Mic Pre question
Home > Home Recording Forum > Recording Techniques > Mic Pre question
Posted on Aug 07, 2003 01:25 pm
TheTincanbug
sloppy dice, drinks twice
Member Since: Aug 05, 2003
Hi all - I'm mostly a composer/musician, and into the recording aspect of the art by necessity... I'm aware of roughly what a mic pre does - warmer, fatter sound for vocals - if I ran my line-in guitar and bass, or miked hand drum parts through a pre, would they sound better? (as a general rule, I mean) I don't want to spend money on something I don't need, and I just write for the joy of it. I'd love to fatten up my sound. Thanks! Also, if anyone has any gear suggestions on the CHEAP side for a mic pre, I'd love to hear them. Thanks.
[ Back to Top ]
Aug 07, 2003 01:43 pm i think you might be confused about what a preamp does. a preamp is nessecary in order to derive a signal from a passive instrument like a microphone or a guitar. Some preamps are desinged for microphones, some for bass guitar, etc. Some are even specificall designed for vocal mics for instance. Every preamp has it own character and there for you'll get a different sound from each combination fo mic + pre possible. So to answer your question "would they sound better?", well that all depends. how are you miking and preamping your hand drums now?
Another thing: Personally i find that "fattness" of a sound comes from EQ.
TheTincanbugsloppy dice, drinks twiceMember
Since: Aug 05, 2003
Aug 07, 2003 02:36 pm "i think you might be confused about what a preamp does."
I would agree with that statement...
As far as I know, I'm not preamping anything at the moment... I'm miking drums by rigging 2 mics top and bottom, running them into my mx602a mixer, sidechained through my alesis nanocompressor, into my sound card (audiophile 2496). From there I boost/tweak the sound through cool edit pro. The mics are a Shure SM57 and an el cheapo V-Tec. The sound clarity is pretty decent, but the overall quality is a little flat, even after eq-ing - not that I'm an eq wizard or anything.
Aug 07, 2003 02:56 pm yeah, the mixer has preamps builtin. you know that little black knobs you use to boost the gain on each mic? that's the preamp stage. Passive instruments like mics and guitars and stuff do not work without preamps. The advantage you'll gain by buying a separate preamp for you mics, is that basically the Behringer mic pres aren't very high quality, so you'd be improving that portion of your signal chain. right now i use an M-Audio AudioBuddy as my mics pres of choise, but that will be changing as soon as a buy a separate pre, maybe an ART
TheTincanbugsloppy dice, drinks twiceMember
Since: Aug 05, 2003
Aug 07, 2003 03:44 pm Where exactly in the input chain would one place the pre - before the mixer, sidechained to it, post-mixer pre-soundcard? Also, would you say that the Audio Buddy adds warmth to your sound that the Behringer pres I'm using do not? I'm happy with the way I can boost signal at the moment, I just really want to make my sound less sterile. I'm trying to judge the cost vs. the benefit...
Jamie, I really appreciate your responses. BTW, I used to know a Daniel Garrett, also into recording and composing (mostly church-related as I recall). He was from the Chicago area, I think - any relation? :)
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Aug 07, 2003 08:52 pm A dedicated pre-amp (such as one from the Focusrite range) will give a "purer" and "truer" signal than those of the pre-amps on your MX602a. Cheap pre-amps will rob the signal of it's detail and richess - often resulting in strained high frequencies, and in some cases, harmonic distortion.
However, in order to notice the difference a pre-amp gives, you need to appreciate the quality of the signal coming into the system. A sure SM57 is fine for guitar amps, but is always gonna make vocals sound pretty thin. I personally think you should look into purchasing a budget condensor Mic (Rode NT-1a, Behringer B2, etc) - such a mic will make more difference to your sound quality than a pre-amp alone.
jues.
Aug 08, 2003 02:40 am i don't believe i have any family in chicago. actually, garret is an assumed name. i killed the real jamie garrett years ago. no, i wouldn't say the AudioBuddy adds any "warmth" to my signal, in fact it's a very accurate and sterile sounding preamp which is advertised for it's being "transparent" and "colorless". i just prefer it because of the high signal to noise ratio and the fact that it's very small and super portable.
and jues is right, i don't think you're going to notice very much difference between preamps until you get a more sensitive mic like one of the condensors he mentioned. BTW i have an Oktava MK-319 and it rawks.
TYYMember
Since: Mar 04, 2003
Aug 20, 2003 12:04 am Actually, the preamp can make a bigger difference on dyamic mics and especially ribbons.
Condenser mics have built-in amplifiers, hence the need for phantom power (it also polarizes the condenser), so they have a hotter output than dynamics. This results in less gain needed from the preamp, and potentially less preamp influence on tone.
Dynamics and ribbons need a lot of preamp gain, as they output weak signals. The preamp will make or break you in this case. A good preamp can really transform a 57. You'd be suprised how many pros use them on vocals...
Aug 20, 2003 04:59 am Funny to read this advice. I have done just this: I bought a decent condensor mike (a Rode NT1a which sounds absolutely fabulous and can compete with mikes up to $1000,- with a lower self-noise than a Neumann U47)!
I also bought a mike preamp to make my vocals sound better and it does! I bought a Behringer MIC100 tube preamp and it is very cheap, with a lot of value-for-money. It's ultra low noise (really very quiet) and the tube with variable gain and output allows you to shape the sound!
Also, it has a 20Db pad. I have tried to connect the DI-out from my guitar amp to the preamp and turned down the gain (and turned up the output) and it sounded good!
It allows you to shape the sound a little.
So that would be a nice investment if you ask me.
Aug 21, 2003 08:03 pm TYY- I think you're right about that. I'm running everything at -10 and I don't even have to use a pre-amp on my tube condenser mic, except for a little extra gain after the compressor stage. I do think that a good pre-amp would be more noticeable on a condenser if you had to use as much gain as you do on a dynamic, though.
Aug 21, 2003 10:45 pm Porpoise, that's like third time you mentioned not using a preamp. i've gotta know, are you just straight pluging your mic into the compressor and boosting the signal from there?? i would imagine the signal would be noisey and useless by the time you got it up to a usable gain.
Aug 22, 2003 06:36 pm Hahaha! Yes, it is about the third time :) I've got my mic plugged into my mixer with the fader at 0db and the pre-amp all the way down. My Composer compressor is out the mixer's main inputs. I direct the signal out the input I want to go to the compressor, and from there I compress it :) I have the output knob set slightly higher than 0 (Which is no increase or decrease) The signal's pretty hot when it reaches the computer, and it sometimes clips when I'm recording drums (With the mic pad switch on!). Perhaps this is because the mic is a tube condenser and has its own special power supply. I'm not sure.
Aug 22, 2003 08:47 pm so the trim pot's all the way down, huh? weird... and with the pad on.. man, i would have never guessed. well, whatever works for ya! -j
Aug 23, 2003 09:27 am Yep :) I'd be interested to try another condenser mic with my setup and see if it's the same way. For me, dynamics don't need a pre-amp either if I'm using them on a guitar cab or drumset. Are you using +4 or -10 for your setup? If you try your Delta on -10 maybe you'll have the same results with the Octava. And make sure the compressor is on -10 too, if you try it.
Aug 23, 2003 11:41 am This seems a little confusing. If your are plugging your mic into your mixer, then your ARE using a preamp. The mixer IS a preamp. Setting the the gain at 0dB doesn't cause the mixer to bypass the pre it just sets the attenuation on it. Those numpers on your gain dial are just there to convience. They don't necessarily represent actual levels. Try plugging you mic directly into the Delta and see if you get anything you can record. I don't think you will. You need some kind of pre for microphones, be it a mixer or stand alone pre, the mics just don't put out line level.
My $.02
Blessings, Terry
TYYMember
Since: Mar 04, 2003
Aug 23, 2003 12:50 pm Even with the trim pot (pre) turned all the way down, you're still getting about 10dB of gain. So like the previous poster says, you are in fac using a mic pre...
Aug 23, 2003 03:48 pm I don't have the mixer's gain set a 0db, I have it set at absolute 0, meaning there is no gain. I have the fader set at 0db, which means it is not cutting or boosting the signal. I can't go direct into the delta because it doesn't have XLR inputs. Perhaps I'll find a way. Are you saying that the stereo line inputs (Which the manual says DO NOT have pre-amps), actually do? The mixer says on it, "4 discrete mic pre-amps," not 12 pre-amps. There is no difference in volume when I go through the stereo channel or when I go through the mic channel.
Aug 23, 2003 05:37 pm How are you plugging your mic into the "stereo channel? Does it have XLR inputs? The more you describe the more confused I'm becoming.
You stated this;
"I've got my mic plugged into my mixer with the fader at 0db and the pre-amp all the way down. My Composer compressor is out the mixer's main inputs."
How is the compressor receiving a signal from the mixer's main INPUTS? Are you meaning outputs? Without knowing what mixer you are using I don't know the exact amount of cut the gain/trim knob gives you, but it is not a total cut. It is just an adjustable pad. It only attenuates or boosts the signal a given amount. Many mics are too hot to mic a heavy handed drummer. That is why they make mics with at pad built in. They still need a preamp to work.
You discription of the way you have your mic and mixer patched makes no sense to me.
1) What mixer are you using?
2) What input are you plugging your mic into?
3) What is the setting for the gain/trim control?
4) To what output are you sending the channel signal?
5) When you say 0dB are you meaning unity gain?
6) What mixer output are you using to get a signal to your compressor?
Where does the signal leaving the compressor go? sound card?
I'm not trying to be difficult, but you've got my head spinning. :D
Blessings, Terry
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Aug 23, 2003 06:45 pm check out PM's profile. it's a behringer eurorack mixer. here's what i'm thinking:
the only real problem here is that setting the mixer's main gain at Unity (0) isn't exactly solid mixer use. you're supposed to set the mic preamps by playing loudly into the mic and adjusting the gain until just below the 'peak' light flashes. you can leave the individual channel faders around 0, moving down or slightly up to taste (in situations where you are sending an entire mix to your computer, like 4 mics on drums). then you adjust your mixer's main volume so that it is as loud as your compressor or sound card can handle (mine is usually around 9 o'clock).
the basic principle is that you want to get as much out of your mic preamp as you can, since turning up the signal with that is less noisy than having higher settings with channel or mixer main faders.
i have a eurorack mixer, and i know that there is a section in the manual that talks about setting the gain levels on the mic preamps and channels.
Aug 24, 2003 01:54 pm Yes, that last post was a bit confusing, I meant main outputs, not inputs. Anyways, I wasn't really asking a question in the first place, just answering one, so I didn't state all the necessary information. However, now I will ask a question, if that's okay :)
If I were to go buy 4 really nice pre-amps, would It be advisable to go through the mixer and then send out those 4 signals to the pre amps as long as I don't use the pres on the mixer? Or should I just skip the mixer all together? I'd like to be able to use the mixer with the pre-amps together. What do you think?
Oh, and Mikus- I do use the pre-amps on the board if necessary, it's just that unity on the faders is usually the perfect volume for recording without clipping or being too quiet. I leave the mains (More like subgroups for me) at unity as well.
Aug 24, 2003 05:20 pm naw, if you want the mixer in the chain make it like this:
mics > pres > mixer line-ins > etc
with the pres before the mixer
Aug 24, 2003 05:28 pm The only problem with that is it kind of defeats the purpose of the mixer in my case... I just want something that I can easily plug my mics, or lines, into and mix down more than 4 signals to the 4 delta input channels if I have to (Such as in the case of micing a drumset). Does "etc" include a compressor?
Anybody have any suggestions for a set 4 rack pre-amps (Preferably inexpensive... Say, $300 tops)?
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Aug 24, 2003 09:19 pm Focusrite Octapre - more than you stated, but what I'd opt for. Failing that, take a look under the preamps on Musician's Friend.
jues.
Aug 25, 2003 08:26 am Okay, thanks Jues. That thing looks awesome! I wish I could afford one... Are any brands generally especially good or bad or does it all really depend on how much money you're spending? Is Nady good? How about Behringer's stand alone stuff? You guys have already mentioned that PreSonus makes good stuff, so I'm looking into that. Anyways, thanks alot.
Aug 25, 2003 11:55 am IMO, you're going to have to spend some real money to get pre's that will be noticibly better than your Berry. If then you run them through your Berry anyway you will have defeated the whole purpose. Why not just use your Berry for times when you need to have more mic's than you have sound card channels, and then get a good pre for use on vocals and the like. I have a DMP3 that was not too expensive yet gives great results. I use it whenever I'm tracking two channels of vocals or acoustic guitar, or the like. If I need to track drums I use my Mackie. I never run the DMP3 through the Mackie, I run it direct to the sound card.
Blessings, Terry
Aug 25, 2003 04:16 pm Okay, cool. Good thinking. I know what I'll do now. I'm going to get two pre-amps (In a single rack space form) And run the output of those two directly to the delta's first 2 inputs. The mixer will handle the other two inputs for my other connections and mics, and will also handle the output from the delta as it is doing now. This way I won't have any need for buying a new mixer (Which I was considering), and I will still be able to mix down before recording on 2 channels, which is all I need. That will free up two of the pres on the board too. I'm getting excited just thinking about it :) Now I'll be able to use my mixer's mute buttons too... how I miss those good ol' days... It should work out perfectly.
So... Any suggestions for a set of 2 pre-amps?
Oh, and one other thing: Should the pres go before my compressor or after (Or maybe I should get a pre/compressor in one package)?
Maybe I'll start using +4 so I can maximize the use of those pres...
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Aug 25, 2003 06:21 pm i saw this manley preamp unit that was being hailed as "ahead of its time" because it had a compressor before the preamp, designed to "get the most out of the preamp".
i'm wondering how that jells with everyone.
Aug 25, 2003 06:24 pm That would seem to make sense to me, but it doesn't seem all that revolutionary since you can do that whenever you want to if you have seperate pieces of hardware...
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Aug 25, 2003 08:18 pm I've heard good things about the PreSonus BlueTube, a friend of mine has one and he seems to like it.
And don't forget this little chap from Behringer. www.musiciansfriend.com/s...ase_pid/182461/
jues.
Aug 26, 2003 08:45 am Nice. I'm leaning towards the PreSonus because of what appears to be a pretty good reputation. But the ART, Nady, and Behringers are still possibilities.
Aug 26, 2003 08:55 am Oh, and by the way-- How do you rackmout a "half rack" piece of gear? Do you just screw it in on one side and hope it holds?
TheTincanbugsloppy dice, drinks twiceMember
Since: Aug 05, 2003
Aug 26, 2003 09:04 am PorpoiseMuffins, I think there's an extra rail you can buy that bridges the middle of a slot between the front and back, and you screw your equipment into that on the inner side of your hardware.
TheTincanbugsloppy dice, drinks twiceMember
Since: Aug 05, 2003
Aug 26, 2003 09:09 am jues, I checked out that Berry pre - it adds warmth to a signal, I see.... just what I'm looking for. Would it be useless running through my MX602A, since I use the Eurorack's pres for that? Would my money be better spent on other equipment to enhance the warmth? (and the heck might that be, anyway - one of the bbe maximizers, or aural exciter units?)
my signal is cold... so cold... (chattering teeth)
yes, someday I do plan to stop singing through my sm57 and get a condenser mic... I'd rather spend the money that will allow me to apply warmth to all of my instruments instead of just my voice, since I have to prioritize anyway.
Aug 26, 2003 10:43 am Hmm... Looks like you can buy a special adapter for the BlueTube for $30 to rackmount it. I'm thinking this calls for a cheapo universal rack tray...
Aug 26, 2003 12:40 pm I would suggest the one I own which is the M-Audio DMP3.
service.bfast.com/bfast/c...mp;bfmtype=gear
It is the best pre in it's price range AFAICS. I've also heard great things about the RNP (Really Nice Preamp) from FMR Audio.
www.humbuckermusic.com/fmraudrnreal.html
I's a bit more money, but I've never heard anyone say a bad thing about the RNP.
Blessings. Terry
PS. Most half rack units need a rack tray for mounting in a rack.
Aug 26, 2003 03:08 pm Okay, thanks. I've been doing searches around the forum for previous topics about this that I must have missed back when they started.
Aug 27, 2003 03:06 pm Okay, well, I think I'm going to go with the ART TPS preamp if nobody tries to stop me :) Most of the reviews are positive and I've heard a lot of bad things about the BlueTube's noise problems (Including someone on this forum with the same problem) And I've also read reviews from people who returned the BlueTube for an ART TPS and were much happier with it. I'm still open to suggestions though, since I probably won't have the money to buy it for a bit.
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Aug 28, 2003 12:19 pm Has anybody here used the M-Audio Audio Buddy? It appears to be a low-noise budget mic pre that has dual channels and costs less than $100, which puts it into my price range.
I was thinking about putting one of these and a Delta 44 into my Musician's Friend shopping cart :-)
Also, does anybody know how to read the individual reviews for an item at Musician's Friend? I see the overall ratings, the number of reviews, but I don't see anything that says "read all reviews"...I just wanted to read some reviews of the ART preamps since they have pretty ho-hum overall ratings.
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Aug 28, 2003 12:41 pm I find the best way to get reviews for a product is to simply go to google and enter
+"{product name)" +review
eg: +"Delta 44" +review
Regards.
jues.
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Aug 28, 2003 01:53 pm Sorry, I'm having a moment of brain density...what does "go to good" mean?
Aug 28, 2003 02:22 pm I've been wondering the same thing... About the reviews and the "go to good" part :)
Aug 28, 2003 02:36 pm I thinke he meant got to Google.
I have heard mixed reviews about the Audio Buddy. Some say it very good and very quiet. I've heard that it's phantom power sometimes has trouble putting out the full 48 volts. But, like I said, I bought my DMP3 from Guitar Center for $119. I don't know if they are still selling them for that price but it sure wouldn't hurt you to ask. It is far and away a better pre than the Audio Buddy. I'm not sure the Audio Buddy is an improvement over the Berry UB mixers. I'm sure the DMP3 is.
Blessings, Terry
Aug 28, 2003 06:33 pm Tadpui-- Check out Zzounds and harmonycentral.com for some ART reviews. They seem mostly very good to me.
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Aug 28, 2003 09:56 pm Excellent. Thanks, fellas.
Sep 05, 2003 01:48 am i got the Audio Buddy. I think it sounds great. it was my first preamp and I prefer to use it over my Behringer mixer (as a pre) but coupled with the mixer i can send to all four of my Delta 44's inputs!
