Electric Guitar Tone
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Posted on Apr 24, 2003 10:09 am
PorpoiseMuffins
a.k.a. Porp & Mr. Muffins
Member Since: Oct 09, 2002
I've looked all around and tried all sorts of techniques (Including Jues's), but I just can't get a good distorted electric guitar sound recorded. I'm micing an Epiphone Guitar through a 25 watt fender amp that sounds very good by itself. I've tried the double tracking, which helps a lot, but the tone is still either too thin or bassy. I want that modern punk rock mid-crunch sound. Nothing incredible, just something decent. Nothing crazy distorted or hardcore or anything. Just a nice, upfront, full sound that fits right into the mix. The best I've been able to do is try and copy the EQ curve on a pro CD and match it, but then I'm really overdoing the EQ and I don't think that engineers usually have to do that. Maybe I just need to be recording a big Marshall stack, but for some reason I don't think that would help that much.
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Apr 24, 2003 10:14 am How have you miked? Have you double miked the amp? One on the speaker and one back a couple feet (or farther)? When double tracking, have you panned them different and EQ'd them different, or were they the exact same sound? Even a slight difference in EQ could really fill up the sound.
You really shouldn't need a big Marshall Stack to get a big sound...
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Apr 24, 2003 10:55 am one thing that i've noticed is that it seems like you need less gain when you're recording vs when listening with your ear. it's best to listen to the tone how the recorder hears it, rather than how you hear it. i'm always looking for the minimum gain setting (above 5, but not above 8) on my distorted channel, and sometimes i even go a step further and turn down the volume knob on the guitar to fine-tune it.
bottom line, when you have crunch, you need plenty of clean tone and a bit of distortion...less than your ear needs. after all, you're not listening to the amp right up next to the speaker (how could you?) and your ears aren't microphones.
Apr 24, 2003 02:09 pm I've tried double micing the amp, but that didn't seem to do much for me-- I don't think I could get the phasing right. When I double track I pan them both 100% in opposite directions. I'm using an SM57 to mic the amp, and I monitor with headphones while I'm trying to find a good placement-- Although I need a better pair of phones that don't have so much bass in them (Or I need to build a wall between where I record and listen on my monitors). I'll try the thing about less gain; that might help, but I don't know how the overall EQ will sound. I usually end up micing dead center of the cone, although I've tried all sorts of positions, they just seem to muffle the sound. Maybe I'll make an mp3 of the sound I'm looking for and the sound I'm getting to show you guys. Thanks
Apr 24, 2003 03:49 pm The big problem here is that what I hear coming out of the amp is what I want to hear recorded on my computer, and yet no matter what I do, I can't get it to be! I've tried my GT66 mic to record as well, but I'm still not getting the sound I want. So there must be something about how It's getting recorded (Mic placement or something)
I put up a short clip on Nowhereradio. The first thing you hear is a short clip from the beginning of a song by the band Ghoti Hook that I like. Pay careful attention to the sound of the distortion-- I love it. The next thing you hear is my pathetic attempt to play the guitar (I'm not a guitar player...). Actually, It's a sample of how bad the amp sounds miced. I miced it how I mentioned I've done it before. (No doubling up though... I'm just keeping it simple). Thanks for helping me out. I would recommend you download the Mp3 so you can actually hear it in high quality. Here's the link (It's called Guitar Test):
www.nowhereradio.com/arti...547&alid=-1
So any advice would be much appreciated. At least now you can hear what I'm talking about.
stupeMember
Since: Apr 03, 2002
Apr 24, 2003 06:14 pm thats definately the amp issue porpoise. those small practice amps 25watts and under tend to sound a little cheesey. i would recommend getting a guitar modeler like the pod v2.0, mic'ing a more pro amp. that ghoti hook amp sounds like it could pass for a hughes and kettner Duotone.
Apr 24, 2003 06:22 pm Thanks for checking it out for me. I would agree that from that clip, the amp sounds like a piece of crap. However, if you were to hear it with your own ears I think you'd think that it's at least decent sounding. In fact, I've gotten compliments about the sound of the distortion on it before from other guitarists (Well, not me personally, since it isn't my amp). I really don't know what to think. I'll have to try micing up a larger amp when I get the chance.
Apr 24, 2003 06:44 pm Porpoise,
Keep in mind that what you hear when you play through that amp is the sound coming from the amp, then bouncing around in the room, then getting to your ears. If you stuck your head right up next to the amp where the mic probably was, you'd hear something different. Mic placement is KEY in getting a good guitar sound.
Listening to the clip you posted, I would say that you're not as far away as you might think. Keep in mind that the clip you're comparing your sound to has been mixed and mastered. About all I can tell you is to experiment with some more placements. Try double micing. Definitely try doubling the track, you'll be amazed at the difference it will make. And also, if you already have been trying the double micing, be real sure that you don't have the mics phasing on you. That will take a great guitar sound and turn it into dog food right quick!
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Apr 24, 2003 06:52 pm Porp,
Try moving the mic back a bit - as blue stated, your ears are hearing the sound of the room, and as a result, you want the mic to capture more of the room sound - move it away and up a bit to capture more of the ambience - then doulbe track that.
I would also reccomend using the GT66 mic as opposed to a 57 - but then I prefer the sound of a condensor on a cab than a dynamic (tho, as I stated in my tute, combining the two creates the best results)
jues.
Apr 24, 2003 07:21 pm Thanks. I'm definately going to try that out. I'll get back to you guys on the results.
Apr 25, 2003 11:05 am Well, it didn't do much good. However, I finally decided to see what it would sound like if I just hooked up my headphones to the amp's headphone jack. And guess what? It sounded like crud, just like when I mic it up! So I broke out the ol' ToneWorks effects processor (which I've never been able to get a decent distortion on, either) and I fooled around with it until I discovered a whole type of distortion on there that I had simply neglected before. It sounded nice and easy on the ears, yet crunchy. It's still not that great, but it's definately better. I haven't tried micing the amp up with it yet, only going direct, so I'll have to see how it sounds miced up. At least I figured out that my problem isn't the micing position so much as the sound coming out of the amp, as much as I thought otherwise.
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Apr 25, 2003 11:57 am well...listen to this:
64.147.14.11:801/project2_quikmix.mp3
i did that with my crappy crate 15w practice amp and an even crappier harmony guitar.
i used an SM57, and i didn't mic the cone. i turned up the gain and the level on the mixer so that i could hear the hiss very loud (make sure you don't have a barking dog nearby or your ears will explode). then i moved it to the point where it sounded like it was a more open, airy sound rather than the gritty sound of the cone. listening to your mp3, it sounds like it does have too much gain in comparison to the target guitar tone. seriously...play around with the volume knob on the guitar as well. and don't cut out the mids on the amp too much! i never bring mine below 3.5
hope this helps!
Apr 25, 2003 01:27 pm Sounds pretty cool. I actually have that same amp too, along with the larger Fender. I always crank the mids. Did you EQ that guitar any after it was recorded? I have gotten a sound a lot like that before with that amp, but I applied a ton of EQ and compared it to a pro guitar clip first.
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Apr 25, 2003 02:46 pm well, i wouldn't crank the mids. the standard fare for mids is to cut them a bit, because they're some of the less "pleasant" sounds. on that amp, i give the bass and treble a little boost, but cut the mids a little bit. nothing too drastic. yes, i EQ'd the guitar after recording. using a parametric equalizer, i did a high-pass at 80Hz to get rid of the lower bass frequencies, and did a small boost around 200Hz, then did a boost or cut wherever it made sense from experimentation.
a good frame of reference to keep in mind when checking out your crunchy distorted tone is that distortion is supposed to add to the clean tone. so you need plenty of clean tone in there (don't crank the gain).
Apr 25, 2003 03:05 pm I don't know, it seems like the guitars I hear on pro recordings have a great deal of upper mids and less highs and lows. It varies, but I love the mids on guitar. Everything else I cut them (probably too much). Well, maybe I'm wrong. I'm starting to get a better sound now, though. I'm going to keep on experimenting. Thanks
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Apr 25, 2003 03:14 pm when it comes to guitars, the frame of reference for what is considered lows and highs is a little different. the "bass" control on the guitar amp will be centered on a different spot than one on a bass amp or a PA.
in any case, certain mids are necessary, but mid controls on simple amps are usually dropped a little bit. they're considered to be the less "pleasant" frequencies, but are necessary to maintain the presence of the instrument.
Apr 25, 2003 06:55 pm hey mink i kinda like that mix you have going on in your recording. surprising what you can do with a 15 watt amp. hey though, porpoise, if you have the money i'd buy a POD. i still haven't mastered it, but the POD cranks out a relatively good simulation any sound you want...couple that with the sound processing capability of software, and im sure you can find what you need. i'd check ebay if youre short on cash, although amp modelers are coming down in price.
since theres a discussion about distortion going on here, i thought i'd ask my question. mink's comment: "a good frame of reference to keep in mind when checking out your crunchy distorted tone is that distortion is supposed to add to the clean tone. so you need plenty of clean tone in there" reminds me of what i have been trying to do as far as emulating the stone temple pilots "core" distortion tone. that was a good album for distortion. somehow they got a good layering of distortion and clean in there. anyone have any idea how to accomplish that, for a distortion sound? ( i hope i didnt ask this question before)
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Apr 25, 2003 07:24 pm thank you. i would like to EQ the track better, but i'll save that for when i record that song with real drums and better gear.
i know a lot of people really like the POD, but i hear the computer in it every time i use it, and it turns me off. i used the bass POD pro in my bass rig for a while, and i sold it to get an ampeg SVP-PRO (way better).
what particular song/parts are you talking about specifically? you could always try to track a clean track on there and fit it in with EQ and lower levels. i did that on a lighter track that i don't have posted, and it filled things out pretty well.
Apr 25, 2003 10:43 pm dang it.
thats like the second time i've heard someone say that about POD. its hard to tell for me...the POD is such an improvement over my old methods...i could never get realistic sounding guitars no matter what. and POD was so hyped...the instruction manual alone promised an end to all problems on every page. they talk like it was built by gods. i guess i still sort of believe that the POD plus plugins will give me what i need. so far i havent found the perfect recipe yet, but i think it could be out there.
does ampeg make guitar amp modelers too? why do you think ampeg is better?
Apr 25, 2003 10:45 pm as for STP core, i meant well, nearly any of the songs. i think its pretty obvious, the layering, on plush and especially sin.
sin has two guitars though.
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Apr 26, 2003 11:34 am i read the POD book and got excited as well, but instruction manuals are written by the company that builds the product, and they are under no obligation to be completely objective.
a lot of great recordings come from using the POD. i always like deftones records, and i've heard that POD is used on there in some fashion. a friend of mine was telling me how he thinks POD is OK, but that he likes the behringer v-amp more for some reason. fits well with certain things he's trying to achieve.
i don't think ampeg makes modelers. ampeg isn't necessarily better...they just build a mostly tube preamp, and i like the way it sounds. i also like having a separate preamp section from the poweramp, so that i can split the signal with a crossover and help reduce the load on my speakers. i use a QSC PLX2402 as a power amp, which is better built than the poweramp section of the ampeg model from whence the preamp came. once the time comes, i'll build my own preamp and be super purist about it (not "all-tube" purist).
i'll check out core and get back to you.
BrunoThe Quiet MindedMember
Since: Jan 01, 2003
Apr 26, 2003 06:35 pm well getting back to the original topic...
I was listening to your comparison and thought that there were other aspects that might have beeing ignore besides the miking stuff.
The guitar sound that you want has very litlle bottom end and the pickups seem to have a very different sound. There is also a big distortion level diference there. The sound you want has much less distortion than the example you recorded. I am posting this cause I felt that the answers to your question were too focused on the miking, but I really think that we must carefully thing about what comes before the sound reach the mic when we want to match a sound.
As for EQ, I reallyu dont think you should worry about the amout of EQ you are using in your mixing, if it sounds good with 8 or 12 boosts or cuts it is good. EQ is friend not foe!
Most of the guitar sounds I have recorded till now sounded weak before EQ.
Those were my two cents. Hope not useless!
Apr 26, 2003 06:45 pm Thanks Bruno. I know the sound on the clip is really a totally different kind of distortion sound (Although it doesn't sound that far off when you just hear the amp with your ears). I'm getting a much better sound now with a mulit-effects processor going through the amp, although I'm still using a good deal of EQ. I'm going to work on it some more as soon as I finish this darn English paper...
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Apr 26, 2003 09:09 pm I will just add my 2 cents worth here in praise of the POD. I bought a POD when they were first released. I actually ordered it before hearing it. I have not regretted it at all. In fact I dont even own a live rig anymore. Once you dig deep into the POD you can create just about anything you want with it. My preferances are the Triple rectifier and the Soldano with the Marshall cabinets. I have not had any bad reviews on the guitar tones I get as being to computer sounding or anything like that. Like I said, if you take the time to learn to use it and make it sound like you want. It really is udistinguishable from a real rig in the recording. I do use it through a live amp rig when I need to get feedback, but agian it is the POD which is emulating the rig I want it to.
Apr 26, 2003 10:55 pm Hmmm.... maybe I should consider buying one. The only thing is that it just seems a little "fake" to me (Not the sound-- just the concept), so I don't really know what to think. I would rather mic an amp if I can get it to sound decent, but it sounds like the POD is very versitile. Is it good for live use too?
Apr 26, 2003 11:04 pm woah noize, i would love to get my hands on some of your POD patches. sounds like you went into it more than i have.
hey, you know, porpoise's guitar sound here sounds very much like some of the POD sounds i downloaded from the net. there are a few POD nine inch nails patches floating around on the net...sounds from off of the broken album, where reznor employed several guitar sounds that were overloaded in the midrange as if he had run hi and lo-pass filters on them. i think they were also run through the POD's 'fuzz' pedal. i think these patches are interesting distortion sounds, but i dont use them for main guitar tracks: theyre noisy and im not enough of a programmer yet to make them have thier own special purpose in a song. porp's sound is reminding of them, hardcore. too much mids, and not enough depth.
what i'd suggest is to trash the amp, cause those small speakers are just too tiny to give a full bodied sound. they overload in the mids and highs. for all my complaints about POD, i still see it as the ultimate direct-recording solution. and i can use it any time of night at full blast.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Apr 26, 2003 11:04 pm I thought so too untill I tried it. I actually bought it just to have in case of emergency and for a toy to mess with. But after I got it home and dug into it with the SoundDiver software they provide, and started editing and creating my own patches for it. I found I liked it and its ease of use, and it also saved space in here. I do prefer to record with it in stereo, and I know it does give it a much fuller sound then if recorded in mono. But as I said I plyed with it for a while before I sold my guitar rig.
I know several people who are using it live, and they seem to like it alot. They are using it to suplement their live guitar rig. What they do is set up a clean channel with absolutely no EQ or high gain and then they use th POD to emulate differant amps through the gear they have.
Apr 26, 2003 11:09 pm oh yeah, as to whether POD's good live, there are several well known guitarists who plug POD right into the house PA system, not even bothering with an amp. i heard that the mr. bungle guitarist did this, and some other people too. i think the reason this thread is leaning into POD territory so much is that it solves distortion problems for people who are having so much trouble with miking that they want to pull thier hair out. thats how i was. my sound is not yet perfect. but compared to where i was when i was miking amps, its a whole different world, and there is no longer any hassle.
Apr 26, 2003 11:23 pm Cool
Apr 27, 2003 10:04 am Actually, come to think of it, I remember a band that roled through here a little while ago who used a rack mountable POD live (They put it right through their rig). In fact, they had both the guitar and bass ones. I didn't really know much about POD's at the time, but I remember thinking how good the distortion sounded. I went up and talked to the lead singer/guitar player and he told me he had spent hours and hours getting the sound just right. I bought their independant CD and when I asked him how they recorded guitar, he mentioned something about using the output on the back of that "thing" (the POD)! I totally forgot about that; I guess I just figured he didn't know what he was talking about or something :-) It sounded like they also miced the cab at the same time as going direct to get an even better sound recorded. I'm going to have to look into one of these things. They're kind of expensive though... Are the rackmountable ones basically the same as the tabletop ones in sound? Also, I know line 6 makes a whole line of amps with modeling right on the amps. Would it make more sense to just go out and buy one of those instead? Or are there more settings on a POD?
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Apr 27, 2003 11:01 am rackmount ones are called POD Pro. i think they have more features on the back panel.
Apr 27, 2003 11:23 am Heck lots of people use the POD rackmount, last time I caught John Paul Jones he had a POD Pro in his rig...actually two of them if I recall correctly.
Apr 27, 2003 11:40 am Do the line 6 guitar combo amps have like a pre-amp out that allows them to work direct like a POD? Or do the PODs have a lot more options?
Apr 27, 2003 06:45 pm i dont know about the amps. but one morning i woke up, and the POD had made breakfast for me.
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Apr 27, 2003 07:29 pm Hmmm
just to chip in the otherside of the "argument" - I think that POD's definatly have their place - but their place is a long way from rock and roll :\
bit of a bold statement I know - but Pod's just do not and will not have that sound which makes guitars show amazingly detailed and textured.
No digital gear will ever 100% emaulate the process of an audio signal getting amplified by a massive Valve in a powerful amp - they can get close, but due to it's very nature (random, "analouge") it will never quite hit it.
I agree that Guitar Mic'ing is difficult, but by God can you tell when it's been done right....
that's my 2p on the matter
jues.
Apr 27, 2003 08:11 pm Well, If I could afford a massive valve amp than that would be very nice... However, I think a POD would probably be better than micing a solid state practice amp with an SM57. Would you agree? I don't know, I'm just wondering.
Sometimes I wonder what people would think if digital had come before analog (If it could have). I wonder if there would be people saying, "it just doesn't have that digital sound I want..." :-) Just something to think about. Of course, this is coming from someone who can't very well tell the difference... I think some of it is just about that "classic" sound, while another part of it is the detail (If you can actually hear the difference). But analog has its downfalls, like consistancy. In that case, I think that if digital had come first, everyone would call analog unreliable. But don't get me wrong, I don't really care and I hope I'm not offending anyone. Okay, I'm rambling now.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Apr 27, 2003 08:21 pm Yes, their modeling amps have direct outs that will work the same as the POD. And the amps can be programed the same way as the POD.
Apr 28, 2003 12:49 am hm
yeah i dunno jues. i still cant tell the difference between real tube amps and everythign else. ive only ever played thru such an amp once...but my ears arent as skilled as a lot of other people's.
Apr 29, 2003 02:14 pm Has anybody ever tried any of the Johnson modeling amps before? A friend of mine is thinking about selling his 12 in speaker Johnson amp for probably pretty cheap and I'm wondering how they compare to Line 6's stuff. Noize, have you ever tried the J-Station? How do you think it compares in sound to the POD? Anybody tried it?
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Apr 29, 2003 11:01 pm I did try it but only briefly, not enough to give an honest opinion. Geoff wrote something on it www.homerecordingconnecti...tory&id=111 , it is brief but gets the point accross.
