rantin' bout compression
Home > Home Recording Forum > Talkin' Smack > rantin' bout compression
Posted on May 17, 2003 03:47 am
fortymile
Member Since: Jan 18, 2003
i really really really hate compression.
it's the only effect that i just truly dont get. i mostly understand the specifics of what all the functions do--threshold, attack, ratio etc. ive read some articles here at hrc about it, and i've read passages in books. but i just dont know how to apply it. my ears cant hear that magic change when i mess with it. one time jues remixed one of my songs and boy did that guitar get punchier. when i mess with compression, it seems the only effects i get are softenings of the sound where i dont want them--like, parts will drop out--or else the whole track gets louder. i guess for punchy distorted guitars, you would want: 1. a quick attack? (but how quick?) 2. a high ratio, i have heard, like 5:1, and i think thats because more sound will get squashed into a smaller space that way. 3. i dont know what the appropriate settings are for release.
i dont know if i've seen a starting recipe on here before for compression. there was one, but all the suggestions were not useful for beginners. 'use a fast attack' doesnt mean much to someone who has never used an attack at anything whatsoever period. but i'm starting to come around: recipes are no good in that you dont actually learn what you're doing. so i'm gonna go read up i guess. if anyone has a way to explain compression as related to distortion guitar, like as in how it functions, i'm all ears. sorry if this is already in the archives somewhere. if it is, i wont care if this is deleted. :)
[ Back to Top ]
May 17, 2003 11:49 am hehe, I know exactly what you mean. I've been using software compression for over two years and hardware for only about two weeks, and i'm *finally* just now beginning to make some sense of it. i've read both of these articles over and over again www.homerecordingconnecti...story&id=13 www.homerecordingconnecti...story&id=84 and it's still escaping me. As much as i've tinkered with software plug ins such as the H20 and the Endorphine, being able to look at graphic representations of the before and after waveforms, it wasn't until I started running my mics and guitars through my new hardware compressor and actually hearing the life that can be added (or taken away!) that i begun to get what was going on.
If I ever figure it out to any professional degree, I'll write up a more thorough article targetted at the total noob. I sure could use one :O)
May 17, 2003 02:09 pm that's very interesting! i was also wondering if maybe the difference would be easier to hear on a hardware compressor. what do you attribute that to?
i will check out these articles and also hunt around on the net.
May 17, 2003 04:43 pm i think attribute it to being familiar with how my guitars and mics sound and playing them live as opposed to listening to previously recorded material and not being sure what to listen for.
once i figured out how to hook it upo and what the knobs did, playing bass direct into my mixer and listening on headphones I was able to easily get some sweet settings going on. ince I was playing bass right there in realtime I could tell the difference in sustain I was getting with each note I played. And for once I could hear what the attack and release were doing. I could finally understand what they mean when they say a compressor gets "breathing". It was fun wacthing the dB meters on the mixer peak, and how you can tell the a slower attack lets more transients through, while a slower release keeps things clamped down longer. It seems to me that the release settings should be determined by how long each note stays over the threshold. On longer notes you want it to slowly relax it's grip as the note loses amplitude. I still havn't figured out what ratio settings are best for what instrument, but I'll get the hang of it.
I'm already getting some excellent sustain out of my bass guitar. The 5th string used to be all floppy and quiet sounding and that's the first thing I noticed about having it compressed, was how it evened out the differences in each strings output. And all this time I thought my pickups sucked! I'm just gonna keep playing with this thing until I have it aced. Then I'lll play with it some more.
May 17, 2003 07:56 pm thats a pretty lucid explanation.
i think i will avoid using it for now. its 8*(&ing me off. i can use it on bass, however. i use just enough to where i can hear that the notes are kept at the same volume. it seems crucial to use on bass. i just dont get the guitar application. i really want to. but it sounds 'alright' to me without it. its just that when someone else really tweaks it for me i am always shocked at the difference. i forget what you can do with it and how much it can help. i think i'll post this song when im done. maybe someone can tell me if the guitar needs it, and maybe what kinds of settings to make.
May 17, 2003 09:03 pm i heard somewhere that compression isn't just something you randomly use everywhere, it's only something you use when you *need it*.
in a perfect world we wouldn't need to iron out all those inconsistancies. Don't *not* use it if it helps, just on't use it when it hurts, you know? If you're unsure, try to keep an uneffected copy of that track or sample or whatever so that you can compare the two. if the comp makes it worse, try another setting or just don't go with it at all.
for guitar I think the #1 thing you'll gain from comp is sustain. In fact alot of compressor pedals (i'm a stomp box freak) are marketed as "sustainers".
Keep playing with it. It's one of those effects where it's *absense" is more obvious that it's presence. Lately I've begun to think of compression as the difference between sounding like you recorded in a bedroom and recorded in a proper studio. i'm anxious for other members of the community to chime in and give their experienced input.
May 17, 2003 09:49 pm sustain? see, thats something i dont understand right there....i have no idea how a compressor would help with sustain. is it because the comp boosts the overall volume, the signal can take longer to die out? i dont know.
but hey thats kind of how i think of compression, too. the bedroom vs. studio thing you said there. which is why i hate it. i hate it because i cant figure out how to set this very crucial effect. my whole life i've been amateur at music. i took the time to learn theory intellectually but i still am not great at applying it in songwriting. so i'm trying to work to get a bit better, you know, at theory and writing and at recording, cause my near-future hope is simply for people to hear my recordings and simply think 'who's this by?' not 'oh, some amateur guy here.'
but people dont seem to like to dish out 'recipes' because (and theyre right) every situation is different. however, without a starting point, comprression doesnt seem figurable if you naturally have bad ears and have no values to judge the results against. im thinking a good investment might be one of those mixing books that come with cd's that have before and after examples. theyre like 60 bucks, but they might be worth it...if they can give you a 'standard' for good then thats a point of departure. i still need to scour the net. maybe someone has thier settings for punchy guitar out there somewhere. the big thing seems to be how quick to make the attack and release, and whats the proper threshold.
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
May 17, 2003 10:53 pm settings will not teach you much tho. Jamie is totatlly correct - the best way to learn how to use a compressor is simply to run a live sound source that you are familiar with into it - eg: the output of your pod.
Play with the settings and then you will see the difference - remember, threshold is how much compression you are applying - ratio is how strong the compression will be applied and attack and release are how long it takes for the whole system to respond to the input signal.
jues.
May 17, 2003 11:07 pm k. i'll play around more. thanx
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
May 17, 2003 11:24 pm Forty, it kinda comes down to the fact that I could just tell you my 'starter' pod'ed distortion guitar EQ and compression settings - but all this will enable you to do is apply my settings you will have learnt nothing as a result.
The whole challange and interest in sound engineering is knowing how gear works and how to effectivly use it - you can only learn so much theory, you have to put it into practical use if you are to advance and create your own sound.
Maybe you need to seek out a producer to help you work on some tracks, in which case, let me know, I could be interested.
If not, then remember there are plenty of guys here willing to help you with any 'answerable' questions :)
take care
jues.
May 18, 2003 03:34 am jues,
fear not, i agree with you. i would much rather learn how to understand this, ultimately, so i will no longer be in the dark about it. i think what i need to do is hear examples of right and wrong, and view the associated settings that produced them. to that end, a book/cd combo on mixing sounds like what i need. christmas, maybe.
www.nowhereradio.com/arti...785&alid=-1
there's a link to a danzig cover song i'm trying as my first cubase project. it trails off. i'm in the middle of it. i've been playing around with EQ settings and compression all evening to no avail. if anyone wants to have a listen, maybe you could tell me your opinion as to what you think is wrong. there is no compression on these guitars, but the guitars sound very bad. bass is also uncompressed.
dont laugh, (actually go ahead) but after hours of tinkering, i threw out the suggested EQ settings for bass and guitar i was using and began playing around. this is how it ended up (bass and guitars are for the time being identically duplicated and panned nearly full left and right):
drums are straight out of triton, centered, untouched.
bass: +6.3 db@ 425-760 hz, (different hz within that range on left and right, different Q's too)...also -3db@142 hz, Q of 1 on both l and r
the following is for the distorted guitar in the chorus:
left channel: +10 @ 1227 hz Q of 1 ... right channel: +24db(i know, bad move)@1227 Q of 8 (i think i was trying to boost a real narrow band as an experiment)
left and right channels: -13.8 db@2297 hz. Q of 12
left and right channels: i set Q to "low s" -24db@150 hz.
out of frustration, you can see i'm making drastic adjustments.
i listen to danzig's 'black mass' and i hear distinctly different guitar sounds in the left and right ear. ditto with radiohead's 'airbag.' totally different distortions, but same effect. how do engineers get that wide open, multi-layered sound?!
jeez. what a mess of letter. its the state i'm in tonight. :)
May 18, 2003 03:37 am p.s. jues...
it'd be great to have you produce a track or two. i love how you altered that one track i did. so maybe in the future. i'll have to see if my writing skills improve a bit first to where i actually like one of my own songs enough to focus on it for an extended period of time.
May 18, 2003 04:11 pm forty, i think it's great that you're so immersed in all of this. with that kind of imterrest and dedication, determination, you're bound to be good at it. Just thought I'd reitereate that I'm soon going on 3 years of teaching myself about sound. The first year and a half or two were the worst since I bought this computer *jsut* so I could record my own guitar and bass music, then was struck with the realization that there's TONS to learn first. It wasn't until I stumbled across HRC and said "hey, these guys use the same sound card as me!" and started looking around did I start to really figure any of it out.
Just listening to the Danzig cover (thru my cheap computer speakers until I get everything hooked back up, i was out jammin' last night) and it sounds good from what I can tell. it does sound a little hot, like maybe it's too compressed or maybe it's just clipping. I can't tell until I have the proper hard/soft set up to look at it with.
I'm so lazy on Sunday. I think I'll just hang around here and check the messages
May 18, 2003 06:50 pm hey man, thanks for giving it a listen. the thing is, i mostly think it sounds terrible. the drums--i figured people would say the drums are too loud, but it's a distorted kit, so i'm thinking i'll go for a high mix with the drums to get a real electronic feel. but you're right--for some reason the guitars and bass sound hot. yet i had them within the green and yellow of the meters when i was recording. there is something very wrong with the way i am handling gain settings. i have: POD out level knob-->triton out level knob-->soundcard gain input level-->> monitor level, from card to my headphones. now the phones, it is worth noting, are cheap. they cost 5 bucks. a pair of walkman headphones. but i dont think theyre responsible for the annoying crackle that i hear in them (my monitor signal is straight out from the soundcard, the output of which is at 100 percent). it seems to me like there's a problem in the actual recorded signal which becomes exacerbated and obvious by pumping it too loud through the soundcard's out. i have in the past been able to get loud clear signals from the headphones so it cant be them, at least not entirely. is anything i'm doing here jumping out as wrong? i'm trying to figure out a way to set my mixer to act as both a router into the soundcard and a monitor into which i can plug the soundcard out and then a pair of phones. then i can have seperate gain for the headphones and thus reduce the signal coming out of the soundcard. my theory is that that maxed soundcard output might be the cause of the crackle.
p.s. for compression in this mix, the bass had compression but the guitars did not. but the compression was an old, random patch from my triton and i didnt tweak it. i certainly didnt understand the compressor when i set it, whenever that was. yeah, i know theres a ton to learn about sound. i knew that going in because i had been reading a lot. but for some reason my knowedge isnt translating into results very well.
lazy, yes! and it is time to eat. thanks again jamie. if anyone has any clue from my description about what might be wrong with my gain setting habits, i'll tweak them tonight.
May 18, 2003 07:25 pm gain on your soundcard? is that a knob or something in software? what sound card are you using?
it's also possible that you're getting noise from improper levels somewhere in the signal path. the process of keeping a signal as high as possible without clipping at each step of the path is called "gain staging", something I'm beginning to get good at. it's amazning how much quality you loose by having one step too low and the next too high to compensate for the first. you loose dynamics and clarity and *** noise and crap. it even seems to effect frequency responce, like some highs are lost in it, although that could just be my ears. make sure you've got good levels at every stage. this is why i think all audio equipment should have dB meters at least on the output.
May 18, 2003 07:56 pm jamie
i'm using the m-audio 2496. it has sliders in its software 'monitor mixer'. one pair controls the 'in' to this monitor mixer (the instrument-in signal). another pair controls the 'out' (cubase's signal) to the 'master volume' which i guess then controls the output from the card itself, which then goes straight my phones the way i currently have it set up. the 'out' pair (cubase out) is set to 100, and so is the master (phones out). in 'in' pair controls the incoming instrument signal. it's at 90-something. it's more complicated than i would like, and there are still other considerations. not sure what 'direct monitoring' means, but it's an option in cubase.
youre probably right about 'gain staging.' (im so glad i have a name for it now!) i wasn't even thinking about all these other gains in the chain, but i'm sure its having a major impact.
so tonight i will try to get a better signal. i'm wondering about my POD/triton levels. (POD runs into triton so i can use the triton's FX banks. then: triton out to soundcard in) should i be turning the POD output up high and then adjusting the triton's out to fine tune the signal on its way to the soundcard? (the triton doesn't have an input gain).
th!
May 18, 2003 10:01 pm i think the "IN" should be at 100% while you adjust your "OUT" to your own comfortable level to monitor at. This will give your recording a little more headroom to work with which keeps things dynamic and less noisey.
each step of the way should be as high as you can go without distorting. the more steps along the way, the harder it will be to get just right, also the more noise there will be, and the harder it will be to track down probelms as well. I'm sure the Triton's got some sweet DSP going on, but if it's something that you can add in software later, for instance with a VST plug in, try and take the Korg out of the chain.
One last thing, I notice you have a mixer but you didn't mention it in your signal path. You might want to insert that in there just before the soundcard, so then you can make further gain adjustments and let the dB meter be you visual guide as well. Plus you could stick the dbx in the effects loop :O) remember that if the "gain reduction" LEDS are just barely lighting, as in on ly the first one or two are illuminating, you really aren't effecting the audio too much.
sorry, but as of today i think i finally got the hang of this compression thing, and i just want to prod you into taking the plunge. BTW i've been looking over your theory guide on your webpage, dude that's great, i'm learning so much, and also reinforcing things i *thought* i knew but wasn't so sure of.
May 18, 2003 11:01 pm wow im so happy you like the page. there are many more wonderful things that build right on top of this stuff. thats the coolest thing about theory. once you have this groundwork in place, anything else you study makes instant sense.
the most useful thing i've learned from theory is the idea that i dont always need an amazing chord progression to make an effective song. i've switched to the practice of writing riffs but then thinking of those riffs--of each section of a song--as belonging to its own chord within the key. like, the chorus has its own 'tonality,' its own place it wants to resolve to, and that place might be the I chord in terms of the song's key, whereas the verse part feels at home on IV. as soon as i started doing that, my songs began making a lot more sense. not that i will always do that, but i just simply feel smarter now :)
the best book i've ever seen on this stuff, in case youre interested, is 'writing music for hit songs' by jai josefs.
hey--by 'gain reduction leds' i am assuming you mean the red leds on my mixer db meter, right?
i will give compression another go. i have to solve my signal distortion problem first then i'll be back at it.
thanks man
May 19, 2003 07:44 am sorry dude, i got you confused with another member. I've got several conversations going on in different threads about compression and I thought you had the same hardware compressor as me, but now I remember that you didn't have one yet. i was refering to the LEDs on that. But as far as the dB meter on the mixer, yeah that's nice for me since the software meter for my Delta 44 sound card dissapears behind other applications when Windows loses focus on it.
So your signal's distorting? That could very well be a gain staging problem. I just gave a tutorial on gain staging tonight at a friend's apartment. He had his computer outputting into one set of powered speakers and then into two further amplifiers powering house and PA cabinets. i showed him how setting the output level on the computer to almost maximum and then reducing the levels on the power amps, we were able to greatly reduce the line noise and broaden the overall dynamics of what we were listening to.
glynbMember
Since: Dec 16, 2002
May 19, 2003 10:40 am I have a compressor and like it a lot.
I'm still not sure about each control, though I've read over and over what each one is supposed to do - it just doesn't sink in (probably due to my age!)
However, I don't worry my little head abourt it any more. I simply downloaded a table of suggested compression settings for each instrument, keep the table handy by the compressor and just use my 'idiot' sheet for each recording. I fugre if someone else has taken the time and trouyble to experiemnt and produce these recomendations then why should i waste time going through the whole process myself - I'm not an engineer I'm a would-be songwriter, life is too short!
Of course if you want to understand compression for its own sake then that's a different matter. Good luck!
May 19, 2003 01:06 pm glynb, you have a copy of that table handy? can you tell me where you found it, i'd like to take a look..
May 19, 2003 01:13 pm Actually, I wouldn't mind having a copy of that too...and where you got it, maybe ask permission if we can post it or link to it or something...
May 19, 2003 01:54 pm seeing that table would be great, glynb. that's how i feel about songwriting, too. i own all this stuff so that i can write better songs, but thus far i havent been able to get around to writing...about a month now. my own thought is to set up some parameters that consistently work for me as quickly as possible, then start writing. you can start with some workable settings, become accustomed to them, move forward with writing, then ask questions and experiment on your own saved work when it is conveneient. having 'safe' settings can also help you to understand how making small adjustments effect the sound: you have an idea of what's good, and you can systematically alter that without ruining everything or geting lost in randomness, like i did here with this danzig cover song (just look at my EQ settings as i tried to compensate for what was essentially a gain staging problem!) anyway, if youre not trying to become an engineer, it seems that this is the most satisfying and productive way to go.
jamie, thank you: "i showed him how setting the output level on the computer to almost maximum and then reducing the levels on the power amps..." this was the lesson i needed to learn here.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
May 19, 2003 10:57 pm Indeed, gain staging is the most important thing to think about in a studio, or anywhere for that matter. The beggining of the chain is always set the highest and then each piece in the chain the gain is reduced as you go. This can take some monkeying around but it works at keeping the recordings fairly noise free.
May 20, 2003 03:45 am fortymile, no problem. i forgot to tell you about sustain. i drew a picture of how this might work: listen.to/garrett/comp.html
then i started rambling a bit. everyone is free to take a look and comment. please point out where i'm wrong or if there's short cuts or anything. it would help me out greatly
May 20, 2003 03:17 pm darn i wish i could see that. i'm getting 'error on page' and a blank screen. grrr what am i doing wrong
noize says gain staging is the 'most important thing to think about in a studio, or anywhere for that matter.' i have therefore started to keep gain staging in mind while out trying to meet girls at bars. its astounding, but i think that he's right. it IS that important. :)
May 20, 2003 03:20 pm yes, girls are primarily interested in your capital gain staging!
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
May 20, 2003 06:06 pm LOL
May 20, 2003 10:40 pm hehe. boy am i in trouble, then.
May 21, 2003 05:21 am as am i.. as long as im doing music. the music people always take my cash each month =\
glynbMember
Since: Dec 16, 2002
May 21, 2003 11:01 am Ok guys, wow it took some time to hunt around and find these again.
Here's an article on compression which gives the basics and some suggestions:
www.recordingwebsite.com/articles/compression.html
Now then. This next one is the one I use. It is included in a manual for a Yamaha multitracker (which is ironic because I use a Fostex vf160). Now the settings in the table work for me just fine it includes all the 'usual' instruments you might use compression on in rock/pop music.
The settings are VERY precise presumably because you can set them precisely on the Yamaha unit. My external compressor just has a knob to turn and is not precise enough to set say exactly at a release setting of 345 (it only has 300 and 500 marked so I have to guess)
Hope the link works...
www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/...ixers/03D_E.pdf - page 157
I have found other'suggested' settings lists too on other boards, but can't remeber you have to surf around and search on sites.
May 21, 2003 10:09 pm hey cool glynb
thank you for that. i feel a little dumb, though, as i thought that the output settings on compressors were always set in the negative ranges. these settings are throwing me for a loop. why are most of the gain out settings positive?
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
May 21, 2003 10:48 pm Because compression, by its very nature will create a quieter (in terms of dB) output signal.
jues.
May 22, 2003 02:36 am yes, but i thought the deal was to reduce the gain output and then um, up the track output. but...now i see how wrong i was. doesnt even make much sense does it.
this clears up a lot. i think i'm getting near-workable results now.
glynbMember
Since: Dec 16, 2002
May 22, 2003 07:31 am Hmmm. I've never really thought it was a problem because my compressor has an Output Gain knob which is set at zero in the 12 0'clock position so I can have a + value above 12 oclock or a minus value below it.
Some of the settings suggested don't make any sense to me becuse there isn't a knob under that name. For example there's no 'knee' knob - so I have to ignore that setting. I think my compressor is a 'soft knee' type by default anyway.
I keep the yamaha table by my recording setup and refer to it automaticaly when I need to record something. Saves a lot of time, also means I have consistent compression use across my recordings.
Like I said, I'm nto song writing. Recording is a means to that end, although I do enjoy recording too when it is not frustrating me!
May 22, 2003 02:28 pm thats how i feel too glynb. eventually i intend to gain creative control over all parameters that fall within the 'recording' realm. i think a full-on knowledge of this stuff is wonderful. for me, not-having hands-on training available to me, a reliable set of presets is what i'm trying to concoct. from there, experiment and departure. thank you for this table. i've now heard an example of what one version of a working compressor sounds like.
glynbMember
Since: Dec 16, 2002
May 28, 2003 08:13 am That's it Fortymile - it gives you the basic settings which work. You can then start to tweak things yourself as you gain confidence about what each knob does.
I'm a real fan of compression now after being initialy sceptical. I use it on everything I record using these 'idiot' settings. It's especaily useful for controlling instruments like bass guitar where you tend to get certain strings that 'boom' and of course the human voice.
Come on you guys - has anyone else tried these suggested Yamaha compression settings? Have they been helpful?
May 29, 2003 08:33 pm they're very useful so far, glynb, as a place to begin thinking from. the fact that they showed me my error--thinking 'outgain levels' with compressors had to be always in the negative, a terrible mistake--is worth the price of admission alone. i'm not entirely sure, but i dont know if they're doing much for me yet, because i think i'm recording at very low levels. the meter indicates no gain reduction...i dont think my signals are tripping the compressor, if im reading this right. i'll have to see.
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
May 29, 2003 09:13 pm If that's the case then you need to lower the "threshold" value until you can "hear" the compressor working.
Guides like the above are never going to be able to give you the correct threshold value because that is entirley dependant on the recording session.
jues.
May 30, 2003 12:10 am jues, i know where you stand on this, believe me. :) following a guide or a chart is not a good procedure. but your knowledge is way out there, man--you know so much. do you even remember what it's like to try to use a device when you have no certainty that you'll be able to identify the result that youre seeking when you hear it--because you've never heard it in isolation before? the frustration level...is totally intolerable. the session devolves very rapidly into random dial-twisting, leads quickly to disastrous results, and ends with the shutting down of all equipment and the going-out-to-the-exxon to purchase a pack of cigarettes to smoke while staring up at orlando's full-sky light pollution. the chart is useful as a starting point. i'm going to use charts until the compressor makes sense.
thanks for the tip about the threshold level. i guess i need to start looking at the signal peak in conjuntion with the compressor's threshold setting and try to begin to feel my way to an understanding about how the two interact. i dont have a feeling for the size of the adjustments i need to make in order to acheive the effects that i think might be what i think i'm looking for.
May 30, 2003 03:01 am forty, again, it's great that you're so into your art that it consumes you so. WHen I'm looking at my town's light pollution I'm thinking about audio. Art envelopes me. My whole like is an art.
I havn't looked at the aforementioned Yamaha settings yet because my style of learning requires that I absorb information from others on a more personal level, kind of like osmosis, but I'm certain that those presets assume a properly gain staged (is that a correct way to say it?) signal. You say you are recording at low levels, so maybe by increasing the output of the POD or which ever device is outputting weak until you are achieving a strong enough signal to induce compression in your equipment. -j
Jun 10, 2003 05:23 am i quit.
i hereby officially stop trying to record distorted guitar. i do not understand compressors, have no idea what im doing with equalizers, dont know what im looking for, and dont take advice very well. thank you all for your help. from now on it will be scratch tracks on acoustic guitar, until i can meet someone IRL who can show me an always-faithful setting that i can duct tape, glue down, and bolt in place, set it up and forget about it and NEVER, ever touch it again.
w00000! free! free at last!
Jun 10, 2003 05:43 am Well, in doing that every track will sound the same, which is kind of a drag.
Personally, I think you are making it much harder than it has to be, it's really pretty easy if you let it be.
Compression can be a mind screw, but for a distorted guitar you don't necessarily need it until you mixdown, I never compress until the mix. As far as EQ goes, for leads the only band I usually boost is 2500 hz to give the distortion some sizzle. The distorted track you sent me for that song I am working on sounded decent, all I did was apply the 2500hz boost and phased it a little bit. But given your source track it is hardly worth quiting, cuz you are getting an OK sound to work with.
The concept of a compressor is pretty simple, the "threshold" is where the sound starts to be compressed, the "ratio" is how much it is being compressed (i.e. 5:1 ratio means for every 5 db over the threshold only 1 db is being allowed to pass through) and gain is how much gain is applied to the compressed signal (to make up for the compression squashing it).
Quiting never accomplished anything...
Jun 10, 2003 06:59 am right dB, it takes time. like I said before, it took me two years of turning knobs in software and admittingly having no clue what was happening to my audio. I was schooling myself on dynamics when it all started to hit me. Now I know what compression does, but I'm still tryinh to figure out what's the best setting foreach application, since every situation's different.
And understand that anything being overdriven is already getting compressed. the natural limits of an analog device, that ceiling that the signal gets distorted against, is the threshold. With a high ratio because everthing just gets smashed. Immediate attack and release. You'll notice that all overdrive/distortion pedals have two gain knobs. The first one which boosts the level until it hits that mechanical limit and start to get smashed, and then the corrective leveller that adjusts for the change in volume you just made. You'll find similar in/out knobs on a compressor. The threshold and ratio are like the in and the output, well, that the out. Now you wondering "but the in knobs on a compressor quiet the signal while the output boosts it, but really the only difference is that in an overdrive the quiet parts become loud, where as in compression the loud parts become quiet, ultimately you achieve the same goal: reduction of dynamics.
and there is definitely no concrete setting for dynamic effects because every signal will have its own dynamics. understand dynamics and you will understand compression.
Aug 03, 2004 01:14 am i'm back at it.
two questions:
1. should i slowly drop the threshold from 0 until i "hear" it working? is it ok to just listen for the point where the guitar turns the crunchiest? and be confident in calling that the proper threshold?
1.5 i'm assuming that the order of this step does in fact matter. in the past, i think i may have tried to set threshold by guessing or by using suggestions or cheat settings, and then setting ratio and attack and all that. but it looks like you have to tell it how to work and *then* tell it when. and that listening to the "when" control (threshold) should be the last step?
2. how do i know how much gain makeup to use?
i might have more questions as i keep experimenting this week, if anyone wants to throw answers or suggestions at me.
Aug 03, 2004 01:15 am i'm back at it.
two questions:
1. should i slowly drop the threshold from 0 until i "hear" it working? is it ok to just listen for the point where the guitar turns the crunchiest? and be confident in calling that the proper threshold?
1.5 i'm assuming that the order of this step does in fact matter. in the past, i think i may have tried to set threshold by guessing or by using suggestions or cheat settings, and then setting ratio and attack and all that. but it looks like you have to tell it how to work and *then* tell it when. and that listening to the "when" control (threshold) should be the last step?
2. how do i know how much gain makeup to use?
i might have more questions as i keep experimenting this week, if anyone wants to throw answers or suggestions at me.
sorry for double post. cable problems.
olddogMember
Since: Jul 02, 2003
Aug 03, 2004 02:58 am If you don't have a visual indication of when the compressor is/will kick in then look at your level meters while it's playing and get an idea of what dB the signal is pushing if your compressor is reacting to peak input as a starting point. If it's set for RMS input then you need the average of the signal which you should be able to find in the wav analysis or whatever it is for Cubase. I would say if you hear the sound your wanting then thats where you should put it. :) But the lower the threshold in combination with the ratio, the less dynamics your going to have.
For example using the Peak input setting you may only need a threshold of -10dB to get what your looking for, using RMS you might need -24dB to get the desired effect. From what I've read and seen so far Peak is usually the choice on individual tracks, and RMS on the mix.
On make up gain I usually just set it where it sounds the way I want it too. Alot of times I leave it at 0, but if the output level is too low then I add gain. Mostly depends on how low you've set the threshold and how heavily your compressing.
then again I could be as confused as the next guy. :)
Dan
Aug 03, 2004 03:27 am Well forty mile it sounds like your describing classic pumping and breathing, and I don't mean the good kind. Low threshhold,high ratio to fast of attack=pumping. High ratio too fast of release=breathing. Set those attack and release time to auto, You didn't say which comp you had unless I missed it in the thread. I hope it has an auto button on it. Leave attack + release on auto. Feed some program material into it. Play with ratio & threshold knobs. twist them real gentle like and just watch the visual display of the gain reduction. then boost the output gain to zero. Really It shouldn't even be noticeable unless you want to nail your crunchy guitar tracks to the cieling. all it is, is adjusting the gain of a track to stay within a certain dynamic range so you can record at the hottest level with out clipping. I do track vocals with just a little 2:1 ratio. but basically it's best done on mix down. Hope I didn't repeat to much what others have said. I really, really love compression. Now I have some pumping and breathing to do. The good kind. Sorry..It had to be said.
www.karynwhittemore.com
Aug 03, 2004 02:34 pm i was going to ask about visual references, yes. i don't remember if i asked about that elsewhere in this thread.
1. gain makeup: it seems to me that you can't really lower the threshhold by ear and listen for crunch because won't you be lowering the overall volume as you do so? your ear would have to be finely tuned to stay on the lookout for the right in-your-face crunch even as the volume drops. so using this by-ear method, you'd have to raise the make up gain for every drop in threshold you perform, keeping the loudness that your ear perceives about the same and listening for increased crunchiness?
2. "...if your compressor is reacting to peak input as a starting point. If it's set for RMS input then you need the average of the signal which you should be able to find in the wav analysis"--i'm sorry olddog, i just don't get this. what is peak, what is RMS, and what do mean by "average of the signal?" do you just "around where it's peaking most frequently?"
3. i must still have little idea of what i'm doing given that i was setting the threshhold around -6 last night. -10 and -24 sounds like it would be extreme. i'm game for it, but it just didnt cross my mind to go that low.
4. i'm not sure i should use auto-anything. i'm not hearing any pumping and breathing. jues provided some settings for attack and release that were tailored for distorted guitar (where's ol' jues been these days?) i understand the function of attack pretty well. i know i've got to let the guitar's transients through to get the bite i want. the compressor then kicks in and the result is that you hear a more punchy guitar where the pick strokes on the chords are accented and well-defined. not entirely clear about release--i know if you give it a high value you get 'sustain' as the compressor prevents the sound from dying out. for electric guitar i guess you want to keep that pretty quick too.
olddogMember
Since: Jul 02, 2003
Aug 03, 2004 02:57 pm Peak is merely the instantaneous output at any given time.
RMS is the average output of the high & low of the signal over time and is quite a bit lower than peak output.
I'm not familiar with Cubase SX so I don't which statistic screen you would call up but I'm sure it has one. The compressor your using may not even have a choice of which to use so the point would be moot anyhow. :)
Where you set the threshold just depends on how close in volume you want to get between the quieter parts and the loudest parts and where your signal is peaking. For instance if the loudest part/peak is -6dB then your going to have to set the threshold below that before any compression would take effect.
Dan
Aug 03, 2004 05:39 pm you'd be surprised how little i still understand meters. the way i dealt with them in the beginning was just to make sure nothing ever crossed into the red because i knew that then there'd be clipping. i know someone tried to explain the meters to me in anoher thread once, but what is the most simple answer you can give to this question:
why is zero db considered maximum output? i don't understand the negative numbers and it's probably impeding my comprehension a bit. i don't know what it means (really) for something to be peaking at "negative 6 decibels." if i did, maybe i would understand on a whole different level why going above zero causes distortion.
Aug 03, 2004 05:46 pm From my point of view - I am the same as yourself Forty!
I have little clue aboot compression and my understanding of clipping is when the signal peaks above 0 decibels..I dont think anything below 0 is clippin tho when you get to the -0.6 its gettin close so perhaps thats why its red??
If my understanding here is wrong - then am bamboozled tae my friend!! I use Sound Forge for all my mastering and usually use a maximiser/compressor which has built in settings for this type of thing. I also use VST Dynamics within Cubase for comp on each track as I have nae hardware comp.
Dunno if I am going wrong either but it seems to give my signals a good boost using the presets for drums, vocals, bass etc.
This is all very informative stuff on this thread!! But alas, kinda confusing for me as I see compression as a big area I PERSONALLY could dae with conquering!
Aye - tis fun home recording, if complex at times with comprehension.
My two cents...
Coco.
Aug 03, 2004 06:32 pm i have to "get it." i want to have full control because every time i use a preset i have doubt. i question whether i just made that sound sound worse or better and literally have no idea. see, the thing is, there are so many paramters involved with getting a studio grade mix, that you won't really KNOW by ear if you're compressing right, because thats just one small step in a longer chain, and what you do with the compressor will ultimately affect other things. you need a standard at first, something to try to mimic. the best analogy is like with certain settings in my POD. for some of the control knobs for some of the patches, the way that they function is actually controlled by settings you've dialed in on other knobs. seems like this is why with compression, if your ears suck with it because you've never worked up close with single, unprocessed files, seeking to "match a standard"--that is, for example, other isolated guitar tracks lifted straight out from recordings you're trying to mimic--you can't really begin to get a feel for when you're getting close. you can't approach the quality of a commercial mix by holding the memory OF that perfect mix in mind and then twiddling with the compression settings on your 56% left-panned rhythm guitar track. not unless you can mentally subtract every other element of the full mix and focus your ears like lasers on to *just the left guitar track*. this is why i believe i always boost my guitars so high. i can't hear how everything interacts so i just boost the guitar to hopefully acheive a sense of power. the result is amateur, though. you wind up with very loud guitars and no sense of balance.
no more presets. i know compression is ultimately simple once you see the light. i am going to buy this month's digital music maker magazine as soon as i can scrounge up 15 bucks, because it comes with a CD with several uncompressed and compressed samples, and walks you through compressing an entire mix, from high hats to kick drum to guitar. (the only sucky thing i can see about it is i can already see that some of the settings in the pictures dont seem to match what the little captions say! DOH!)
but coco, what i was saying was: why negative numbers? someone explained this once before--i remember seeing an answer--but the basic confusion is that sound that you can hear is by its nature POSITIVE decibels. negative db would be less than inaudible. it'd be the sonic equivalent of ANTIMATTER!
Aug 03, 2004 06:59 pm Forty my friend...
Woo! That is a good post...alas, I do not have the same thirst for knowledge you have here and I cannot hope to come back with any relevant answers to your probs as I have the same ones myself!!
However, I'm all for finding that mag in the UK if poss and reading up a bit!!
You have a strong desire to get "there" - this tells me you WILL get there. And when you do - PLEASE share it with me in the simplest terms ya can!
As I say, I'm sure you'll nail it as you are keen enuff for sure. And when ya do - it will be SWEET AS A NUT!!!
Goodluck, sincerely, perfect comp for ya wont be far away...
Coco.
P.S. Negatives - man, I have NAE idea...my 2 cents seemed to just state obviousticities when I re-read my post so apologies for that!! Another question I ALSO want to know the answer too!
Aug 03, 2004 07:52 pm well let's hope. others said the same thing of me about a year ago and i havent even touched compression since then. i just get in these moods sometimes.
Aug 04, 2004 09:38 am it seems the only effects i get are softenings of the sound where i dont want them--like, parts will drop out-
This is pumping and breathing. When you have a dramatic decrease in gain=pumping. then you hear significant increase in gain=breathing.
I think if you had and analog compressor you could wrap your brain around this better, get a better feel for it.
Aug 04, 2004 01:10 pm thats probably true, and i'm sure theyre better, but an outboard compressor will never be in the cards for me :( even if i were rich, i think i'd just keep buying things with more of a wow factor.
i havent had too many problems with pumping and breathing. from what i understand, that comes from the attack and release settings, which i always keep pretty small.
olddogMember
Since: Jul 02, 2003
Aug 04, 2004 02:10 pm You might be using the wrong thing for what your going after as well forty. While compression does/will help a guitar more likely the sound your going after isn't going to come from compression.
Dan
Aug 04, 2004 03:24 pm i'd heard it was crucial for "bite"
Aug 04, 2004 03:32 pm Compression is a necessary effect, but it is very often overused...
I hate compression as a whole, but it is needed...the places I find it absolutely needed are on vocals and often guitar...
Aug 04, 2004 06:58 pm yeah, for a hard-hitting distortion sound, i at least need a bit. usually i record guitar with a bit of compression from my pod dialed in, and that works on 'auto.' there's just one knob to twist. it does even it out quite a bit and bring the sound up front. who knows, maybe thats really all i need. i'd still like to be able to experiment, though.
Aug 04, 2004 10:12 pm Well, Ive posted this before. I know you've seen this Fortymile. It is a guideline to help you get started with a hardware compressor. It has some generalized settings on it giving you a kinda idea where to set your compression levels for certain instruments and such. Sure, it isnt a substitute for listening and tweaking, but it gives you that oft needed "kick off" spot that gives you direction, instead of leaving you tweaking for hours and forgetting that you have an agenda that requires more than just spending countless hours messing with a single piece of gear. I KNOW that some of you guys know what Im talking about.
My suggestion, should you choose to accept, is that you more Pro guys take a look at this article, and add your own settings for different instruments for us "newer hands" to have a jump off place to start off at. Kinda a compression cheat sheet. Not to be used exclusively, of course, but for a good solid starting point. Whaddaya think?
www.harmony-central.com/E...pplications.pdf
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Aug 05, 2004 12:34 am Wow, cool thread! I gotta go with Jues, and yet only speak for myself; I just had to make mistakes, or if you prefer; do a lot of creative listening. I too learn best by taking the time to throughly understanding a piece of gear and experiencing what it does. All short cuts result in the same place for me, the time it takes. I anticipate the more I work with a compressor with interest the more I will learn. That has been my experience to date.
Aug 05, 2004 11:57 pm I absolutely agree Walt. There are no shortcuts that can be done with compression that can give you a better understanding of how it works. But it would be pretty nice to have an idea of how other people set their compressors to give you a starting point. When I first tried the settings on the link posted above, I immediately heard a terrible squashed sound for my vocals and knew that I had too much compression going on. I fiddled with the knobs a bit and got a pretty nice transparent sound going that I really liked. Every individual setting will be different depending on what you are recording, what you're recording WITH, and what levels you are set to. But it was really nice to have a place to begin, versus fiddling with knobs with no real idea of what I was doing. Not to mention, it'd be really cool to see what others are doing with compression that I might not even have thought of! I dunno, I think it'd be nice.
Cheers
Dave
