First Song Post - Comments?
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Posted on Mar 05, 2003 07:11 pm
Mat
Music Enthusiast
Member Since: Jan 24, 2003
Hey guys!
So this is my first song that I post here. I came accross this neat kinda open D tunning the other day while changing my strings so it inspired me to make a new song. I should really be trying to re-record my demo instead of writing new stuff but whatever :-) I clipped at one point which is unfortunate. The generous amount of bass was intentional. Any feedback is appreciated. (I need a singer/songwriter I think!) Thanks!
chat.carleton.ca/~mlandry/new.htm
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glynbMember
Since: Dec 16, 2002
Mar 06, 2003 06:06 am Thanks for posting your music. I had a listen.
I'd class myself in the 'singer/songwriter' category, though definitely an amateur. So for what it's worth here's my observations...
Firstly, I didn't find the bass too heavy, in fact I thought you'd got it just right, given the only instruments i could spot were accoustic guitar(s) and bass. Sounded fine.
It starts off with a really nice theme/tune/pattern however you want to describe it and i thought that would be the main theme of the music. I waited patiently for it to come around again, but it didn't, so I thought 'Oh I get it, that was just an intro', but then just as I had given up hoping to here the tune again it cam back in , but alas too late. I think you need to look at the arrangement, take that opnening them and repeat it much earlier and more often, that way it will stick in the listener's head.
Nice guitar playing, wish i could pick like that.
Great sound on the accoustic, nice and clear and crisp. Do you use expensive mic's ? Which ones?
I did notice some 'buzzing' on the strings occasionaly, which is OK as it gives it a live human feel, however towards the end there was a really bad prominent buzz which stuck out. If there had been a vocal it would be hardly noticeable, but in an instrumental piece the listener is obviously listening closely to the guitar, so it stands out more.
Overall, nice ambient piece. I wouldn't say 'song' myself (as a song needs a melody and a voice & words) but that's an argument i've had before in another thread.
Good work and a nice recording.
MatMusic EnthusiastMember
Since: Jan 24, 2003
Mar 06, 2003 07:36 am Thanks for your feedback! I'll look into tweaking the arrangement a bit. It's a pretty fresh song so I guess I haven't thought it through all that well. Just to clarify there's no actual bass, it's just the acoustic guitar. As for the buzzing, good call. It's just hard to control it when I really get into it, especially that the string is tuned down considerably.
MatMusic EnthusiastMember
Since: Jan 24, 2003
Mar 06, 2003 10:40 am Oops, I guess I didn't answer your questions glynb...I use an Audio Technica AT3035. I paid about $300 CAN for it. I thought it was pretty expensive but considering that there are much more expensive mics out there and what I get out of it, I wouldn't necessarly say it is expensive. Not that cheap, but a great value IMHO.
As for the philosophical implications of what constitutes a song, I'd really like to hear what you have to say about that. Perhaps you can point me to the relevent thread? I mean a melody is just a melodical pattern, it doesn't necessarly involves lyrics. What do you call instrumental pieces? What about a piece with vocals, in which these are used as complementing instruments, i.e. no lyrics? Is that a song for you? Just curious...
I would also appreciate more opinions on the song construction. Maybe I should just leave that 'intro' part out? I just thought it breaks the song a little and gives it more flavour. And why don't I use it more often? Well I just thought the song has to build up to that point again. Didn't really see where it could fit again. I personally thought that pattern got annoying if used excesively.
What do you think? I encourage more criticism ;-)
ozzy11Member
Since: Jan 23, 2003
Mar 06, 2003 11:13 am Audio Technica AT3035?,just purchased one myself,I really like that mic.$199.00 @ my local music store.Have you tried vocals at all through it?It really works well for me.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Mar 06, 2003 09:23 pm I for one am impressed. As far as construction, I do not agree with formula songs anyway so I will not be able to help with much critisism there. I know many artists have had to move to conventional formulas verse, refrain.....bridge..refrain construction to sell to the public's tin ear and sloped foreheads, but the GP are not musicians and they have money! Very nice detail. Even with MightyPoor3, I could hear overtones, ringing, deep resonance on the bottom etc. And yes some string buzz too. I don't know how much of this was MP3 but it seemed a little in the face and a little lacking in room ambiance, (preference thing). You might also try lightening up a little on lower tones. I noticed this playing bass. Recording my work I have started to treat the "E" string with a little more tact shall we say, evening out the spectrum. Very nice picking! Hope to hear more from you. Could have used that kind of picking on a number of projects!
MatMusic EnthusiastMember
Since: Jan 24, 2003
Mar 06, 2003 11:41 pm Walt, thanks for your nice comments. I was wondering how you would suggest that I lighten up on the lower tones? Just less of it you mean?
glynbMember
Since: Dec 16, 2002
Mar 07, 2003 07:02 am "As for the philosophical implications of what constitutes a song, I'd really like to hear what you have to say about that. Perhaps you can point me to the relevent thread? "
I think it was on this discussion group a few weeks ago. I threw in a comment about a guys song not being a 'song' but an 'instrumental' as it had no words, discernable melody or human voice on it. I got some angry responses. So I asked people around me here in the office how they would define a 'song' - all of 'em said a 'tune which was sung' (without any prompting from me).
"I mean a melody is just a melodical pattern, it doesn't necessarly involves lyrics."
Very true.
"What do you call instrumental pieces?"
I call them 'instrumentals'. Is Beethovan's 5th Symphony a 'song' - it has melodies, but you wouldn't refer to it as a song. Words have precise meanings, that's all I was getting at. it's not really a big issue.
"What about a piece with vocals, in which these are used as complementing instruments, i.e. no lyrics? Is that a song for you? Just curious... "
Yes, that's a song, it's no different to hearing a song in a foreign language you don't understand. Just sounds like a load of syllables set to music/tune.
"I would also appreciate more opinions on the song construction. Maybe I should just leave that 'intro' part out?"
The intro part is what I looked forward to hearing again. You see, I like to write 'songs' which have a structure, verse/chorus/bridge etc. That's my thing, it's what i try to achieve. I couldn't do a good instrumental like yours to save my life, but fortunately that's not what I'm trying to achieve.
"I just thought it breaks the song a little and gives it more flavour. And why don't I use it more often? Well I just thought the song has to build up to that point again."
It did build up, but the part didn't come back in for too long, in my opinion, should have come back earlier.
"Didn't really see where it could fit again. I personally thought that pattern got annoying if used excesively." It wasn't used excessively, it wasn't used enough IMHO.
You specificaly asked for the views of a singer/songwriter, so that's how I approached it. Singer/songwriters tend to write 'songs', not instrumental pieces, so that was my perspective on it.
BTW - I had to admit defeat on the 'song' definition when it said in the dictionary that animals like birds make 'songs', which is tru in the absolute sense. But I still say in common everyday usage, a song can be sung by a person and has words and melody.
Phew!! - you DID ask!
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Mar 07, 2003 08:08 am Mat,
For me it was in the fingers. Being the egotistical little bass player that I am, I used to like to punch those pedal tones because I really liked the power and rumble. After listening from the other side of the fence, recording, I started to work the strings in the oppisite direction. Now I have a tendency to push the upper neck "high" strings and go lightly on the pedal tones. This evens the spectrum on the recording. I also dampen the lower end a little in terms of sustain.
Glynb,
Yow! Yes the english lauguage is idiomatic! Talk to the nature lover and yes the "song of the bird". I do believe that general concensus of the public would be that a "song" is exactly as you have described, a recognizable patern, probably a "singer" inclusive. Amoung some musicians each instrument has a "voice" and an instrumental can be a form of a "song". Music that is outside of the "song's" general construction (intro, verse, bridge, etc.) is most often described in terms of movement, phrase, etc. and the term "song" is usualy not refered to. Song has become synonomous with; tune, diddy, etc. You are right it is not a well defined term. I could end up in la la land over this one. Is art created for the purpose of sale to the general public art? Alsel Adams insisted that painting was a synthetic art. He also insisted that photography was art as the artist could alter the context to his minds eye. He also insisted that music simply recorded was not art, just a static representation. Music became art through the musicians mind's ear.
So you tell me. What is a song? That way when we discuss the term I can relate and use it approperiately for the purpose of understanding.
MatMusic EnthusiastMember
Since: Jan 24, 2003
Mar 07, 2003 09:24 am Thanks for clarifying Glynb!
I agree with what you say. 'Song' is a word with a shady meaning. With some of those 'issues' sorted out I still just don't know what to make of what I do...
I guess before I thought of my pieces as 'songs'. I guess it makes sense to relate that to some organic voice of some kind. But intrumental is just an adjective for me. Maybe I could get used to it hehehehe. But I guess I wish there was just a word I could use. I mean I can't use Symphony, Sonatas or Concerto obviously. Maybe I'll just have to stick to instrumental. It sounds so...intrumental.
Oh, and when I said I needed a lyrycist/singer, I meant it litteraly. I think someone with a Eliott Smith/Badly Drawn Boy voice or Sarah Harmer/Tracy Chapman/Jewel voice would be nice! hehe Don't know anyone do you?
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Mar 07, 2003 06:52 pm Hey Mat, I just got around to listening to your track. Very nice arrangement, I liked the finger style playing. As Walt said, the mix is maybe a pinch heavy on the bottom end, but overall it sounded very good. I use a pluggin in WinMediaPlayer that works like a BBE, and brings a little life back to an MP3. I will give it a listen tommorrow on my big speakers, through the BBE and let ya know what I think. The string buzz, well that is something to work on. I have the same problem, only worse. And as Walts other statement said, I would try to capture either a little room amiance with a second mic, or maybe just give the mix a pinch of reverb, a small room reverb, perhaps.
Mar 07, 2003 07:38 pm wow! great song! i think i like it just the way it is. are you combining a pick with your finger picking? i think i hear both kinds of attacks in there... not sure though. great progression too, i love the changes thru differnt passages. this has alot of potential. i love the human qualities of this recording, the string buzz, the changes in tempo and the overall dynamics, way to go!
maybe you could fix that buzzing problem with differnt gauge strings. when you decide to rerecord this (i hope you do!) bump each of the really "loose" string up .001" or .002" (maybe more for the lower strinogs) and they'll tune up with better tensioning.
i like it -j
edit:
by the way, whats your new tuning?
Mar 07, 2003 11:39 pm Well Jamie I gotta say I love it! I wish you were in my area because I am about to embark on a project and I would love to have your picking style in my music. I write kind of a mixture of Folk - Country probably leaning a little more to Country. I disagree a little about the Room Ambiance / Reverb. I think that too much reverb would just take away from the crispness of the Guitar. I also like to hear a little string vibration or what ever you call it. The only thing that I heard was that was in the least a problem was the Clipping.
I have read several articles on this forum about song writing and attack it a little differently. I usually either start with a Riff or piece of music that will reflect the mood that I was in when it was created. Then I write the words. I have also on several occasions written a poem type Lyrics and then the music.
Is it a song? To me it is! Is Tequilla by the Champs a song? It Green Onions a song? If memory serves me correctly, many of the Classical Pieced that we know and love today were written as complete Concerts of music often times written as accompanyment (Spelling) for plays and theater acts. Hence the word Concerto or however you spell it. Then there is the entire world of Jazz Music, most of which have no vocals whatsoever yet as far as I know all of Charlie Parkers music were called songs!
Ok I'm done! That is a really nice Song, I wish I had your talent!
MatMusic EnthusiastMember
Since: Jan 24, 2003
Mar 08, 2003 09:22 am Hey Jamie, thanks for your comments. To answer your questions, I don't use a pick while fingerpicking. My nails were quite long on my picking hand the day I recorded that song tho so it might be why you hear attack similar to a pick's. Really good idea about the strings gauge. I never thought of that but it would probably help. Also, my strings were somewhat old when I recorded this, maybe this helped to the buzzing. I changed my strings and am back to standard tunning now tho. I'll probably re-record this song later on after I've finished re-recording my old demo.
The tunning is all strings tuned down from EADGBe to CGGFGD. I have it recorded string by string if you'd like to have it. I recorded another song in that tunning, I'll try to post it today. It's a strummy one tho...
Mar 08, 2003 01:59 pm wow, that's alot of detuning! those strings must have *hangin*
tell me more about that open tuning. is it?
6th string down a major third (flop flop flop)? wow
is the 4th string down a whole fifth (7 semitones)? or up a forth? not sure if that safe for your neck. if it feels like too much tension it probably is.
and which way did you tune the 2nd string too?
just curious :o0 thanks! -j
MatMusic EnthusiastMember
Since: Jan 24, 2003
Mar 08, 2003 05:27 pm Hey Jamie, I'm not really good with all the music theory but basically all strings were tunned down from the standard tunning. No strings are tunned up. I'm not a big fan of tunning strings higher than they're supposed to be. I do it sometimes but I make funny faces ;-) A string popped in my face while I was doing that once. I guess they were old tho...
Anyway, ya, it explains much of the string flopping in that song.
Mar 09, 2003 01:10 pm man, again, that's alot of detuning :OD looking at your profile i'm guess that ovation is the only guitar you have? because that rules out your have two guitars, one tunes standard, one tuned in your own way. BTW that CGGFGD chord is some kinda G/F chord, maybe G7. i'm pretty new to theory myself.
maybe it would be a good idea to goto your favorite giutar shop and have their staff help you pick out a custom set of strings for that tuning. they'll probably put 'em on for you. my shop charges and extra $5 for stinging and tuning up.
not sure if you're interrested, but i have an electric thats seriously detuned. I wanted to play Korn and Coal Chamber covers so i strung my Martin Stinger with a custom set of .014 to .068's and tuned it B E A D F# B. It's like a seven string guitar minus the 1st string :O) keep on six-stringin' -j
MatMusic EnthusiastMember
Since: Jan 24, 2003
Mar 09, 2003 04:25 pm Thanks for the info Jamie. I think I'll check my local music store next time I use that tunning. It would be nice to get a custom set of strings :-)
