Metal Project Starting - Need Advice
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Posted on Feb 04, 2009 12:40 pm
RockWood610
John
Member Since: May 06, 2007
Hey guys.
Based on many replies and help from here on other projects, I was hoping to get some really good help with my next project, as it is my own band's first demo.
We have started tracking drums already. We are using a live kit with acoustic Roland triggers through an Alesis DM5 modual. The mod is sending midi info to my Sony Acid 7 DAWS and we are using superior drummer 2.0 with the EZ Drummer 'Drumkit from hell' expansion pack.
For bass/guitars/and possible vocals, we have Line6's UX2 toneport with GearBox. We also have the gearbox plugin.
The drums are coming pretty easy with everything being direct with midi, and I won't need much help with them until mix down time.
I guess my first series of questions would be for the guitar/bass tracks.
For those of you who may not be familure with it, Gearbox is an amp simulation setup from Line 6 that comes with thier toneport models. My guitar player has picked out 4 tones he will be using. We have 2 tunings we use. Dropped C and A. Each song will have at least 2 guitar tracks with 2 seperate tones panned to each side to spread the mix out a bit with him playing each track slightly different from the other.
With gearbox, they have pedals, mods, and compressors built right into the guitar, vocals and bass chains. Should we use the compression while tracking on these? Or should that be done during mixdown? I know some people like using compression on bass to fatten it up a bit, but should we do pre or post compression?
I'm slowly learning about the ins and outs of compression, so please help me out here if I should do something differently.
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Feb 04, 2009 01:30 pm POST! The only reason you should use compression is to get something that fluctuates in volume enough to disturb a mix placement. NEVER use it for gain setting. Just adjust your gain so that it compensates for the output of the instrument. And generally, you don't compress guitars. Especially, with heavy distortion.
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Feb 04, 2009 02:33 pm Compression, in the setting of gearbox, would be used as an effect, like a stomp-box. Good for adding sensitivity to your guitar without adding more distortion. Also good for adding sustain. But that's really not so useful on heavy distorted guitars since they're already very compressed by nature.
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Feb 04, 2009 02:35 pm what Cynic said makes sense, but there is also the tracking analog part of things.
If you have an analog compressor, then you can use one before your signal gets to the converters. This will help get fatter signal, but also help to keep the signal from clipping into the interface. This would be digital clipping, which is very bad.
But, once you track using compression, you can't undo it.
Using 24bit recording, you can track down under -10db without any problem, so this part isn't really as valid as it used to be. When using tape, you want it as hot as possible, so using a compressor before tape is a good thing. But with 24bit digital, don't worry about it.
And yes, distorted guitars would suffer from compression, I would think. They are probably already pretty uniform in volume. Any more and it'd become brick-style waveform. I'd think that if someone didn't play dist gtr very uniformly, then re-track it.
Feb 04, 2009 02:36 pm Thanks for the replies guys.
The gearbox setup has compressors as 'stomp boxes' on the screen, and usualy they are turned on. Each one has a Gain of 0 and a Threshold of 30 out of 100. I played around with it, and it doesn't appear to do anything to the signal of the guitars. Should we just turn the compressors off for tracking then?
It is the same situation for vocals as well. Gearbox has pre set preamp settings and each one has the same compressor settings of 0 gain and 30 threshold. It seems that with this default settings, my vocal volume stays at an even level witch for me during my screams and 'grunts' I guess you could call them is very important to keep a decent feel while tracking. If I keep the compressor on during vocals, will this cause issues later on?
Feb 04, 2009 02:39 pm Just for an add on here, we are recording at 24 bit and 48k. We are going right from the guitars to the UX2 Toneport interface.
Same as vocals. Right from the vocal mic into the UX2 with phantom power being built right into the unit.
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Feb 04, 2009 02:43 pm If you can track them, and you're happy, then I wouldn't worry about it.
You may want to try different compressors, after the fact, but it doesn't sound like it.
I'd say that if you're happy with the sound, use it. Don't spend too much time on quibbles =).
You can still apply compressors later, though I'd be sparse, so as not to get into the pumping thing. Though that's applicable always, I'd think.
Feb 04, 2009 02:50 pm True, I do have a nasty habbit of over thinking sometimes... especialy on my own projects.
Thanks for the replies. If interested, here is a small sample of everything we tracked for a test run a couple of months ago. This isn't mixed or anything, just a good reference of what everything sounds like:
www.buttonlock.net/studio/audio/ltstest.mp3
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Feb 04, 2009 05:32 pm i use compression on guitars after recording to tame the swing on heavy mutes. i like my mic pretty close even if the amp is cranked.
i used to put on way too much at first. now i just put on just a tad to bring it together and so the vol doesnt jump around too much.
If ya put too much on it just kills the life in it completely.
its like anything really, you only do to the mix what needs doing, and not because you think you are supposed to.
being an amp simulator i wouldnt think compression would be an issue at all, and definatley wouldnt worry about it going in.
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Feb 04, 2009 05:36 pm oh yeah, the tunes sounds sweet man.
guitars sound fine. i never heard the line 6 before. impressed.
Feb 04, 2009 09:20 pm Ok fellas, I got some ROUGHS here. These are drums and guitars only. I didn't post the entire songs, but a good long sample of each.
The guitar tracks are up a bit louder because my guitar player is getting these same exact files and he wants to hear his tracks up a little bit for reference. Song titles are followed by thier links:
'Demo Intro'
www.buttonlock.net/studio/ltsamps/intro.mp3
'D.R.E.A.M.'
www.buttonlock.net/studio/ltsamps/dream.mp3
'Die Alone'
www.buttonlock.net/studio/ltsamps/diealone.mp3
Overall, how do the levels sound on the guitars? And is there anything in the drums (besides the snare) that is sticking out?
If your not familure with Supirior Drummer 2.0, there is a complete mixer inside the plugin for the drums. Each drum mic (witch are already gated) has sections to add EQ, compressors, ect, and then there are 2 ambiance type mics (or room mics) and of course the overhead mic(s).
I am having a major issue with the snare drum peaking the drum master bus. I am assuming some compression will fix this issue, as if I turn it down to where it stopspeaking, you can't really hear it. I just got to studie up on the compression features and what they all do/mean. But over all, hows this coming along in your opinions?
Thanks in advance.
Feb 05, 2009 01:19 am Your kick is too boomy. Try compressing it a bit in SD2. (I have it and use the internal comp. just fine.) And turn down the sub mic on the kick too. Your snare is missing some body on it, for my taste but it's not bad.
The guitars sound too digital and processed. Now, I know you are using a Line 6 port but see if you can get a hold of a PSP Vintage warmer or something to "warm" them up.
Feb 05, 2009 09:22 am I don't have any PSP plugins, but I have a lot of Waves plugins. Do they make anything that would do this?
I'm not a guitar player by far, so I'm not really noticing the digital processed of them. So I'm not even really sure what they would call for to fix them up a bit.
The kick drum mic is pushed a little higher at the moment so my drummer can hear his double kicks. Does the volume need down or does it actualy need compressed? We set the volicity to 127 so everytime he hit the kick drum it was the same force no matter what.
Feb 05, 2009 12:14 pm Well, that's bad. Haha. The velocity needs to differ some and knowing how many samples that SD2 has at that velocity, it will just sound more robotic than anything. Back the velocity down some. And if your drummer wants to be able to "hear" his kick, boost the highs some to catch the attack the beater.
I don't understand why he wouldn't be able to hear it though.
Feb 05, 2009 12:36 pm Deleted By RockWood610
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Feb 05, 2009 12:48 pm Definitely vary it. Put accents in like a real drummer would. Maybe even have the drummer play some of these beats, or just tap them out if you don't have a kit handy. Pay attention to the way people put accents when they play the drums. See if you can apply some of the same patterns of accents to your MIDI track.
The best thing would be to program your drums using a velocity sensitive MIDI controller of some sort. I've been really impressed with what I can achieve with a relatively cheap MIDI controller keyboard.
Feb 05, 2009 12:54 pm Well all in all, these tracks I up loaded where just quick samples with no real mix job on them. I just wanted an over all opinion on how it was coming along as all, so the kick drum loudness will be fixed up.
I don't think all of the kick beats where at 127 velocity, but it was somewhere near that. My drummer is overall happy with it so I don't want to tamper with it to much. But I'll look into it somewhat.
Tadpui, what are you opinions on the guitar tracks. Do they sound to processed and not natural enough? There isn't any verb or anything on them, and I thoguht maybe that would help them a little bit... but my guitar player doesn't think they sound bad at all, and hes what I am concerned with for the most part.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Feb 05, 2009 04:18 pm I haven't listened yet, but I usually keep the compressor on if its in the effect chain in GeaerBox. I may try a different choice but they usually have that tweaked fairly well.
And don't be afraid to wip up your own patches with it.
I'll be back with more after I listen to some of it.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Feb 05, 2009 08:17 pm OK, not sure what others were listening on, but the kick is really not boomy at all. In fact it was kind of masked by the guitars listening here. I can hear the beater attack fairly well, though it could be just a hint more. I like the punch the kick had myself. And as for the velocity, there is variance there in the feel of it. Its small most times but it is there for sure. I'll get a better listen tomorrow a bit louder.
On the digital sound. If your using un-tweaked presets let me know exactly which ones your using. I have all the add on packs if your using any of those.
A couple hints though. First thing I do when I start with factory presets is turn down the presence. Then I move the mic out a bit or add AIR as they don't usually have any AIR on most of the patches. That will give the patch a little space. Also, it sounds like you are using some scooped mid patches.
Let me know what guitar/pickups and the patches used on each tone and guitar for sure though.
Also, did you pan the different guitar tracks fully left and right or just say 25% each? It sounds like they are panned pretty far out. That might be accentuating the digital sound as well.
And yes, these are just rough tracks so no panicking yet. :-)
Feb 06, 2009 01:07 am Thanks as always for the reply Noize. I sent you an e-mail with the Gearbox tones we used attached in it. Let me know what you think when you get 'em. Thanks!
Feb 06, 2009 02:20 am Hey what's up I just took a listen and thought most of it sounds pretty good. I thought on Die Alone the low mids of the snare could come out more and a little more low on the kick.
Otherwise all you gotta do now is Plug into a nice tube amp like a mesa, invest in a large condenser mic and record those guitar tracks!!
Feb 06, 2009 04:00 am Hey Kevin. Thanks for the input.
I have the same settings on all the drums for each song. So is it just Die alone you are suggesting on the snare?
As far as the kick goes, I know there is some work on it to do. But not as much as others have suggested. We're pretty happy with it for the most part.
I wish we had a mesa to record with, but we are using direct Line 6 software for amp modeling. I maybe buying the PSP Vimtage Warmer, and hopefuly with the help of Noize, I can get the guitars warmed up a bit.
Thanks again for the reply! Please keep the help coming. This is going to be released at all our shows, all over online, ect and we want the best out of what we have here.
Feb 06, 2009 03:57 pm You won't be disappointed with the VW!
I love that damn thing! Ha.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Feb 06, 2009 08:08 pm Got the email. I'll be looking at the patches later tonight or tomorrow. I'll plug em in and try em out live here and see were your settings are at.
Feb 07, 2009 03:24 am Got your e-mail noize. Tanks again. Looking forward to your reply.
