"Reading Music"
Home > Home Recording Forum > Talkin' Smack > "Reading Music"
Posted on Oct 20, 2008 01:14 am
Mr.McSinister
Member Since: Sep 19, 2008
A bit of a strange question:
Does anybody know of a free online source where I can learn how to read music?
I've been learning basic guitar for several months now, and I'd like to start practising with greater frequency and diversity.
[ Back to Top ]
Oct 20, 2008 06:27 am reading music for guitar, like on a staff? good luck with that. i'd never attempt it unless i'd been raised that way. i know how to read music for piano, but if i'm right (i may not be) if you're playing guitar, you have 'choices' when you see a standardized note on the staff. as far as i know, (again: might be wrong!) you have to pick where on the neck you want to play a given note, because unlike tab, there are no instructions with that for music written on the staff. how could there be?
i guess you'd be forced to really learn the fretboard. that's one clear benefit. but is it the best system for guitar? i've never known. it's enough for me to know it on piano where things really are standardized and perfect. then you can play guitar on a piano in your mind.
Oct 20, 2008 06:29 am but maybe buy the following book on amazon. maybe you can get it used for a dollar forty five
www.amazon.com/Musicians-...c/dp/0879305703
i don't think it's for guitar, but it'll show what's what anyway. i read it once as a refresher and thought that probably it'd be the book i'd use if i decided to really improve.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Oct 20, 2008 10:28 pm Yep, transposing staff note to guitar can get to be a pain. It is all the same, but a knowledge of the staff to begin with is paramount to success.
Oct 21, 2008 01:21 am Thanks guys.
The thing that I've found about learning guitar is that you seem to come across a surprising amount of instructive books and such that use "staff". A good example is a Mel Bay book I bought with my guitar. The attitude seemed to be, "well, now that you know how to play every other instrument, and have years of experience in music: Here's an oversimplified lesson on the guitar".
I'm using eMedia right now (which uses a much friendlier interface), and it's a Godsend, but I think that I had better start learning music for future "expansion".
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Oct 21, 2008 02:29 am Oh hell, don't bother. Nobody reads music any longer. It is counter productive to creativity. Just let your nogen go wild and make new and different noises. Smoke dope and "Rock out". Those wierd little dots on paper can't possibly do anything for anybody. Hell ya can't eat em. It just ain't cool to walk around with written music. Use Tab, it's a lot more concentrated than pot. As far as that goes, you don't need any pitch whatsoever. Just rap! Now that's cool! Ya don't need instruments for that even.
Forget it. Passe' Ancient History.
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Oct 21, 2008 03:31 am Oh Walt, "Secrectary of Insight"
you rock my friend!
i agree.
Oct 21, 2008 06:15 am haha 'hell ya can't eat em'
learning to read real music for guitar seems like a waste of time to me. maybe i don't understand it, but it seems like a real ***** to me.
on piano it's great and it's worth it. it shows you things. but guitar is just not set up for theory. if you want to know theory and how to read music, you should learn piano. stick to tab for guitar.
despite walt's comments, you won't lose your creativity. but hell, you just might if you try to do it with guitar.
cruxTypo SzarMember
Since: Jul 04, 2002
Oct 21, 2008 09:03 am I realize ur all being sarcastic, but i mean learning to read music is useful (even though i barely know how), it can add to creativity because once u learn how to read music, u can grasp much more complicated concepts of music writing and do them in a more concrete way. Its like, if u know the rules, then u can find better ways to break them.
Its like drummers who just play by feel (which is me, so no offense to anyone) can do a bunch, but when u get drummers who know all the time signatures and the grooves, they can really throw that stuff together and make cool newer stuff.
And for notes not really helping with guitar becoz of positioning... well the notes on different parts of the guitar neck r still the same, and in the same Octave, i mean C in position I and V r still the same C. U dont even have to think about position if ur reading notes for guitar, its just watever position u can move around with the best.
my 2 cents
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Oct 21, 2008 01:56 pm Well, I'll just toss in another bit.
Mr. McS, my son is also learning guitar. And the book he is using as well is based on both actually. Reading the staff as well as giving a tiny brief on tab, which comes more in the second book. For him, it is a matter of never having read music at all. So learning to play reading the staff will be easier for him. It also does use the standard guitar chord chart so it is note completely about staff reading.
He find it amusing to see me transpose it from piano to guitar. And for him, practice sessions are played about 2 octaves down from were it would be on the piano.
Oct 21, 2008 02:38 pm Reading music is useful...I am not very good at it personally, and yes, notes can be played in different positions of the neck, but still, it's the same note...I wish I knew how to read better, but the way I play it's never mattered to much...I look at the chord structure and kinda free-wheel it from there...
BleakA small pie will soon be eatenMember
Since: Aug 26, 2004
Oct 21, 2008 07:44 pm Every good boy deserves fruit!
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Oct 21, 2008 07:54 pm Hey Bleak, thats the tuning for my 5 string.
OK, maybe not.
olddogMember
Since: Jul 02, 2003
Oct 21, 2008 09:23 pm I think learning to read music is time well spent, it's not a neccessity but certainly comes in useful and if one wants to learn classical guitar it becomes even more important. To me learning to read music wasn't hard, it was putting into practice that was/is the pita. :D
Dan
Oct 21, 2008 09:45 pm Quote:
And for notes not really helping with guitar becoz of positioning... well the notes on different parts of the guitar neck r still the same, and in the same Octave, i mean C in position I and V r still the same C. U dont even have to think about position if ur reading notes for guitar, its just watever position u can move around with the best.
i dunno. i don't know too much about it on guitar really. it just seems like reading off the staff on guitar would be much harder than on piano and i'm unclear what the benefit would be.
i'm a big supporter of music theory, but i've never managed to actually memorize the notes on the fretboard because of the tuning scheme and the absence of clear markers like black keys.
J-botByte-MixerMember
Since: Dec 04, 2007
Oct 22, 2008 10:58 am Well, conceptually, I'd have to think it would be similar to what a violinist/other string player would have to deal with. (and they don't even get the benefits of frets hah!) Now, I don't play violin, but I know they use different positions on the fretboard. 1st 2nd 3rd 4th and so on.
I'm thinking for reading music/classical guitar and the like, it would be the same. So which note on which string would kinda depend on which position you're in as you play. In practice it's probably not quite right, but I'd think it would be similar.
I don't think you'd need to memorize the notes on the fretboard except maybe the root of the scale, just know how the scales work, and maybe memorize the positions, and then put it together.
-J
Oct 22, 2008 07:19 pm But what if the sound of the song makes it important that you leap down the fretboard from a high position and hit the 6th string for an E? how is that symbolized on the staff?
Oct 22, 2008 07:20 pm It's not, that's creative license...the music staff is about notes, not sound...
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Oct 22, 2008 07:23 pm It can also be noted above the staff view to play it open. When I score for a guitarist with a staff I always add notes for them to follow.
olddogMember
Since: Jul 02, 2003
Oct 23, 2008 01:52 am If the music is written for guitar it's going to be written with the octave range of a guitar in mind, and is really no different than a piano as far as which notes to use. E on the open string is not the same as E on the 5th string 7th fret and wouldn't be written the same in notation so it would be obvious if you were supposed to hit the open E. You have a 'home' postition on guitar just as you do a piano, you start from there whatever octave your playing in or decide to play in. If the music is written for piano then you might have to improvise in spots, though most melodies are probably going to be in the range of a guitar. Whether to use E on the 2nd fret 3rd string or 5th string 7th fret etc, would largely be based on where your coming from, and which is easier to get to as well as the sound you wanted which is up to the player. It's really no different than any other instrument, trumpet, trombone, etc., you play in the range your instrument is capable of and the music will be written to accomodate that.
ramble on.. :)
Dan
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Oct 23, 2008 12:50 pm Sheet music for guitar has indications of what position you're supposed to be playing in. This takes out the ambiguity when trying to figure out which note you're supposed to be playing. You have a 5-fret "reach" in each position.
But if you pick up sheet music intended for an instrument other than guitar, these position markers won't be there.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Oct 23, 2008 01:27 pm Ok, ok,
For me it's all about how many opportunities you want to keep open for yourself. I do bass, so there is a caviot there as well. I do everything except tab. I do ear, I do dots, I do chord charts. Ear has gotten me into a lot of Rock bands. Chord charts have landed me some jazz gigs. Dots have landed me jazz and swing gigs. Not everybody is interested in playing all those types of music. I will say IHO, it helps to some degree with all playing to have performed in a wide variety of genres, if for no other reason the diciplines learned in each.
Oct 23, 2008 04:48 pm so like with piano if you need to be in another octave suddenly there's a little symbol--8va i think it is--which means to jump an octave. something like that for guitar too?
Oct 23, 2008 05:22 pm If it was in a different octave, that's a different note, so the note on the staff would be in a different place.
Oct 23, 2008 06:12 pm like i said, with piano if you need to do a huge octave jump, the note will often appear just above or below the staff--like a high c in the third octave, above middle c, right off the staff in the white area above--and then there'll be '8va' and i think there's a way to show double octaves too. doing it that way makes it so that you don't have to draw like 12 additional truncated staff lines above or below the staff to guide the eye to the note which would then be floating way above or below the staff.
Oct 23, 2008 06:48 pm It's better to learn to sight read music before you've been playing too long cos after years of playing by ear your eyes glaze over and you lose where you are up to trying to read it.Years ago our band got roped in at short notice to do the music for 'Grease' at a local theatre.The music director had a panic attack when he came to practice as the sax player was playing the score for us to pick up. Even the drummer had his music and said "whats with the streaks of lightning" We did crack it and soon improved,the cast were good singers also very fit:)
Oct 23, 2008 07:30 pm i'm down with reading music too. several times i have gone back into it to redevelop some sightreading skills. i just never had it explained to me how it works on guitar. if someone wants to really explain it, maybe it would make sense and i might try it. i wouldn't mind it, despite what i said earlier. just can't do it until someone kind of explains how it works.
i do think, though, that its usually a bit better to make sure that kids who are just starting out aren't hit over the head with reading music. my ex-gf was a great sight reader but never learned to play with her ear or to make things up. she seems to have grown up thinking there was a correct way of doing music and she never really tested the boundaries. i know another guy who has that problem. i think it's ideal if a new student has been messing around for a year, trying to figure out music by feel. then is a good time to get into how music works, cuz the foundation is there and the confidence.
Oct 23, 2008 07:42 pm I started playing drums at 14. All by feel and intuition, as most kids without mentors do. I learned to read drum charts late in my late twenties and became fairly adept, but once I read a piece from the chart, I had to read it from then on. Couldn't memorize it. I read an interview with bassist Will Lee who said the same thing. I'm sure it has to do with one of those 'cognitive split' theories that my wife could talk about for hours on end.
Just play, and hire somebody to write it down if it's worth printing.
3 cents.
Oct 23, 2008 07:45 pm Forty, don't bother googling 'cognitive split.' I made that up.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Oct 23, 2008 09:44 pm Forty,
Not real sure bout the guitar, but bass rarely uses the 8Va notation. Neither Guitar or Bass have 2.6 kabillian octives available to them. A Guitar would have more obviously than a four string bass. Sometimes I wished they would have used 8va instead of a huge number of ledger lines extending beyond the top of the staff. Your rippin down a piece sight reading at 200 bpm and here comes this string of ledger lines, its like Holy ****! What the hell is that commin?
As per mechanical playing per reading; That is largely a misnomer. It's more the logistics of education. Back in the day there were a lot of private music teachers that were very mechanical in their approach. And of course in the "band" environment ya got 30 some odd kids on one teacher. Not much time to concentrate on just listening. Still some "bubble up" and get it. I know for me in the beginning I would read the notes till I "heard" the song in my minds eye. Then, looking back I would "read" in phrases not note by note. This just happened naturally. I was really playing the tune and bye ear and the dots just reminded me how it went along if I hadn't memorized it or played it in a long time. I always told my daughters who both chose woodwind instruments to practice both by following the music and then by just mixing it up by ear. They are still playing today and now I am seeing a couple of grandchildren doing very well in their instruments of choice.
If you don't "hear" or "feel" the music, somethings wrong. Your missing something. And the dots are more important for some isntruments than others as not too many oboe players play in bands that develop their music by ear and not too many guitar players choose to be part of a swing band.
Oct 23, 2008 11:55 pm yep, i'm not saying it's true for everyone. all i know is that those two people can only read sheet music--they can't really do anything else. they're good at it, too. to hear the girl play you'd think she was a real pro. but i think it just wasn't in her to go looking for the stuff i'm talking about, and mostly because i think she didn't really want to. now she seems mainly shy about even trying. she doesn't think of herself that way.
reading music didn't affect my ear playing or my desire to mess around and make stuff up. i think this might have been because my teachers were pretty bad, though. if they would have really forced me to get it, i can imagine that i might have become somewhat locked into it. now it's too late, thank goodness. i can learn as much theory as i want and it doesn't seem to happen.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Oct 25, 2008 09:37 pm I have to agree with the last part forty is talking about. It was actually beaten into my head that I must learn to read music and not try to improvise or play by ear. I think honestly that is what in the end spurred my creativity even further then it had already gone. I could read the music ahead and actually improvise from that point on, staying somewhat within the confines of the written piece of music. And it did give me the ability to take a piece of music and twist it into what I felt it should be.
The nun's hated me for that and it is the main reason they turned me over to the church organist for my remaining years of piano lessons. She was more apt to allow me to play a piece of music my way, if I could indeed prove to her that I could read and play the music as it was originally written.
Oct 26, 2008 04:18 am i don't know what my problem was, but i sucked at sight reading. i knew by sight the notes on the treble clef, but none of the notes above it. on the bass clef i knew only g, a, and b by sight. for any other notes i'd have to go to the mnemonic device. how pathetic. i never made any attempt to learn any of the rest of it. my teachers spotted this problem, but their approach was to just drill me on sight reading. watching me play by sight and saying 'no' when i got one wrong. their mistake was to assume i was thinking at these times. i wasn't. i wasn't trying to learn it. i was just counting up or down, laboriously.
worse than this, possibly, they ignored the one thing that might have gotten me into this whole thing: actually teaching me something about theory. i would have been open to it if they could have shown it to me as i now believe i can show it to people. but instead i was made to run through I V I vii I progressions in every key, having no idea what it was or why it mattered. it felt like work, and it was meaningless to me. they never explained what it was.
instead of teaching me the structure of a major scale, i was supposed to know them all, in every key. i did that by ear, and they would have been able to tell i was doing it that way by the way i sometimes corrected myself. but i'm pretty sure the goal was to actually memorize the note names, something i absolutely was not doing in any way.
so there was a real disconnect between what they imagined they were teaching me and what i was really doing.
towards the end (i was 17) i just stopped practicing and began showing up to lessons unprepared, sometimes performing worse than the week before. there would be awkward silences. i wasn't talking about what was going on and the teacher wasn't asking. he was visibly annoyed with me but never tried to get to the heart of it, never asked me a question.
a cool guy, but one born in the 1930s.
however, a younger piano teacher i once had was no better.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Oct 26, 2008 11:50 am It's a shame that you guys had teachers that were that rigid and turned you off to reading. I was very fortunate. My first teacher, a private teacher was a practicing musician as well as an educator and instilled a real sense of what music was all about in me, to include improvision, ear, interpertation, etc. A very wholistic approach. After my experience with him, I did run into teachers that were very machanical but I was able to take them with a grain of salt and just took home what they had to offer. It all paid off. Again, dependant upon Genre', in the real world you need it all. It is very common to get a piece that may start out with dots then have a huge segment of the piece opened up with just chord markings and then have 16 bars totaly open simply marked solo. It's pretty common for a director to "roll" a solo a few times if it is comming across well.
In all honesty, it doesn't matter to me if a person reads or plays by ear or just makes noises as long as they are having a good time. Music in my books is to be enjoyed.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Oct 26, 2008 07:11 pm Quote:
In all honesty, it doesn't matter to me if a person reads or plays by ear or just makes noises as long as they are having a good time. Music in my books is to be enjoyed.
Well said Walt, well said!
TallChapAnswer:On a good day, lipstick.Member
Since: Jun 24, 2004
Oct 27, 2008 12:14 pm How do you get a bass player to turn down? Put a chart in front of him...
