How'd I get myself into this mess (the world of live sound)?
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Posted on Dec 24, 2008 04:02 pm
Doug Babbitt
Sound as good as you play
Member Since: Dec 23, 2008
Well, I joined this forum yesterday and got the warm reception I expected after having read many of the threads. At the risk of boring you all, I thought a brief history of my introduction to live sound would help me find my proper place here.
It all started the week after Christmas last year. My 12-year old son had gotten some gifts of cash for Christmas and decided that he wanted to buy a cheap usb mixer that he came across on the web. He's a gifted musician, classically trained on double bass and self-taught on e-guitar and drums, and he also films and edits videos of his friends skateboarding and snowboarding. In any case, his impulse to mix music was not out of character.
Unable to resist my conservative dad-like instincts, I asked him to be patient while I did some research to make sure he would be buying something that he would be happy with. To make a long story short, I ended up snagging a well regarded hard drive recording mixer on eBay and offered to pick up the significant price difference between the unit he originally wanted and the unit we now owned. Anyone with kids knows the next part .... he had since lost interest and had other things in mind for his cash.
Flash forward a month and I'm at a party in a friend's home and see that he has a PA system and some instruments in his rec. room. The friend tells me about his band, I tell him about the recorder, he says he's been looking to buy the very model I have, and I sell it to him for the same low price that I paid for it.
If only I had the sense to walk away at that point .... but it was not to be.
With some cash burning a hole in my pocket, I start scanning the web for a new piece of gear. After all, my 12-year old or his 14-year old brother (trained violist, but not quite as gifted) might have a change of heart.
By now my thinking had evolved to include not only recording but live sound (what the heck, right?). After a fair amount of research, the Phonic Helix Board 24 MKII Firewire became the object of my desire and when a great deal came along I made it the first piece of my sound system.
Meanwhile, my brother-in-law who has been playing on and off in his garage with a revolving cast of characters for 20 years finally assembled a group of musicians with the chops to play paid bar gigs. Along with a bunch of other family and friends, my wife and I went to all of their shows this past summer and finally hired them to do an end of summer bash in our backyard.
Having seen all of their shows and many of their rehearsals, I knew 2 things. First, they were excellent musicians who worked well both as soloists and as an ensemble. Second, their audience usually couldn't hear how good they were. At first, my brother in law ran the sound from the stage. Knowing the limitations of that approach, he sometimes paid someone to do sound, but the result wasn't much better.
Part of the deal for the gig at my house, in addition to free beer and steaks for the band, was that I would run the vocals through my board and a pair of Mackie SRM350s I had picked up along the way.
Long story short .... everyone agreed that they sounded better than ever and I was their sound guy until further notice.
More later if you can take it.
Good tidings to you all!
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Dec 24, 2008 04:12 pm Yup, they are always dragging you back in.
No, the sound was awesome! No, please, you have to be at the next show! Yeah I know that it's 3 states away, and you have to go to work the next morning. But you just have to be there!
That's how it starts. Next thing you know, they are playing bigger venues. And you have been just looking for an excuse to buy that next set of speakers anyway.....
Doug BabbittSound as good as you playMember
Since: Dec 23, 2008
Dec 24, 2008 10:53 pm OK - so here we are 3 months and maybe 10 shows later.
I'm still doing sound for the brother in law's band and making (I think) incremental progress every time out. We've been rotating through 3 different small (bar/pub/club) venues, each with its own peculiarities. My gear inventory has grown substantially and I've tried to encourage the band to take advantage of the possibilities
Having started with the Mackie SRM350s, I picked up a pair of SWA1501 subs when the price was right. For the time being I'm running all of the instruments (2 guitar cabs mic'd with e609, bass DI, keys DI and kick mic'd with pg52) through the 1501s, using the internal crossover to the 350s. Vocals are running separately through a pair of SRM450s. We're very happy with the sound of the speakers and there's so much headroom that we shouldn't need any more speakers or amps for awhile.
If I had to identify a theme for each of our first 3 months, they would be as follows:
Month 1 - Turn down your guitar/bass/keyboard amps so that they don't overpower the vocals.
Month 2 - Turn down your guitar/bass/keyboard amps so that I have room to fit them into the mix through the PA.
Month 3 - Now that you've got your amps under control in the first set, please resist the temptation to turn them up in the second and third sets.
As time goes by, they are trusting me more and more with the FOH sound and just focusing on making good music amongst themselves on-stage. I'm constantly soliciting feedback from venue owners, managers, friends of the band etc. during shows, so the musicians don't get blindsided about bad sound between sets or after the show.
In addition to previously mentioned gear, for the past few gigs I've been running the instrument and vocal signals through their own 31 band GEQs and trying to carve out subtle pockets in the instruments where the vocals can sit. I'm not 100% sure of the benefit, but I'm sure it hasn't hurt anything.
In the next show I'm going to try a touch of compression on the vocals in an attempt to give them a slightly better position in the mix (ratio advice welcome). If that doesn't lead to catastrophe, then I'll experiment with compressing the instruments. Both of the guitar players and the keyboard player do some nice solos, but they are often missed by the audience because they don't always jump out in front of the rest of the mix when they should.
Again, my apologies for rambling. Happy to get to know you all.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Dec 25, 2008 11:54 pm Ramble on, its what this place is about.
Month 1, 2 and 3 are all too familiar. That is the studio life at times as well. Trying to convince a young guitarist that turning the distortion down will really help the recorded sound.
As for getting the solo's out front more. I would say that is simply making certain you have a bit of headroom left to simply bring the channel fader up to boost the level a bit for the instruments solo and your good to go.
The easier alternative is of course getting the the guitarist to use a boost type pedal that will give only a bit of gain boost without altering the guitar's tone. On keys that is a bit harder, unless they have a volume pedal on their keys.
Dec 26, 2008 12:29 am It sound to that your on your way to be like the rest of us. =) Gear sluts!!!!
Not that there is anything wrong with that.... Unless you ask your wife.
And it seems that you are learning, like most of us, the good ol' fashion way. In the trenches of the clubs and bars. But, working in the same room over and over again, giving you a chance to try, or learn something new, is the best way to cut your teeth.
There is one thing that I would like to see you try. Try to just put the 31 band EQ across the entire mix. Instead of the vocals. Putting an EQ and a group send in a mix, adds a lot of noise. It's putting 4 op amps in between your mix, before leaving the desk. And each time you run through a op amp, it raises the signal to noise ratio a little more.
A compressor will help in your mix. But, not for making it pop the way you want. In live sound, it's mainly used for the limiting function. And by changing the attack and release time, it will change the EQ in your mix. Which is fine. I believe that you should use one. Get use to what it does to your sound when you put on in-line with an instrument. For the first time use, I would say 3.5:1 is a good starting place for vocals in a live mix. If you need a detailed explanation on compressors, a lot of us here can do that for you.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Dec 26, 2008 01:01 am Nicely stated Rob. I wasn't going to go there, but do agree completely. I honestly have held off and getting only what I truly would use. The last few months though having the youngest (16) get involved with guitar and in the studio more has caused a large amount of cash to simply fall out of my pocket lately. :-)
But its all for a good cause.
Doug BabbittSound as good as you playMember
Since: Dec 23, 2008
Dec 26, 2008 02:29 pm Yep, I came to the right place.
Let me explain the signal paths that I'm using and expand on what I'm thinking with EQ and compression.
Vocals are all sent to the main l/r bus and all are panned full right. The compressor is inserted at the main right output, to the GEQ, to one SRM450 and through to the other SRM450.
Instruments are all sent to the main l/r bus and all are panned full left. I elected not to insert a compressor here, believing that the kick drum and/or bass would likely end up driving the compression and generally messing things up. So the instrument signal goes through the main left output, to its own GEQ, to one swa1501, through to the other swa1501, and out the 120Hz high pass of each sub to the SRM350s.
My objective with separate GEQs on instruments and vocals is first to make just a bit of room in the instrument mix for the key vocal frequencies to sit. Second, on the vocal channel, I'm hoping that I can reduce some of the instrument noise that bleeds into the vocal mics by selectively reducing certain frequency ranges. I'm thinking that the lower ranges are the worst offenders and cutting them judiciously won't hurt the vocal mix.
My objectives with compressing the vocals are to tamp down the occassional dynamic peaks that a couple of the guys emit on occassion and that can be painfully loud to the listener. I'd also like to narrow the dynamic range enough so that I can get the bulk of the vocal mix loud enough to be heard without the loudest portions getting out of hand.
As our regular followers get accustomed to better sound, they are raising their expectations. The most common request recently has been to turn up the vocals so that they can hear them even better. Meanwhile, my ears tell me that any more boost in the vocals is going to be unpleasant due to the dynamic peaks. In contrast with our earliest shows, it's no longer a problem with excessive stage volume or a too loud instrument mix. I know some lack of intelligibility comes from room reverb, but I'm hoping I can improve it to some degree.
The guys are good about finding their place in the vocal mix, so that lead and backing are at appropriate levels. Based on what I've read about compressing group vocals, this is important because the loudest voice drives the compression of all voices. I don't recall needing to turn someone down when they were backing, so I'm not too worried about someone squashing the lead.
Thanks a million. It's great to be here.
Dec 26, 2008 05:35 pm Wow, that's an advance way of doing things. It's not often that you see see someone running a separate mix for the vocals. Did you take a page from Dave Rat?
Rat sound did this for the Red Hot Chillie Peppers. One line array was for the instruments, and the other was just for the vocals. The way he routed the signal out, was to use a matrix. But, the way you are doing it is fine.
Don't worry to much about the mics bleeding into your vocal mix. It's live. That is always going to happen. This is why stage mics have such a bass proximity effect. They will only pick up low end signals at an inch away from the mic. So, that in it's self helps. Plus the parametric EQ on you board will help do the rest. By inserting your EQ only on the right side is a go way to accomplish what your looking for as well. Just do not concentrate your efforts on removing the other instruments from the vocals. Concentrate on just getting the vocals clean.
When you start to move into larger gear, I would say to stop doing this. But for what you have right now, It's probable the best thing that you can do.
When you get into the larger venues, doing a separate vocal PA will give you phasing and time alignment issues. And not to mention coverage area. You maybe already experiencing the coverage issue now. That is, is you have your speakers side by side. Having them one above the other will help to eliminate some of the coverage problems. But, then it opens the door to time alignment.
Doug BabbittSound as good as you playMember
Since: Dec 23, 2008
Dec 26, 2008 07:45 pm I've been around long enough to know that "advanced" is usually not the same as "best." An effort at simplification may be in order.
The reason for the 2 mixes is the fact that my brother-in-law has become obsessed with the audience hearing crisp clean vocals. That's what our audience likes (now that I've let them hear it), so that's what we're going to provide first and foremost. The guys aren't trained, but their voices really work well together, so we agree on what's important, even if I think a single mix would be equally clean.
The BIL is the driving force behind the band, throws down some outrageous improvised guitar solos and has a great sense of what everyone else is doing. He can be a tyrant when someone isn't getting it done, but he was the first to take my advice to get an angled amp stand, point it across the stage and at his head, and turn it down.
Speaking of stage sound, nobody will be surprised to hear that monitors have been an issue. I nearly blew a gasket after 2 or 3 shows when the BIL mentioned that the band was unhappy with the monitors - in fact that they could hear almost nothing. I guess the problem was so obvious to them that they assumed I knew about it and was doing the best I could. I turned up the amp (Phonic DMX1501 running a single vocal mix through 2 parallel channels to a pair of Behringer 215s and a couple of Sonic wedges) at the next show and they thought they were in heaven. Since then, "tell me what you need" comes out of my mouth several times during every gig.
At our last show 2 of the guys tried Nady PM100 personal monitors on mic stands and they worked so well that we're getting them for everyone.
The drummer, who is the most professional of the group, has asked me to run a separate monitor mix because he can't see or hear the guitars. He can keep track of the keys by sight, but the guitarists aren't good about facing him when needed. I have a second pre-fader aux, so I'll run that to him and maybe the guy on keys through the monitor amp.
Other bits: I have compressor/gate/limiters inserted on bass guitar and kick and plan on some careful experimentation as time allows. Also GEQ on monitors.
Also, there's another band working the same circuit as us. As with my current guys, they have some talent, but are trying to do their own sound from the stage and not sounding like they should in FOH, plus repeated (and easily solved) feedback problems. I've told the BIL that I may talk to them about doing a tryout gig to see if it would be worth it for them to pay me. They have some people who follow them and who they would trust as far as evaluating any improvements I could make.
Also, a friend who has played in bands and also run sound is launching a new band next year. He wants me to think about working with them as well.
So there's the other problem .... a wife, kids growing up fast, full-time day job, etc. 1 or 2 gigs per week is probably all I can manage, so that means just one client band. That probably means sticking with whatever path my brother-in-law takes, which makes sense given that I got into sound because I knew he was good and wanted other people to know it too. Did I mention he's my best friend, my wife's twin, that we got married in a double wedding, vacation together and have dinner together every Sunday?
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Dec 26, 2008 09:17 pm Nice to have the family involvement then for sure. Sounds like he does appreciate you and vice verse though so that is a good thing.
Doug BabbittSound as good as you playMember
Since: Dec 23, 2008
Dec 27, 2008 04:53 pm You've got me thinking about the way that I'm using my speakers and wondering if splitting vocals and instruments may actually be hurting our sound. My concern is that I've come up with an advanced configuration, without the knowledge or experience to do it properly (i.e. dealing with phase, time and other unintended consequences).
We can run the full mix through one or two subs and either pair of mains without coming near the limits of headroom in any of our usual venues, so using 6 speakers is not necessary. Given the above, would anyone question the wisdom of running a full mix to main l/r, high-passed through the respective subs to a pair of mains?
How about stacking the 350s on the 450s and using an external crossover to divide the mid and upper loads?
This stuff makes my brain hurt (so good).
Dec 27, 2008 05:37 pm I'm curious, opposing the hard left and hard right to separate the vocal and instruments (which is a great workaround for a lack of subs) do you have sub outputs? If you do, further spearating drums from strings is a good bet., but, having not read through this whole thread that may have already been covered.
All in all, no, separating, or groups instruments is not a bad thing.
Dec 27, 2008 06:42 pm High passing the subs is OK. An external crossover is better for subs.
With an external crossover, you can control the slope of the filter much better. And you can go deeper, about -24 dB. Which will tighten up the sub sound for you.
As for the 350's and 450's, I thought they were self powered? If they are, the crossover is already built into the box. Non-adjustable I'm afraid. So, you would only need a 2 way crossover. Setting the crossover at 120 hz is a good starting place for subs.
As for the separate vocal mix, it's not a bad thing for the size that your at right now. I think if you increased the size of your rig, then I think it may be an issue. But, yes. Time alignment is a big part of the total EQ of your rig. If you find that there is a frequency that just will not go away, it can be caused by time alignment.
Time vs. frequency is one of the biggest parts of sound engineering for live and recording. And will effect phase as well. This is why when you out your boxes up, the backs of the boxes should always be touching. The front can be splayed for coverage. But, then you should splay them for their horn pattern. Having around 15 - 20 degrees of overlap.
monmixrIf 50hz 60 will kill ya.Member
Since: Jan 08, 2009
Jan 08, 2009 06:37 pm Doug, what are you using for vocal mics? jus wondering...Im almost afraid to jump into this thread, but curious non the less.
Doug BabbittSound as good as you playMember
Since: Dec 23, 2008
Jan 08, 2009 09:36 pm No problem. That's a very good question.
We're using a mix of vocal mics, which we know is a problem.
My brother-in-law, basically the boss, is using an SM58. The others have Behringer "clones" of the SM58. He is pushing the rest of them very hard to get SM58s.
I have been looking at vocal mics for months and eventually expect to purchase at least 5, so that I can provide them as necessary to whomever I work for. So far, the SM58 seems to be the best choice for an all around live vocal mic. Any other suggestions?
I do have 2 PG48s for my kids and their friends. I figure they'll destroy them eventually, so I decided not to spend too much. If they get serious, then they can use the "big boy" mics.
monmixrIf 50hz 60 will kill ya.Member
Since: Jan 08, 2009
Jan 08, 2009 09:47 pm nope, the 58 is probably best. you had mentioned picking up band in your vocal mics and I was wondering if you were using beta 58s as they will do that. I would use a 58 in your situation, I use them quite a bit in my situation lol. Ill tell you a little secret. You can get any bashed up, broken 58s, send them to shure for a "rebuild" ( 50.00) and they send you a new one.
