
Thanks guys.
Ilan
Oct 07, 2003 12:31 pm S-8 has no inserts, back in the same boat as the behringer.
I'm not sure which revision of the RNC you have, but the 1773 is 1 channel mono, or stereo only, so only useful for recording if you are doing a single track at a time. Anything more than that, and the compression is nearly useless.
Quote:
Then I have two more 1/4 TRS cables going from the Delta outs to stereo lines 11/12 on my mixer so I can monitor through headphones.
Make DAMN sure these channels are muted on the board during recording, you will damage your equipment (redundant loop).
If you want to monitor the compressed mix during recording, connect the headphones to the delta monitor outputs directly. The way you are doing it now, you are mixing an un-compressed signal (from the channel you have the mic plugged in to) with the compressed signal (coming from the delta), which results in an, you guessed it, uncompressed signal!
You do not have the facility on that board to monitor from it if you are taking the compression off the mains.
As far as hearing it, the way you have it hooked up is a direct problem, and, have you read your manual ;)
W.
Oct 07, 2003 12:37 pm Quote:
You do not have the facility on that board to monitor from it if you are taking the compression off the mains.
not true if you return the Delta's 1/2 as monitor mix into the mixer's tape ins and assign them to route to the control room - zero latency monitoring of the effected signal and it won't feedback.
Oct 07, 2003 12:45 pm Jamie, the uncompressed signal will remain in the mix, therefor cancelling the compressed signal in the monitors.
W.
