cheap good quality 4 in/out mixer for drums
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Posted on Jan 05, 2010 05:46 pm
sirhc
Chris
Member Since: Aug 25, 2008
i mix to stereo right now using 2 OH and a kick mic
im thinking about adding a snare mic, but i really like the idea of drumagog...
so is there any pretty cheap good quality 4 channel in/out mixers?
would it be worth it just for drumagog? would it be worth it even if i didnt get drumagog?
maybe just stick with what i have?
thanks
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TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Jan 05, 2010 08:19 pm You can get 4 outputs from your MG10/2 mixer. Try this:
Run a cable from the insert of channel 1 and 2 to inputs 1 and 2 of your sound card. Turn the channel level (not gain) down all the way to keep these off of the main bus. When inserting a cable into the channel inserts, only put them in to the "first click", 1/2 way into the jack. This turns the inserts into direct outputs. So now you have 2 discrete outputs.
Now pan channel 3 hard left and channel 4 hard right and turn their levels (not gain) all the way up. This lets you use the main L and R outputs as channel 3 and 4 respectively. so now you have 2 more discrete outputs.
Add it all up and you've got 4 independant outputs.
But I see that you're using an M-Audio Audiophile 24/96, which only has 2 inputs. So you're going to need an audio interface that has at least 4 inputs in order to record each of your mixer's outputs on its own track.
sirhcChrisMember
Since: Aug 25, 2008
Jan 05, 2010 08:59 pm thats pretty genious i must say, thanks!
also would i be able to use the "S/PDIF digital I/O with PCM and AC-3/DTS passthrough" somehow?
er is it possible to use the audio out as inputs!? i could connect my speakers to my mixer.. wait i guess not oh well i could just connect headphones to my computer??
sirhcChrisMember
Since: Aug 25, 2008
Jan 05, 2010 09:05 pm maybe i could enable my onboard, and use the stereo line in?
although i think il get hiss/clicks:\
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Jan 05, 2010 10:11 pm Does the new MG 10/2 have S/PDIF output? I have the old version before they started adding the compressor. If it does, then I can't think why you couldn't use it to connect to the Audiophile. Should work fine, as far as I know. But I don't really have any experience with S/PDIF so there may be some hidden pitfall that I don't know about.
sirhcChrisMember
Since: Aug 25, 2008
Jan 05, 2010 10:23 pm mine doesnt either, i wasnt sure if i could just send audio from my mixer into the spdif in on my 2496 interaface!?
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Jan 06, 2010 02:51 pm I personally think that once you get all your inputs seperated to their own tracks, the control you will have vs. a stereo mix may change your mind about drumagog. It really is fantastic software but... it's not cheap and I find I use it less and less as i get better at mixing/processing drums.
SPDIF from your mixer to an interface will still only yeild a stereo track. It is nice due to the fact that it's digital and their is no conversion, but it sums everything into a stereo signal.
Also, I did not know the 2496 only accepts two inputs, bummer. Looks like you may need to invest in more of an interface, then you can bypass your mixer.
sirhcChrisMember
Since: Aug 25, 2008
Jan 06, 2010 06:15 pm whats a recommended interface for pretty cheap?
also, maybe id wanna go with 8 input interface for future expansion if its not to much more expensive then a 4 input
oh ps i dont have firewire so i think that limits me
also, my motherboard does not have a place for me to install a firewire connection so thats not possible either! unless there is such a thing that gives you firewire from pci? if i take out the 2496 il have a pci slot open... right now i have pci/e x1 slots open
(didnt no id be recording when i originally built this comp, its kinda more for gaming but it gets the job done pretty easily)
sirhcChrisMember
Since: Aug 25, 2008
Jan 06, 2010 06:59 pm oh yea and wouldnt i still need my mixer for phantom? (Samsun C02 condensor OH's)
or do interfaces have this?
thanks again!
J-botByte-MixerMember
Since: Dec 04, 2007
Jan 06, 2010 10:04 pm It depends on the interface, but certain interfaces do have phantom power. I know the front 2 mic inputs on my Echo Audiofire4 are phantom powered. The back 4 inputs are 1/4" only though, and are not powered.
Also, firewire PCI cards do exist. I'm using one in my machine now and it works fine. They're pretty much dirt cheap too. Like about 12 bucks or so. Two good looking ones on newegg are made by Syba and Rosewill. I forget which one I'm using though.
As for the interface, how many powered inputs would you need? My Audiofire4 has the two front mic inputs, but like I said, the 4 inputs on the back are not powered. Also, would the interface need midi in/out? S/PDIF, etc.?
The Echo I have is the Audiofire 4, which runs about $300. I think the next one up though is the 8, which is closer to $500. But with the Audiofire 4, you get 2 powered universal inputs (it accepts XLR or 1/4"), and 4 line-level inputs on the back which are 1/4" The 2 outputs on the back are also 1/4". So you're looking at 6 inputs total.
You could also look at the Line6 interfaces which are good quality, and pretty affordable. They are also USB. The UX2 is used by several people around here, but I'm not sure if it has enough inputs. Here's what the UX2 has, taken from zzounds:
---------------------------------------------
Two 1/4-inch guitar inputs (normal or pad), two balanced XLR inputs with mic preamps, phantom power and trim knobs, 1/4-inch stereo monitor input, two 1/4-inch line inputs, two balanced 1/4-inch line out, S/PDIF digital out, 1/4-inch stereo headphone out with level control, assignable VU meters
------------------------------------------------
But no midi in/out unfortunately (though the KB37 has midi, I don't know if it has enough in the way of input channels)
And there's plenty of options in the firewire range as well. However, for 8 channels, you may be looking in the $500-ish range, possibly more depending on the brand/manufacturer and model. Probably about $300 or less for 4 or 6 channels.
sirhcChrisMember
Since: Aug 25, 2008
Jan 06, 2010 11:04 pm well im thinkin 6 inputs most now..
i dont really need phantom as i can get it from my mixer but having two inputs with phantom would allow me to take the mixer out of the equation...
midi isnt really a problem as everything midi i have i can hook up to usb...
i dont have much equipment, and most of my cables are xlr to xlr so an interface with pretty much all xlr inputs would be nice too
so i guess usb, firewire, and straight pci are all possible for me then
il check out the audiofire thanks
sirhcChrisMember
Since: Aug 25, 2008
Jan 06, 2010 11:34 pm anything for around 150 thats decent quality? aha :(
cuz i gota buy an sm57 so thats like $100? what should i look for in price for an sm57?
then depending on the interface i might have to buy some xlr to 1/4" cables so if the interface had 2 xlr, then id have to get 2 so thats another $ 50, and id really like to keep it under 300.. aha maybe it isnt possible idk
so does anything come to mind for 150? even if its 4 inputs (id like 5 or 6) but i mean for $150 i doubt il get it....
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Jan 07, 2010 12:30 am I use a Delta 44 with my MG 10/2. It has 4 inputs, 4 outputs and runs for $150. It's a PCI card so no FireWire required. The drivers allow you to chain several Delta cards together, so each extra 4 inputs would only cost $150 (but you'd need preamps for them, which definitely adds to the cost).
I use my MG10/2 for its preamps and phantom power and use the above method for running 4 inputs into the Delta 44. The only trouble is monitoring. If you're only using 2 inputs on your mixer, you can route 2 outputs back into the MG 10/2 using one of the stereo line input channels for monitoring via headphones or speakers. But using the above method, it doesn't leave any free channels for monitoring. You have to route the Delta's outputs to a powered set of monitors or speaker system instead.
What may be a good idea is to invest in a mixer with more channels/preamps, like the MG 16/4. That plus a couple of Delta 44 cards would be a good combo.
Or there are some PreSonus FireWire cards that have up to 8 channels, all with preamps built in to the interface. Like J-Bot said above, FireWire PCI cards are cheap. Just make sure they have a Texas Instruments chipset on them or else a lot of the FireWire interfaces will throw a fit and develop mysterious driver issues.
For an SM57, if you're vigilant about checking eBay, you can get ones for as low as $50 sometimes. $75 seems to be a common price at a quick glance at eBay. I got mine new for around $85 from Musician's Friend several years ago.
sirhcChrisMember
Since: Aug 25, 2008
Jan 07, 2010 08:38 am so if i went with a delta 44,
could i use my mixer for phantom on my two OH's, and just put my d11 and sm57 straight to the interface?
then i could still route the moniters into my mixer right?
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Jan 07, 2010 10:19 am The Delta series doesn't have preamps, just 1/4" line inputs. So you'll need preamps for anything you send into it.
sirhcChrisMember
Since: Aug 25, 2008
Jan 07, 2010 03:10 pm ohhh ok, i just dont understand the problem with routing back to the mixer (it wont be a problem anyways, as i use powered speakers now), im just curious...
and im pretty sure im going to go with the delta 44, thank you
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Jan 07, 2010 06:57 pm Quote:
i could connect my speakers to my mixer..
This, and Tad's mention about routing back to the mixer should work, as the mg10/2 has 2 sets of stereo inputs: 7/8 and 9/10
So you can plug 4 signals into the mixer
Send 2 channels to Delta 1&2 via channel inserts.
Send 2 channels to Delta 3&4 via main outputs.
Hmm, now it gets tricky.
You can send Delta Outputs 1 & 2 to inputs 9/10 on the mixer. This will put the recorded signal back into the main bus. That's not good, as you're sending main bus to the PC. So you'd have a nasty loop.
hmmm, this IS tricky . . .
I'm thinking now, that you can send 1&2 out the inserts,
but send 3&4 out the AUX sends. (i haven't checked, but I'd hope they can be used this way). Make channel 3 go out send 1, and make channel 4 go out send 2.
Now, receive output 1&2 from delta into 9/10.
Connect speakers to ST out, which is MAIN out, i believe.
Now you can hear all signals coming from mixer: incoming signals, and pre-recorded signals. After gain is set, you can now use the channel faders to change how much signal is getting to the monitor system (speakers or headphones).
This will give you direct monitoring (not going through the PC) or monitor through the PC. Both have their merits, but this way you'll have a choice.
Oo, one more thing: you can control the speakers and headphones separately. CR/Phones volume for HP, and ST for speakers. Nice.
I think that should do it.
sirhcChrisMember
Since: Aug 25, 2008
Jan 07, 2010 07:13 pm wow, people here are so smart, it always amazes me haha
hm i think i can do what your saying...
i have a stereo aux send jack so id have to get a left/right splitter, and so to use this i just turn aux levels full, channel 3 faded to left and channel 4 faded to right? - thats pretty genious
then use the inserts as direct outs for the other two..
so now the main bus is free so i can route back to my mixer to speakers or go direct from computer to speakers
have i understood this correctly? haha
thanks SO much!
sirhcChrisMember
Since: Aug 25, 2008
Jan 07, 2010 07:17 pm
my mixer exactly - if it helps :) (click for text readable view ;])
haha wow, i might actually be able to record 4 seperate tracks with only $300 more! super excited haha
oh yea one more quick question...
i dont know how the delta 44 boxes add on, so how? is it like i use an input to add the 4? so basically im adding 3 inputs from a breakout box? or a different way so im adding 4?
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Jan 07, 2010 07:29 pm oh, that's the mg10/2c, not the mg10/2. i was looking at the non-'C' version, so some parts may be different.
But it sounds like you get the idea, so you should get it going.
If that's a stereo send, then you're set. Pan left & right for AUX send, and they will be separate, after the splitter.
Have fun.
sirhcChrisMember
Since: Aug 25, 2008
Jan 07, 2010 07:33 pm alright il double check that its stereo.. id assume it is though..
thanks so much, again
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Jan 07, 2010 07:33 pm Nope, just put in the second PCI card, and then in the ASIO control panel for the delta you have more inputs. The asio driver sees all 8 inputs like it was on 1 interface. Something like that, anyway. It's done in software, after you install the second PCI. So you'll need 2 pci slots open for 2 deltas to work.
You'll need more preamps too, just so you know.
I haven't used the double up thing for deltas, but I had a 1010lt for awhile, and used their asio control panel for that.
You may want to look at the delta 1010 (or little brother; 1010lt). They have 8 i/o each. Or the nice interface I'm using, the ESP1010 from ESI. I think they've gone PCI-E now, so my PCI card is obsolete.
Still works dandy though =)
sirhcChrisMember
Since: Aug 25, 2008
Jan 07, 2010 07:36 pm sounds good!:)
sirhcChrisMember
Since: Aug 25, 2008
Jan 08, 2010 07:30 am well the maya 44 i can get for $100..no breakout box (one mic pre amp but i dont know where in pictures)
the delta 44 is $130..with a breakout box (pci)
delta1010lt is $150...
yamaha audiogram 6 is $100, (usb) (2 preamps)
il keep looking.. was the delta recomended for quality or price? or both? cuz the ability to add more isnt really an option for me...
thanks:)
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Jan 08, 2010 10:48 am That ESP1010 from ESI looks awesome, pjk. I've seen it mentioned a few times around here but I'd never gone to read about it until now. Where the heck do you buy them? I Googled it and didn't find it at any of the major online retailers.
The Delta series is an older series of interface. I love mine, it's absolutely rock-solid, never had any driver issues or hardware issues with mine. It's just an aging platform. M-Audio is slow to release new drivers for it when new operating systems come out (the wait for Vista drivers was downright silly, like 6 or 8 months) because they put their more popular USB and FireWire interfaces higher in priority. And most of M-Audio's new stuff comes with preamps on at least a couple of channels. But the D/A and A/D conversion on the Delta cards is terrific. Great quality cards for the money if you can supply your own preamps.
Just a quick lowdown on the Delta series:
The Delta 44 is 4in/4out with a breakout box
The Delta 66 is 4in/4out plus S/PDIF with a breakout box
The Delta 1010LT is 10in/10out with all of the inputs/outputs hanging off the back of the PCI card and no breakout box
The Delta 1010 is 10in/10out with a breakout box
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Jan 08, 2010 11:36 am Here's the place where I bought mine:
www.floridamusicco.com/pr...od~esp1010e.htm
I paid 299 for my ESP1010 (pci version), but that was 2 or 3 years ago. This one looks like 499. ug, that's a lotta green for PCI-E.
Yamaha AG6: 4-channel USB Audio Interface with 2 Microphone/Line Inputs, 2 Stereo RCA/1/4" Channels, Onboard Compression, Phantom Power, and Cubase AI Recording Software - 16-bit/44.1kHz
I don't know if the 16bit/44.1khz is a major point for you, it is for some people. Many other interfaces are 24bit and can support up to 96khz (with a few 192khz). I usually record at 24bit / 48khz, but i may go back to 16/44 as it's easier on the PC and no dither necessary when rendering.
I think maudio has a 4 preamp input device that's USB, yep, and it's 8x8: www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/FastTrkUltra/
Nice piece of kit for 350$, i'd think, if you were partial to USB.
Not sure on the Maya44. Looks good, but i'm not sure on how to plug things in =?
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Jan 08, 2010 11:39 am Oh yeah, the ESI1010 has a E-WDM driver, which gives you a virtual patch kit. You can plug a virtual cable from one sound interface (like asio) over to another sound interface (like WDM) so you can record from one program directly into another, as long as they're not on the same software interface.
DIrectWire, i think it's called.
Works a treat, it does.
sirhcChrisMember
Since: Aug 25, 2008
Jan 08, 2010 03:15 pm hm im getting less and less decisive...
is there like a "basic" order of quality? (even if not always true)
ex firewire> pci-e> pci> usb, ? is the yamaha ag6 cheap cuz of 16/44?
btw im using google products search and looking at the lowest price thats had decent amount of ratings
im basically stuck to the price range for the 4/4 interfaces, but the delta 10/10lt is still in my price range..
how conveniant are breakoutboxes?, i mean delta 44 has one, but for not much more, i can get double the inputs but no breakout box!
oh yea the maya 44 is pci... 2 stereo jacks out 2 stereo jacks in (would need splitters or "combiner" i guess in this situation, to get use of the 4 channels in.. (not a very good idea i dont think, too much noise probably!) and like i said i have no idea where this pre amp mic in jack is! haha
sirhcChrisMember
Since: Aug 25, 2008
Jan 08, 2010 03:52 pm ok well, maya is out because of the stereo jacks, and ag6 is out cuz its 16/44 and iv always been taught to keep as many doors open as possible..
so basically my last question is, convenience of a box (delta 44) or more inputs (delta 1010lt)?
thanks! =]
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Jan 08, 2010 04:22 pm Well, i had a 1010lt for awhile, but it burned in a house fire, and i got the esp1010 to replace it.
The breakout box gives you a nice place to connect your cables, but I had a 1/4" -> RCA snake from HOSA. It had 8 connectors on each end, so i connected from my mixer inserts directly to the RCA inputs on the 1010lt.
RCA connectors are sometimes considered inferior to 1/4" jacks, but I never noticed any difference.
Another consideration, is that the breakout box has the converters in the box, not inside the card, like on the 1010lt.
So, it's a trade-off.
4 in / 4 out with possibly a better sound, or
8 in / 8 out with possibly less quality.
Personally, I didn't have a problem with the 1010lt, but i'm a hobbyist, so take my opinion as such. Plus I wanted more than 4 inputs, though I usually don't use more than 3 or 4 at a time =).
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Jan 08, 2010 04:31 pm The breakout box is just a matter of convenience. I happen to like having all of my ins and outs on my desktop, right in front of me. But if you don't switch around your studio much, its just as easy to make the connections behind the computer instead. It's not a must-have feature, just a nice-to-have.
I looked at the manual for that Maya 44 and I see what you mean about the connectors. But I honestly don't think that they would degrade the signal at all. it just looks like you'd need a few insert cables (or Y-cables, or 1xTRS male to 2xTS male, or I'm sure you could find a few other names for the same cable). You'd plug the TRS side into the Maya and the L and R TS into separate outputs of your mixer.
For example:
Plug a mic into Channel 1 of your MG10/2. Plug the mono L side of the Y-cable half-way into the Channel 1 insert jack.
Then Plug a mic into Channel 2 of your MG10/2. Plug the mono R side of the Y-cable half-way into the Channel 2 insert jack.
Then plug the TRS side of the Y-cable into input 1 of the Maya. Somewhere in the software or control panel for the maya, you should be able to tell it that it should use the L and R from input 1 as 2 mono channels instead of 1 stereo channel.
Then you'd do a similar thing with the Aux send for Channels 3 & 4 like PJK outlined above, sending the L and R of a Y-cable into input 2 of the Maya. And you should be able to seperate the L and R of input 2 on the Maya into 2 mono signals as well.
There shouldn't be any signal degradation there because you're making good contacts the whole way through the signal chain. No adapters (which are signal killers/manglers).
This is all conjecure on my part since I've never used that card. But it's a pretty common feature to be able to use stereo inputs as 2 mono inputs as well.
But a lot of people here have used the Delta 1010LT with great results. It's just that finding preamps for the 8 non-preamped inputs is kind of a chore. But I'm sure that some of the current and previous owners of 1010LTs will chime in if you ask what they did for preamps. Maybe start a new thread about it if you start seriously considering it.
I have to admit though, that I haven't shopped for an interface for a while. When I bought my Delta 44, the USB and FireWire devices were in their infancy and were unreliable and generally pretty crappy. They've come a long way since then, so I'm not very familiar with their current capabilities, quality, stability, or ease of use. Hell, PCI-e cards weren't even around when I bought my Delta (or at least I'd never heard of them at the time). But the affordable interface market has absolutely exploded in the last 5 years or so. It's a great time to be buying a new interface. The only bad part is the difficulty of making a choice and trusting your decision.
Well, good luck and keep shopping. We'll do whatever we can to help answer your questions to the best of our knowledge. We can't promise that our advice is worth anything more than you've paid for it though ;-) But collectively, the forum members here have used a ton of different interfaces.
sirhcChrisMember
Since: Aug 25, 2008
Jan 08, 2010 04:39 pm hmm, well, i think if i was to ever use more than 4, id have to have more preamps for the 1010 , so that would probobly include a new mixer, so id end up spending more money...
i think im goin with the delta 44, aha thanks for puttin up with all my questions!
and thanks for that about buying a complete cable to avoid a splitter (didnt even know they made those!)
iv had good support from m-audio in the past on my audiophile 2496, so im inclined to stick with them.
thanks everyone!
sirhcChrisMember
Since: Aug 25, 2008
Jan 10, 2010 03:13 am hm well, i shouold be gettin my sm57 tomorrow.. but i cant seem to find the delta 44 anywhere for a decent price that ships to canada!.. i almost had a used one for $90... but it had sold already!
i did a search and found lots of forums talking about buying from canada, but there kinda older threads and i was wonderin if anyone knows of anything?
did any of the majors start shipping to canada?
