Getting A Great Bass Recording - So Frustrating! Please Please Advise!

> > > Getting A Great Bass Recording - So Frustrating! Please Please Advise!

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Member Since: Jul 04, 2009

Sorry if this seems a redundant topic. I do read other posts. I have searched a lot on the net and am finding few answers to my problem. Maybe because there are so many variables to this issue. (?) Back in the heady days of tape, good bass sound was never much of a problem. I presently use Digi001 (sorry, I'm stuck with that til budget allows something more serious.. yes, I know "the converters suck", etc, etc). My first bass guitar recording into this was A SONIC DISASTER - I'm sure you all know that horrid, hollow "plunky" milk can kind of sound that was supposed to be a bass. Welcome to digital recording, right? I was foolish enough to go straight into the DAW when I was new at digital recording.

Well, I needed a new bass anyway..

So, one jolly day I got halfway drunk, opened up my shirt & messed up my hair, deliberately looking like a slob cuz I was about to drop a G or so on a decent bass, and didn't want the dudes at Guitar Center jumpin' on me for their G.P.'s. (That's inside talk for Gross Profit dollars - which was how their commission was based before all the cream rose to the top.. before the somewhat knowledgeable folks were replaced by clerks who nowadays don't give a rat's rectum whether you buy or not. And these were PRE-recession times!) Well, sure enough, the lion's avoided me and I finally got my lamb.. some new guy who was polite enough to approach me with my sorry looking appearance and offer me help. (I'd love to buy a new care like this one day). And for that, I laid right down for a USA Fender Jazz with dynamic pickups. I'm not a buy & return, free-rent slimebag either.. I keep what I buy.

So I recorded with that and still wasn't satisfied, tho the sorry milkcan plunk sound was somewhat alleviated. (Yes, the battery was fresh). So, I later went to Guitar Center (I know... I'm a glutton for punishment), after tons of preamp research, and got an Art MPA GOLD tube pre for under $300. It seemed the best for my budget, which by now was a-hurtin', and ya know, "An imperfect decision on time is better than the perfect one too late."

BTW, I had gone to GC no less than THREE times (between TWO diff GC stores).. and left empty-handed, after I was planning to buy, cuz the bums just couldn't pay any mind. And it was not busy, and I looked good. Maybe I shoulda played the slob again. But by now, I think the better crowd receded into Deep Space Nine and the Next Generation clerks had fully come on the scene. GC musta thought that they'd work for cheap just because "it's such a cool business to work in." And boy does it show!!!! I went in there just the other day planning to load up my GC credit card for a D.I. box or somethin' and no one there knew anything about it. Again. I left -- you guessed it ... empty-handed.

Okay, no more joking. But I do hope I made you laugh.. at least a little?
Please guys, pity me and my ignorance.

I do imagine that going through an amp would help, using pre-out into DAW.

Someone suggested a tube D.I.

Others have been impressed with bass pods, or presets within Roland DAW units, etc. For some things, that may be fine. But for me, it seems the genuine original bass sound is a good starting point.

And plugs for my digi rig might prove to be further artifice, or at least not getting me at that "best" starting point I just mentioned. Whether that's a valid point or not, I'll leave for you experts to decide.

But most of all, my G4 is slow, having dual 450s, and I've already been majorly bummed with nightmare latency by feeding several SR16 tracks in simultaneously, (for the sake of sep track isolation for each part of the drum set in a mix studio later) and was forced to use sequencing for them, to stop the latency.

Okay, no further rambling. Any suggestions on how to get my bass to sound warm, present & solid?

Add a D.I. to my signal chain, along with my tube pre?

Get a passive D.I?..since I have dynamic pickups? Not that the dynamic pickups seem to make a world of difference. I adjusted the EQ on the bass to optimum sound settings and it's ok, but not life changing. Those old pre CBS Jazz basses I used still seemed to blow it away. Or was it the tape? Even my old Hofner sounded better.

Thanks in advance for any advice offered!

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Member
Since: Jul 04, 2009

Jul 04, 2009 06:02 pm

My current thought is to get a passive DI and use that with my ART preamp. Later I'll get a decent bass amp and mic it using my sm7 on one track, and direct on another. That should give smokin results, so I hear.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks!

http://www.reverbnation.com/2ndg
Member
Since: Nov 27, 2007

Jul 04, 2009 09:58 pm

hey FG.
i just did some recording and i miced the bass amp and did a DI. from the back of the amp into my pre.
for the music im doing i really just ended up using the DI signal after playing with both mics in the mix for quite a while.

it would i guess depend on the music youre doing but i would stick with the DI. from the amp, straight into your pre.

ive heard of some people micing up the strings of the bass though too. not tried that yet.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Jul 04, 2009 11:49 pm

It is somewhat dependent on the type of music, but not completely.

A decent DI is good to have if you have no DI output on an amp.

I just tweaked a track for a friend who used a Tech 21 Sansamp unit. This is the one I do believe. www.zzounds.com...item--TCHVTBASS and it sounded very stellar without much monkeying around. He stated the next one up which is around the $199 mark was even a better choice but this was his price limit at the time.

Member
Since: Jul 04, 2009

Jul 04, 2009 11:58 pm

yeah i keep seeing the Sansamp around the net. It's likely more than i need, since I already have a tube preamp. I could probably get by with a good passive DI for a lot less. But i will certainly keep the Sans in mind. I don't presently have a bass amp, and that's no place to skimp on the bucks. Thank you Noize & Deon for your great feedback! (No pun intended :-)

FG

Member
Since: Jul 04, 2009

Jul 05, 2009 12:00 am

Oh, and Happy 4th!!

Typo Szar
Member
Since: Jul 04, 2002

Jul 05, 2009 12:09 am

The Sansamp gets alot of kudos, which it has due for sure, but alot of ppl look over the MXR Bass DI unit which is an amazing piece of gear. In many instances it can replace an amp by providing the tone and also organic sound bassists need. My bassist has one and it almost INSURES that no matter where he goes and wat amp hes playing on he can dial in his tone.

Member
Since: Jul 04, 2009

Jul 05, 2009 12:32 am

Thanks for that, crux.


Oh, BTW, I forgot to mention... when I recorded bass thru my tube pre, it sounded better, but nothing to be really proud of. It still wimpified in the punch & strength department. And that's regardless to volume or EQ settings.

Lack of proper level/impedance matchup is highly suspect here. That's why a DI seems to be a key focus in my case, especially since I don't presently have an amp.

Getting a Sansamp or such certainly appeals to the gearlust, as I like to call it. And new toys are always fun. But it seems redundant and will cost quite a bit more, I believe, for an active DI. Redundant cuz I already have a tube pre. Still, that gear twitch is twitchin' inside, and my arm is pre-twisted, and the fool and his money (which he doesn't have) are soon parted. Besides, wifey will kill me if I run up the debt any higher. But seriously, i will be looking hard at these options. Thanks again!!

Oh, since this isn't Sweetwater's forum, I can say this (tho I do have much respect for Sweetwater)...

As far as I know, you can still order from SamAsh dot com, TAX FREE, if you live outside of Florida. (No, I don't work for them! Just wanting to pass on a good tip. I got my Access Virus Classic from them tax free, saving me nearly a hundred bucks). It's only worth while on big purchases where the tax is far greater than the shipping. This may have changed by now, or will soon, since the cronies in congress are closing every loophole possible and will be doin some unbelievable stuff soon. You ain't seen nothin yet!

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Jul 05, 2009 06:54 pm

You know the passive DI would be good, as I just re-read your other post's.

I think something as simple as getting the bass recorded with that set up as good as it can be. Then in the software you would apply a good dose of heavy compression. That will tighten up a sagging bass with no punch for sure. I do it all the time when I have a limp bass track.

Member
Since: Jul 04, 2009

Jul 07, 2009 02:28 pm

Since using a compression plug would be a drain on my CPU usage, my thought is to use an outboard compressor going in, I have an ART PRO VLA, so that should help, altho it may be trickier getting it right before going in versus applying it after th fact. Thoughts anyone?

Frisco's Most Underrated
Member
Since: Jan 28, 2003

Jul 07, 2009 03:03 pm

Quote:
I do it all the time when I have a limp bass track.

You don't know how relieved I am you said "bass track". That could have been damaging...

http://www.unitedmusicians.info
Contributor
Since: Nov 11, 2007

Jul 07, 2009 07:56 pm

Sansamp: yes! Sonic Maximizer: I think so! Outboard Compressor: If you can afford it! SVT Classic head: In my humble lack of experience, nothing sounds better.

Sansamp for punchy power, Sonic Maximizer to bring out the transients, outboard compressor because...because that's the thing to do for good bass tone.

As far as recording...I've heard good things about using two tracks: a DI track that also sends to a mic'd bass amp, which is recorded to the second track. Mix to taste. I hear it sounds real nice. In my example I'd put the sonic maximizer/compressor/sansamp before the DI. I bet putting some reverb on the mic'd track would sound better than on the DI track.

That's what I would try...but I'm a n00b.


Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Jul 07, 2009 09:03 pm

And yes, you can use the compressor on the way in as well. It will take some messing about to get what you want in the sound as there is no hard fast settings.

Member
Since: Jul 04, 2009

Jul 08, 2009 04:01 am

I thought the DI is best put at the beginning of the signal chain.. then preamp.. then compressor before going in. I believe there's a logical sequence to this, such as getting your signal balanced and matched up BEFORE any further processing like compression should take place. I know there are "no rules" and "add & stir to taste", but...
isn't this considered to be the best way?

Nice to see the universally glowing reviews of Sansamp all over the net. I'm tempted to go out and buy one, and spend more money I don't have just like the jolly gov't. Darn, I gotta take my D50 down to Roland for repairs. and maybe settle for a less-glorified DI for now.

And then again...

Abomb Muchbaby
Member
Since: Jul 02, 2009

Jul 08, 2009 08:34 am

Not sure if someone said this yet (don't have the time right now to read all these), but one thing that seems to work well for me is to use a mic or two on the amp, and then also run one direct out of the amp. Depending on the amp, some amps will not do both simultaneously, but this allows you to have two different sounds and you can blend them and mix them together to help get a more... full/dynamic tone. Good luck man.

Member
Since: Jul 04, 2009

Jul 08, 2009 09:40 am

Thanks Adam - Yes this has been covered, and it is a great approach in rounding out the bass sound!

Czar of Turd Polish
Member
Since: Jun 20, 2006

Jul 08, 2009 12:01 pm

Compression, although it uses CPU is one of the least demanding plugins aside from EQ in my experience. I would much rather have control after recording than re-tracking due to my outboard comp not being what I want.

Just a thought.

Also, don't forget that once you apply FX most DAW apps have a lock/freeze function that applies all FX, re-creates the .wav with said FX and then references that file on playback instead of applying them in real time.

Prince CZAR-ming
Member
Since: Apr 08, 2004

Jul 08, 2009 03:14 pm

I plug my sr400 fretless into my mixer preamp, then gain stage for a phat signal.

Once tracked, I work kinda hard on getting it to sound where I want it. I don't think I'll get a decent signal recorded from an amp (in my basement, anyway) so I just go for something I can work with, then adjust in software to get what I want.

ymmv, imho, etc.


I am not a crook's head
Member
Since: Mar 14, 2003

Jul 08, 2009 03:35 pm

I've never had to do more than run my bass direct into an ART Tube MP preamp and into the line inut on my interface. All you have to do is search on "ART Tube Preamp" on these forums and you'll see that I'm not a big fan of those units. But they do a great job as a bass DI. Plus Musician's Friend is selling them for $30 nowadays. It's no SansAmp, but for $30 its definitely the best bass DI you'll find.

While monitoring, I'll add a bunch of compression (low threshold, relatively high ratio, fast attack and slow release) and a lot of makeup gain. After tracking, I generally keep the compression and back off of the makeup gain a bit for the mixdown.

I like a solid, unwavering low end to my music even though I don't really play heavy music. The compression keeps a solid foundation going the whole time. A multiband compressor is a good tool for this. You can really set a low threshold and higher ratio for everything below 120Hz to maintain a solid, strong low end. Then you can set more relaxed compression settings for the 120Hz and up range so that you still retain some life in the upper frequqncy range.

Member
Since: Jul 04, 2009

Jul 11, 2009 01:08 pm

As mentioned, I do have an ART MPA GOLD tube pre. I don't know if this alone adequately takes care of all signal level/impedance matching issues going into DAW, but I'm still planning to get a DI soon and try it out. Also, I did not, so far, try running bass thru compressor, on the way in. This will likely make a considerable difference.

Also, I will eventually replace those sorry tubes inside my pre and comp with some good Russian-made or other. As often discussed on diff sites, this makes quite a difference in sound quality as well.

Thanks everyone for all your good & thoughtful feedback!

I am not a crook's head
Member
Since: Mar 14, 2003

Jul 13, 2009 09:35 am

Oh yeah that MPA Gold blows away the Tube MP in every aspect. It should be no problem to run a bass direct through that. I'd expect great results.

More than likely, the tubes that came in your MPA Gold are Russian. Sovtek are the usual stock tubes that companies put in their equipment, mainly because they're rugged and can survive the shipping and handling process better than a lot of other tubes.

Different tubes will make a difference, but it'll be subtle in a preamp. One track at a time, you might not even hear a difference at all.

Member
Since: Jul 23, 2004

Sep 12, 2009 07:55 am

I used to have problems recording bass. As a bassist primarily, that really sucked.

Here is my new method of recording bass..
1st make bass sound good through amp.. pref tube amp, or tube pre into poweramp.
big condensor MICROPHONE about one foot and a half in front of my 4x10, build a tent of blankets around the cab and mic.. being sure not to bother or interfere with the mic.. whole thing completely enclosed. PLAY LOUD! presto wonderful bass tone.

okay it helps that I play through a tube pre. I have the sansamp and use it for backup or direct out to live pa.. but the solid state tone is not as rich as real tubes.. after all, the sansamp is trying to emulate tube sound.. I would never use it anymore for tone.

Regarding tubes in pre.. I personally did not like the Sovtek 12ax7 sound (too harsh/brash) so I replaced with JJ Electronic's ecc83s. . much smoother, easier to trigger the distortion with harder playing or back off for cleaner.. smoother response.
There are lower mu tubes (lower distortion) that can replace the standard 12ax7.. like the JAN Phillips 5751 which has 70% of the distortion of a 12ax7.. and sound a bit darker.. perhaps too dark for passive bass, but nice on an active bass guitar.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002

Sep 12, 2009 09:31 am

Hmmmm, well, I haven't read this full thread, just the first and last posts, and I have a couple comments, as a bass player and mastering engineer...

For starters, the blanket tent mentioned above, from my experience, results in a very heavy, full, obnoxious tone. However, it may be variable by the thickness of blanket and how big or small said tent is...

My basic technique has always been (or in recent memory anyway) facing the amp toward the corner of a room, and use a couple "gobo's" (tips for making them www.homerecordingconnecti...story&id=50 ) on either side and leave the corner of the wall reflective. Also, DI the bass and put it in a separate track.

Tube, solid state or whatever doesn't matter, get a tone you like from the amp and play it at the level you like the sound of on tape.

Record the mic and DI on different tracks, when complete, mix the two to suit your wants.

Member
Since: Jul 23, 2004

Sep 12, 2009 01:09 pm

I do like a more trebly tone.. more akin to a piano tone. I am able to get this from my amp and as I described, from my recording technique.. my favoured tone is definitely more REM/Smiths/Rush.. lately listening to some old Cure.. and liking the depth of their bass however.
There is considerable shifting of good vs. bad tone when it comes to mic placement.. that is very true.
Perhaps since I am starting from a trebly point there is less boominess. I do like the corner trick for drums sometimes.. never tried it on bass cab.
My tent approach.. I just use regular winter time bed blankets.. not as thick as a quilt.. not wool either, draped over some chairs.. an amp facing at the other end can sound cool sometimes.. especially for lead guitar. The floor IS reflective I shouild say, oak.
My favoured mic from my modest locker for this a GrooveTubes GT55.. I run this into my ART TubeFire8 pre. I am a fairly aggressive player in my music, so I suppose there is the effect of increased force driving down the boomier frequencies. I break alot of strings.

Czar of Turd Polish
Member
Since: Jun 20, 2006

Sep 12, 2009 03:43 pm

Di for clean tones and string noise + Line6 with a bit of growl mixed to taste.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Sep 12, 2009 10:04 pm

Agree on the 2 tracks for bass. One live and one DI is always a good way to go. Here I go DI all the way. But I do have a huge selection of good bass amp modeling in software so no worries there.

On the JJ ECC83-s. While I do agree it breaks up sooner, most bass players don't want that. so that would not be a good choice for most players. I do agree as well they are a smooth tube. But they do lack a good deal in the harmonic content to be had by switching to something like a TungSol 12ax7 or the like. Much smoother break up and tons of harmonic grooviness.

Member
Since: Jul 23, 2004

Sep 13, 2009 07:30 am

Sounds like I live in Oppositeville! Well for me I feel that I have broken through to a better way of recording by not going direct anymore. I used to spend WAY too much time trying to iron out a bass tone from DI tracks.. almost like I was trying to shape or create a bass tone instead of mixing a good one.
As for tubes.. I hate to drag out the tubes vs SolidState debate, but for a good live amp tone that I would want to put to "tape".. I don't see using an emulator. If I want it to sound like a good live amp that's what I'll use.
Is it easier to plug into an interface and model? Way.. especially if I were dealing with clients and not just myself.

I've not tried the TungSol 12ax7 in my Paia preamp. I don't know how much difference there is between that and the Sovtek.. I don't recall the suffix on them (maybe WA) but they were too harsh for me.. too much higher end brashiness for my single coil Rickenbackers.. it would be interesting to retry them with my new "knock-around" bass.. active Ibanez ATK with triple humbucker.. hmmm.

Hey here is a cool page:

thetubestore.com/12ax7review.html#summary

reviews of common 12ax7 swappables.. though their review of the JAN Phillips 5751 sounds brighter than mine in my pre.


http://www.reverbnation.com/2ndg
Member
Since: Nov 27, 2007

Sep 13, 2009 07:39 am

I think having a good quality bass to start with helps.
but i also reckon using an outboard compressor while recording does a fair bit, at least then you can get the level set right.
i was finding doing the compression afterwards i was sacrificing decent level to get it not to clip.

i still havent totally nailed the whole comp thing going in, but its getting better, and the bass sound is getting much better too.

> > > Getting A Great Bass Recording - So Frustrating! Please Please Advise!

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