big ben emerges as an elite qb
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Posted on Nov 13, 2007 01:29 am
fortymile
Member Since: Jan 18, 2003
www.pittsburghlive.com/x/...s/s_537653.html
Ben Roethlisberger's transcendent play has turned the Steelers into Super Bowl contenders and thrust him into the discussion of determining the elite quarterbacks in the NFL.
Truth be told, it might be a bit of a disservice to Roethlisberger to compare him to Peyton Manning right now. That is how well he is playing.
His passer rating is second only to Tom Brady, and it doesn't fully reflect the impact Roethlisberger has also made with his legs in leading the Steelers to a 7-2 start.
"There's probably only one guy playing better than him right now, and that would be Tom Brady," ESPN NFL analyst Merrill Hoge said. "If he can continue to build on that and builds it all the way up to the (Steelers' Dec. 9 game against the) Patriots, and they can beat the Patriots, I think he's got a chance to win MVP of the league."
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Nov 13, 2007 06:06 am Totally agree. Last year was a total anomally. The motorcycle accident and the apendix surgery rung him out. His focus was crap and you could see it in his face. This year is a total return to form with a lot of maturity thrown in and you can see that too.
He is looking off defenders way better than he ever did and his decision making has matured. If the offensive line actually gave him 4-5 seconds like Brady always gets he would easily be rated better than Brady. I think his scrambling ability and making plays when the offensive line cant block a turd makes him way more valuable and more talented a QB than Brady right now.
Big Ben IS the best QB in the league and if the Steelers get a Marvin Harrison level receiver the word dynasty will return to the burgh!
The Rooneys better cough up the dough too and keep him.
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Nov 13, 2007 10:01 am Um, hate to burst your bubble but with Tom Brady and Peyton Manning both in the AFC, Rothlesberger doesn't even make the top 2 QBs in the conference, much less the league.
Nov 13, 2007 10:05 am Yeah, I think Ben falls into the "standout" category, but in the grand scheme of things I'll be waiting a couple seasons before even considering him "elite".
Daunte Culpepper was called "elite" when he had world class receivers too, big deal, what makes an elite QB is guys like Bret Favre who just find ways to get 'r done year after year with whatever tools he has.
Ben is above average, a standout QB, but elite, sorry, I have to roll my eyes at that.
TallChapAnswer:On a good day, lipstick.Member
Since: Jun 24, 2004
Nov 13, 2007 12:35 pm I'm not sure that 'elite' is really true. Granted, he's had a hell of a run (with the exception of the first half of last season). His numbers really would be heralded as quite amazing were it not for Tom Brady.
I half agree with robbue1 on the points that given similar protection to Brady, Ben's stats might be better. Also, if you actually hit Ben, his completion rate goes up! I do, however, have to admit that Brady is a better QB. But....Ben is still a young guy. He's maturing every time he plays, and he'll be one we'll all remember fondly in our dotage.
I hesitate to do any comparison to Manning. Manning's a ten year veteran. Their styles are very different, and manning is not as physical.
As for a dynasty? No. Not yet. Not until the words "free agent" stop sounding like "let me go...." to the Steeler front office.
Nov 13, 2007 02:22 pm Lets keep in mind that Ben has won a Superbowl already :)
It's really hard to compare them since all three are so different and in different situations.
Brady and Manning are your traditional stand up QB's but Brady has a hugely better o-line and works in a much simpler system
Manning has a broken down line but he does have a strong running game
Ben is more mobile and much bigger, a LB in another life, but the team and system around him as not been strong. I was reading today that he was a locker room problem last year but the new coach has sorted him out.
The problem for Ben is likely to be that Manning and Brady, with all around better teams, are likely to divy up the Superbowls for the next few years, perhaps leaving him and his legacy behind them.
Nov 13, 2007 07:19 pm you guys aren't watching ben every week. you are not seeing the reasons why he is being placed--by national sportscasters--among the top three qbs in the league.
in short, naysayers are wrong. culpepper is ridiculous comparision. you have only to watch the actual games to start seeing the intangibles which put him right in the top three. then after that, look at the stats.
people are crazy. sorry, mad about this, i am.
here's a screed for ya. note the stats, then start watching the actual games.
mondesishouse.blogspot.co...angerfield.html
Nov 13, 2007 07:50 pm Actually, I am watching him a lot, since Tomlin went to Pits I have an interest in them and pay attention more than ever. Those same sportscaster were kissing Culpepper's *** a few years back, not a ridiculous comparison at all.
I will take Ben more seriously in a couple seasons...right now he is a fluke to me, once he proves some longevitiy, then ya, we can talk, until then, not even thinking about beyond "yeah, he's doing well".
Nov 13, 2007 08:05 pm if you really believe he's a fluke, it indicates that you started watching somewhat recently. the rest of us have been seeing the same amazing play week in and week out since november 2004. (last season was the fluke, but there are great reasons for it).
this may only be obvious to those who have seen every roethlisberger game since 2004, so it's hard to blame people. it's just tough to wait on peeps to realize what's been obvious for a long time to those who have watched every single play.
Nov 13, 2007 08:30 pm I have the Sunday Ticket and do watch him most weeks. He can't be held as "elite" after last season, he needs a longer period of proving himself. Had last year been different then maybe he could be considered now. He was truly awful in parts of last year, terrible decision making, petulance, poor mechanics. Makes you think something else was going on.
Interesting Peter King wrote about this in this week Monday Morning Quarterback.
Nov 13, 2007 08:58 pm i wouldn't say he's elite yet either. my point is that it's there, you can see it. time will cause it to be seen by everyone. but why bother to wait. you can see it right now. you can feel confident that this is emerging.
something else was going on last year, of course. no summer training due to almost dying, and then an appendectomy the night before the season opener. and a concussion to boot.
Keith WarrenMans reach exceeds his graspMember
Since: Oct 23, 2007
Nov 13, 2007 08:59 pm What's the big deal? That giant clock has been there for ages; Big Ben Big Schmen.
Nov 14, 2007 02:11 am big schmen indeed.
Nov 14, 2007 10:11 am Quote:
something else was going on last year, of course. no summer training due to almost dying, and then an appendectomy the night before the season opener. and a concussion to boot
That doesn't explain the locker room problems he was having or the petulance. If he wasn't ready to play he shouldn't have played.
Nov 14, 2007 10:16 am Quote:
time will cause it to be seen by everyone. but why bother to wait
Because time is exactly what separates the truly great players from the rest...that said, perhaps he will shine thru as a great, if so, awesome, but I personally won't even touch it at this point.
Nov 14, 2007 03:46 pm i think enough time has passed to make the judgment. people are now starting to realize it, but others can not or will not notice it. this is because they haven't watched all the games and plays and don't quite see the topography of the career. they see highlight clips, the occasional game, the stats, and the big 2006 season flop. they have limited data to work with. they are probably justified in their perspective, given the limited data that they have. it is possible to make an incorrect or un-prescient evaluation based on limited data or awareness. it just ends up being frustrating for those who see what's coming down the line.
fans of big ben don't mind the wait, though, as we would like to watch the progression as well. there are a lot of hyped quarterbacks who are crowned way too prematurely. it's almost an industry, doing that. so it's actually better if this must be fought for. it would be worse to have it proclaimed prematurely. it only seems otherwise when you have some beers in ya and are standing there like 'come on, what does it take!'
Nov 14, 2007 04:08 pm Did you invest in him or something ?? :)
You talk about hyped qb's crowned too early yet you want to crown a 4th year guy.
I can't argue that he's doing well but elite requires long term performance and he just hasn't done that, not even to the level of Brady or Manning due to his failures last year.
Nov 14, 2007 06:34 pm haha, no. and like i said, i will wait.
but i dislike it when guys who are obviously not playing at a high level are crowned. eli manning for example. just an adequate guy.
Nov 14, 2007 09:47 pm I see the greatness in him for sure. Last year was a mess for him physically and mentally. If nobody can understand that then I suggest you throw yourself onto an on coming car at 25 miles an hour and cut your appendix out and then just try to sit at your chair in your office and focus on work let alone play football :))
If Brady doesnt get the usual 5 uninterupted seconds to find an open receiver he isnt worth squat. Peyton is a little more mobile but not by much. I have not seen a QB create so many positive plays throwing while on the run since Fran Tarkenton.
Being a yinzer I get to watch Ben every Sunday and if I had to pick a QB to roll with it would be Ben hands down. He can hurt you in the pocket just like the other two QB gods and more so if the play breaks down and he sheds one or two in the grip defenders and then scrambles and finds the open guy on the run. The other two QB gods by that time would have been counting their teeth to make sure they had them all after getting sacked.
Nov 14, 2007 09:53 pm Show me anyone who has crowned Eli Manning, crowned him as King of Failures maybe.
Quote:
f Brady doesnt get the usual 5 uninterupted seconds to find an open receiver he isnt worth squat.
BS, sorry, Brady is terribly accurate AND plays in a good system. No need to be mobile, mobile <> good QB by default. In fact running as you describe tends to = bad system or inability to play within the system.
Quote:
I suggest you throw yourself onto an on coming car at 25 miles an hour
Show me an elite QB who does that to himself, because as you describe he did do it to himself. This still doesn't explain the story that he was very disruptive in the locker room last year.
[quote]
Being a yinzer I get to watch Ben every Sunday [/quote]
So you understand that you are biased then ????
Nov 14, 2007 10:29 pm yeah, we ARE biased. but you can be biased and right at the same time :)
robbue, i get up every sunday at 8 am to go watch the steelers at a local bar. i haven't missed a steelers game since 2004. we must be seeing a lot of things, due to our intense focus, that others can't see unless they are following along in detail.
anyway, tony: regarding eli manning. if he wasn't a manning, i don't think he would still be talked about as he is. he is adequate, but is nowhere near outstanding. still, sports analysts have played the 'waiting game' with him for years. it's the inverse situation as what's going with ben. exactly the opposite. eli's a guy who hasn't done anything impressive, but everyone expects him to do it eventually. (and that probably actually sucks for eli manning: who would want that?) ben is a guy who does something amazing nearly every week, and yet he remains somewhat invisible. expectations are creating false impressions among professional sportscasters. also, they probably feel as if they have to take this tack with manning. that they'd be going against the grain if they didn't. nobody wants to be the first to say it.
i'm not gonna criticize brady or peyton, though. they both fully deserve the title 'elite.' they are machines. but they're a different kind of machine. ben's ability to make fantastic plays when he shouldn't be able to--on the run, throwing off the wrong foot, throwing across his body, with guys sliding down his legs--is impressive. couple this with his stats, and i just really don't get it. you can't quantify willpower, but to those who have been watching since 2004, that's what we've seen, crazy 'ownership' of the game, coming out of nowhere. a decision made somewhere in the huddle, something like 'we are going to get this.' and then it happens. it's hard to even count all the games of that sort i've seen these past few years. the steelers are really crazy when it comes down to the last drive. ben has--many times--led a last minute scramble all the way down the field with seconds to spare, to win the game.
at times it's like the team is sleeping when they first show up, wearing pajamas. then they change. you can get this kind of drama from peyton and brady too for sure. but there's something about the o-line problems ben is frequently plagued with that kind of makes his decision making and execution somehow all the more incredible.
that said, it's too much to ask of one guy, and i wish our special teams and o-line were better. i'm actually worried about the jets game, because even though it's clear what ben can do, you wouldn't want to rely on it every game.
Nov 15, 2007 02:22 am
...by a safety. oooh.
Nov 15, 2007 09:41 am You guys are all nutty :) All I ever read is people criticizing Eli Manning.
Nov 15, 2007 09:46 am I personally don't see why Eli is playing anything beyond arena football.
Nov 15, 2007 09:51 am
Nov 18, 2007 06:40 pm Then Ben slips quietly away into the sunset :)
7 Sacks for Mr. Mobile.
Nov 18, 2007 07:27 pm what's this, you say you're an idiot? i'd have to agree with that.
blame the steelers, not big ben, fool. you will notice that although he was sacked many times, he didn't make any QB errors. sounds like someone has a bias, and it isn't me.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Nov 18, 2007 07:31 pm Sounds like someone is really up on Ben.
Nov 18, 2007 07:34 pm ^don't know what that means, there
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Nov 18, 2007 07:58 pm It means you are standing behind the person you believe in. In other words Ben.
I only got to listen on the radio, but they did say the line was letting him down big time.
Nov 18, 2007 08:02 pm my prob with tony's statement is that what happened today in no way negates what ben's been doing all this time. the reason he's had to become 'mr mobile' in the first place is because of the weak o-line. i think it's a little much to expect a guy to win an entire football game all by himself every single week. so tony's statement just betrays a hatred--it's not a logical statement, and it's one designed to provoke.
worst kind of sports fan, tony. seriously weak criticism.
Nov 18, 2007 09:03 pm It betray's an passionate enjoyment of pushing the buttons of people whose buttons are so easy to press, especially those who promote their favs to elite status.
oh yeah, I think you may need a more elite sense of humor.
Nov 19, 2007 12:54 am yeah, maybe.
hey by the way, quarterbacks carry tater tots and hotdogs in thier hip pouches.
sorry for overreaction. but you wait and see!
Nov 19, 2007 01:30 am It's part of the sports culture you see. One man makes a possibly outrageous claim about a personal fav, then everyone else rags on him :)
What I saw today was Manning play crap with line problems etc. etc. then lead his team to victory in the final minutes. I looked for that with the Steelers and didn't see it and I even waited into overtime :)
My actual argument is that Ben is not elite right now. To me only Brady, Manning and Favre (getting a free pass for historical reasons) are elite. Ben may well be 4th and may well become elite but it has to happen before I'll register it cause too many things can go wrong (you know he still rides without a helmet don't ya)
Nov 19, 2007 01:52 am well tony i do not think you are really following the steelers then, because that is what the steelers have done, possibly two dozen times or more in the past two years: get the game winning drive. that is what they are known for. roethlisberger is the best third down quarterback in the league statistically and also has the most last minute game winning drives if you start the count at 2004, his rookie year. you can look it up. here's a source on that:
www.pittsburghlive.com/x/...s/s_538391.html
steelers fans have no explanations for this loss. you can point the finger at the o-line and the totally absent defense and the special teams, but it is unclear what's going on with them, why they are so variable from week to week. it's like on/off, pajamas/uniforms. i have the feeling that there is something wrong with the team itself--multiple things--but not with ben. it's just that ya can't expect a guy to perform that perfectly every week. his reads and decisions were good in this game, and his throwing was fine, too. he will be back to mr elusive next week, and for many other games this year.
no i didnt know that about the helmet. that's retarded if true, but i can't verify that or don't know how to. i am not sure i believe that but if you have a source i hope you will post it, because that would be dumb.
Nov 19, 2007 06:19 am I think Chester Taylor is now an elite running back.
Nov 19, 2007 09:40 am You can verify it by looking for the interview where he proudly announced it after returning from his last bike injury.
Chester Taylor has always been an elite running back :)
Forty, see how you completely forgot about the yanking the chain part - but those last minute combebacks when it REALLY counts, like it did yesterday for both the Colts and Steelers are what matters. Steelers had route 1 into 2nd place in the AFC with a win and a Colts loss.
Nov 19, 2007 09:53 am It's...only...football.
Nov 19, 2007 01:32 pm tony, they've made that comeback in crucial games enough times in the past that by now i know that it's the rule and not the exception. you still don't know that for some reason. there are at least 12 statistically true instances of it, and double or triple or quadruple that that if you also include third quarter comebacks. i think you might be committing something like the 'no true scotsman' fallacy, but in reverse.
you're committing another fallacy too, but i don't know what it is called. if you had looked at the battle of the atlantic on a january day in the year 1941, you would have expected the allies to lose. that is not what happened, however. the mistaken judgment was made because the judger looked at a single data point.
Nov 19, 2007 02:00 pm You continue to leave a big large button out there for me to press, and every time I do it (even after I started telling you I'm doing it) you still respond :)
Nov 19, 2007 03:44 pm i have to continue. i don't want to, but you're missing the point. yes, i know what it looks like. that i have to argue this now, given what's happened, is not something i would like to do because it makes me look a certain way.
but this is no longer about football or big ben. a few posts ago i conceded that it would be better in some ways for the 'title' to wait. but the lame argument you made deserves a response. when the vaunted patriots seemed on their way to perfect season in 2005--the steelers were the first team to defeat NE that year in week 8--was the elite brady 'just having a bad day?' of course he was, to you. and when pittsburgh held manning to his own side of the field for much of the 2005 playoff game and sacking him on his own one yard line, that too was a case of an elite quarterback having a bad day, because his team wasn't doing its job.
if you want to hold the opinion that ben needs to wait, fine. i even understand that (just don't agree with it). but when you say it, do it logically and fairly, man! the same criteria you use for other QBs must apply. you're not doing that. you can't make the 'one game determines everything' argument with a straight face and expect that to not be attacked. especially here where we're talking about a huge backlog of contrary statistics.
Nov 19, 2007 04:05 pm ps let's just drop it. i accept your contrary opinion, i just don't agree with it
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Nov 19, 2007 05:29 pm HERB!!!!!!!
Put some clothes on that turkey of yours for petes sake!
Nov 19, 2007 05:37 pm See that time I didn't even press the button and you still responded.
Eventually you will figure out that I am just trying to wind you up but its taking you a hell of a long time.
Nov 19, 2007 08:41 pm arnold voice: 'don' do dat'
