Tried Something New (for me) Saturday
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Posted on Apr 27, 2009 09:13 am
Doug Babbitt
Sound as good as you play
Member Since: Dec 23, 2008
The band that I work with did their first show after a 4 month break.
It was probably the last gig with the old/acoustic drummer, who is moving on to another band. They're starting to work with a guy who plays an electronic kit, but that's another story.
Anyway, they practiced with the acoustic drums on Tuesday and I realized I had forgotten how loud it could get. The drummer also said he had gotten a new kit with a bigger louder kick, so I could only imagine the levels I'd be dealing with.
The other pieces are 2 electric guitars, bass guitar, and keyboard, all with their own reasonably sized amps. We also have a very talented sax player who is a good friend and sits in when he can, including the other night. He plugs into the PA via a very nice wireless mic.
Up till now, I've been coaching everyone to turn down and let me bring them up into a mix. Even then, by the end of the night it was usually out of control loud, instrument faders off except maybe for a solo, and vocals getting lost in the noise. Of course, folks are asking me to turn up the vocals, but there's so much noise in the vocal mics that I know it'll only get worse.
The room we're playing is one half of a local bar .... maybe 60' long, 40' wide, with 20' tin ceilings, plaster walls, windows, and a hardwood floor. We were blessed to have a packed house most of the night, which really helped.
Rather than try to mix the amplified instruments, I simply left the musicians to use their own senses to figure out what was right. My impression is that this worked really well, with the crowd and the band sharing lots of energy.
Going in, I was still concerned about getting the vocals out there and I figured it might be worth trying some compression, so I inserted compressors on all 5 vocals and the sax.
At the start of the show, I was able to get pretty good vocal intelligibility while bypassing the compressors, but the levels crept up pretty fast and they started getting lost. Long story short, I slowly ramped up the ratios and edged the thresholds down very slowly, offsetting with a little output gain. By the end of the 1st set I had everyone at 4:1. I don't recall the threshold or gain settings, which I did by ear. I had the sax at the same settings.
Bottom-line ... rave reviews. We have a crowd of regular followers (i.e. family and friends with drinking problems) and "your best show ever" was the consensus. In that small noisy room, I think that trying to mix the amplified instruments was working against us. On the other hand, compressing the vocals allowed them to be heard clearly without risking ear bleeds at the peaks.
edit - the most important thing for me and the band was that nobody in the crowd said anything about the vocals sounding unusual .... just good.
Fun night.
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Apr 27, 2009 12:38 pm Doug, Good idea w/the comp to bring out the vocals. Let me throw out something I tried this Sunday, to help control my on-stage volumes.
Just a bit of history: two weeks ago, I had a really rough time at our gig (Sunday morning Church) because the lead guitarist was way too loud (on stage amp w/mic going to the PA). I didn't have a compressor to try what you tried (not that I would have thought of it anyway!), so I just did what I could to bring out the vocals and keys (read: turned it up). About 1/2 way through the service, I noticed a few folks getting up and moving to the rear, as it was really loud at the FOH.
This week (yesterday), I did the following: During rehearsal (about an hour before service started), I cranked up the monitor mix for the lead guitarist channel WAY too high (Floor wedges). I did this before he even showed up, so as soon as he plugged in and hit a chord it kinda startled him. Needless to say, he (and others on that same mix) wanted me to turn it down, but the good news is that he didn't reach down to his volume knob and make himself louder. Fortunately, he started low enough that when I brought the mon and PA mix into control the overall SPL was really good.
The result was a much lower SPL on stage, and a better mix for the congregation (nobody got up and moved during the music).
I don't like playing tricks on the musicians this way, but I've got to keep the SPL lower than what might be considered normal for a club.
Any other tips (or tricks) anyone would care to contribute?
Thanks.
timexoneproducerMember
Since: Dec 07, 2006
Apr 27, 2009 12:57 pm Sometimes fooling a musician can be for their own good. A few years back, my band at the time had a drummer that was very heavy handed and in smaller rooms, the cymbals were just too much. Our sound guy at the time used to throw up overheads and only run them into the drum monitor so it would be annoyingly loud to him causing him to play quieter. We didnt tell him at the time that he was doing that but sure enough, little by little his dynamics got better. his stamina lasted longer, the mix was easier on the ears and he ended up saving quite a bit of money on cymbals. he was glad we did it.
Apr 27, 2009 03:34 pm Yeah Doug. Both jimasonic and timexone have given you good pointers.
The problem with sound checks, is that the musicians ears are not use to the loud SPL of the show yet. You might say that their ears are still cold, and not warmed up.
This is where the volume wars start. As the night progresses, their ears become accustomed to the loud SPL. After that happens, things that seemed loud to begin with, no seem rather distant and low.
One way to have them settle in to a non adjustable volume. Is to do what jim did. It works, but can lead to tempers flaring.
One thing that I have done in the past, was to wait until the band was there, and just about to start making noise. That's when I jumped up on stage. I told them that I thought I was having an issue with the wedges. And could they bear with me a few moments while I checked.
I then started a CD that I played in the house and wedges. At a respectable level.
Nothing too high. Just loud enough for their ears to get accustomed to hearing what show volume would be close to.
After two or three songs, their ears adjusted to hearing loud volumes. And I was able to do sound check at the levels that would stay unchanged for the rest of the evening.
Another way of preventing the volume wars, is to run the EQ for the wedge a little bright. leaving 2.5k and 4k to where they don't feed back. But still bright enough that you can hear a difference.
What this does is to give a little cut through power to the wedge. Your ears really don't adjust to a bright sound. And as the night progresses, they are still able to hear themselves very well.
Not every person on your stage will take having their mix bright. But, it is something that does help.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Apr 27, 2009 06:20 pm Sometimes cheating a bit is the only way. Over the years I worked with too many like that live and it becomes a pain. Not only for the others on stage, but the FOH guys suffer the most as blame usually heads their way.
Having sat in that seat as well I'm with Rob on making the mon mix a bit brighter to cut through, and playing a few tunes through the system to get their ears used to near show levels.
One thing I found, even though it often times got things heated was simply telling the offending party their rig and its volume was the problem. Many times they would claim that this level was were their tone came from In turn I would simply state that it was on them then to find a workable solution that would bring the level of their rig down.
Doug BabbittSound as good as you playMember
Since: Dec 23, 2008
Apr 28, 2009 09:28 am Lots of good tips to file away for future use, when necessary. Thanks.
As far as this particular band is concerned, I'm actually very impressed with the progress that they've made as musicians in the 9 months or so I've worked with them. In a tough room, they played a nice tight show, at appropriate levels, and left space for me to place the vocals.
The drummer was hitting heavy as usual and his ride cymbal felt like it was piercing my brain stem, but that was probably his last show. The new guy on e-drums was at rehearsal last night and was spot-on from the first song.
As for Saturday, at the end of the night the venue owner kicked us some extra cash and asked when we can come back. Definately a success.
monmixrIf 50hz 60 will kill ya.Member
Since: Jan 08, 2009
Apr 28, 2009 04:57 pm I dont look at that as "cheating" or "Tricking" the band. If a guitar is too loud, the simple fact is he doesnt have an ear in his azz. Ill kill a guitarest with monitors and when he askes if it can be brought down Ill say "yea, turn down the amp and itll come down in the monitor." The bottom line is, as the FOH mixer, your there for the FOH. I made a guy who insisted he couldnt turn down his amp move it into another room once. Stand your ground.
Doug BabbittSound as good as you playMember
Since: Dec 23, 2008
Apr 28, 2009 06:20 pm As a hobbyist, I'm likely to walk away if someone doesn't care about adapting their behavior to improve the FOH sound. The leader of the band I've worked with so far is my brother-in-law and the rest of the guys are now friends. Everyone genuinely wants to get better, so making a little progress each time out is enough to make us all happy.
I'm talking to 3 other local bands about doing their sound and at least one of each group is a friend. Since money is secondary, I have the luxury of talking straight to people about what they need to do and walking away if they can't handle it.
It also helps when the musicians know that I'm only there because I want to make them sound better and am willing to accept criticism and advice. If the keyboard player's girlfriend thinks he's not turned up enough, I want to hear about and see what can be done.
monmixrIf 50hz 60 will kill ya.Member
Since: Jan 08, 2009
Apr 28, 2009 09:37 pm Thank you for the insight Doug. Being a professional Engineer of 27 years and Production company owner, I sometimes forget the scope of this site.
Apr 28, 2009 09:42 pm Hey monmixr, are you taking phone calls yet?
monmixrIf 50hz 60 will kill ya.Member
Since: Jan 08, 2009
Apr 29, 2009 12:40 am lol yup. Give me a call tomorrow, Ill be in the shop. I wanted to talk to you about floodlight anyway.
