advice on voicing/arrangement for a new song (no clip)
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Posted on May 18, 2007 12:19 am
fortymile
Member Since: Jan 18, 2003
i have a new song and i'd like to avoid screwing it up *in the first place* this time. because i'd really like to finish one.
it's a verse and a chorus so far. the only other thing i'll add is an intro and a bridge. anyway, i'm such an uncreative rhythm guitar player. i just go right for full on distortion all the time. power chords, either palm-muted or open.
i feel so stupid asking this question--i, like any of you, listen to music. i hear other bands doing different things. perhaps i've never 'named' these things in my mind, because literally the only thing that occurs to me is to use distorted guitar in the verse, as usual. if i don't use distortion, the sound sounds hollow and unfinished to my ears. but if i DO use it, it sounds predictable and lame and overdone. yet i find i always use it, no matter what. i wonder if i have the sonic equivalent of reverse anorexia. i always have to add full distorted guitars as if to compensate for a poor audio body-image. it's unhealthy and pathological. it's like people who starve themselves because they think they're not thin enough, but in reverse.
so i'm about to mess up this song. how else can i voice the verse? it's got piano chords in it, as well as the steve-albini kind of drums (room reverb, punchy). i'll throw bass in, but what else? should i begin using distortion before the chorus--maybe single-line stuff or something? or fuzzy but not full, distorted guitar? in the chorus, should i just use full-on distorted chords? i do like metal and grunge. i mean, this is mostly my style. but something is just eating at me here.
i wonder what my problem is. anyone know what i'm rambling about? prolly not. i feel a bit unhinged right now...
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pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
May 18, 2007 07:17 am Sounds like you're on a good path, ready to break new ground. That's good. Music styles can get stale, as I think you're finding.
To expirement, try thinking of the same song in a new genre, like country, or reggae, or latin, or funk. Change up the beat, and maybe the tempo, and see what the song says it wants as a rhythm part. After you hear it as a few different things, it might be more 3 dimensional to you as to what you can do for backing.
Also, don't overlook some of the classics: strings, pads, organs, can play huge backing for verse material. Also, playing an organ or pad, with a appregio makes a lot of background content.
Then also, I've noticed myself wanting to put in more thick content than is needed on some stuff. Alot of songs I hear are not totally full, content wise, and it's nice to not be over-done in that area.
Personally, i played straight out of my super reverb with my strat for a couple hours the other night. Man, what a nice combination. Just a light crunch, lightly chorded, or lightly chord-picked can go a long way.
of course, ymmv =).
May 18, 2007 10:38 am One thing that so many people overlook is arrangement dynamics. What I like to hear is a tune that begins somewhat easier than it ends (for lack of a better description). Songs that come at you 'crotch-to-the-wall' and stay there, with no subtleties or fluctuation in dynamics, can get tiresome to me pretty quickly. Even in the heaviest music styles, I think you'll notice that the best groups in these genres are mindful of dynamic flow.
I like distortion and effects as much as the next guy, but my ears smile when I hear them tastefully applied from start to finish.
May 18, 2007 10:47 am Things to think about are other more spacial effects...if you clean guitars sound thin or "small", try adding some chorus to it to thicken it up, or perhaps play a couple clean guitars.
I typically like distortion on 11 myself...but sometimes one thing that can be kinda cool is to split to signal and distort the highs differently than the lows. It makes a big difference sometimes. The highs scream, the lows rumble, so applying it differently may help...
I dunno, just thinkin' out loud.
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
May 18, 2007 10:47 am There are so many different flavors of distortion, maybe you need to play around with your effects box until you find a few that you can use for spice. Something a little different that will make the heavy distortion have more impact in comparison.
Remember that guitars are only part of the mix, so you can use some guitar tones that may sound less than desirable when solo'd, but they may sound fine in the mix.
mmmmmm...strat + super reverb = very nice.
TallChapAnswer:On a good day, lipstick.Member
Since: Jun 24, 2004
May 18, 2007 11:02 am I agree with Herb (Oh, dear...).
Another thing to consider would be to have a different type of distortion than you're used to. If you think of AC/DC, Angus always had a relatively clean sound. Just a little break-up. I'm working on something right now that has three tracks of acoustic until the chorus, and then I hit it with wild distorted electric (plus some pads) for a "nightmare" effect (it's about insomnia).
Anyway, dynamics (per dB-Wan), and spacial consideration (per Herb) are all good.
I try not to use the same guitar sound too much. I actually tend to write better with a crunchy guitar, but when I record I tend to go for clean guitars on the song.
Try double tracking, or recording one mono clean guitar line, and copying it. Then you pan them a little different, add a little chorus, and EQ a litte different on each. Makes for a thicker sound. Two tracks - one panned to say 11 o'clock, and the other to 2 o'clock - sounds bigger than one at 12 o'clock.
$0.02
Good luck.
Not sure if you're a fan, but Coheed and Cambria's IKSSE is great for changing it up. Great clean sound. Very dark and moody.
May 18, 2007 04:03 pm excellent replys here guys! good on you...
i'd like to add chord variations...instad of you're power chords and major/minor chords....try adding a 7th in there somewhere....do chord variations! you won't believe how much this can thicken up a song...find a chord chart on the net and play with a few, some will work, others won't. instead of dooin' a E-minor in the open position, try playin' it from the 7th fret using an Am shape....now stack that with a keyboard playin' a Em7 down below (or way above) outside of the guitar's range.
stacking chords can thicken up things quite nicely without sounding cluttered...instead of your 1-3-5 type major chord, try another 'inversion' that's 5-3-1, or 3-1-5. this will get ya out of the rut of sounding the same every time....and you can substitute these inversions in a pattern all their own to add complexity and a feeling of 'changing' to the song even though you're playin' the same chords.
also, if you the song dosn't stand on it's own with just one acoustic guitar (or piano) and singing (when there's lyrics), then it needs more work...when checking arrangments, strip the song down to it's bare essence and you'll 'hear' where it needs work.
key point, EXPERAMENT!
good luck bro!
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
May 18, 2007 05:21 pm I like using odd chord changes and altered arrangement styles for intro's and bridge's myself. They add a certain something. And indeed I must agree with the mood changes by varying the theme. Meaning tempo and or loudness changes from intro to verse to bridge to chorus. Adding power from intro to Verse or making a bridge the power section can really add drama to anything.
May 18, 2007 11:33 pm i can't really use too many odd chords unless i make the guitar clean or only slightly fuzzed. i think the verse in this song has to include distorted guitar. but the only way i know how to include it, really, is the regular ways. palm muting, or grungy, or what have you. andy time you get into color notes when you're running through distortion, the sound seems to get messed up and muddy. one of the only albums i've heard where full distorted colorful chords were played was stp's 'core.' i believe that album employed a split stack. one amp clean, the other distorted. mixed and blended until everything came through.
agh, thanks for the ideas, but this is essentially rock. so pjk, those ideas won't work here. (i'm real picky about not letting other styles enter my music. some blues and jazz is ok, but that's about it for me).
maybe a distorted organ will be a good idea. a touch of uncle dude. i notice that one band milemarker has had some success using distored organs in rock songs.
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
May 19, 2007 03:53 am You say that your "color" notes are causing messed up and muddy on the distorted channel. That could be the dissonance from a guitar that's either wearing old strings or not intonated quite right.
A new set of strings and a setup for your guitar might help you get those notes back in tune, thereby making the distortion seem less muddy. The guitar can be a pretty boring instrument when you're omitting every note that's not a perfect interval :)
May 19, 2007 05:31 am this guitar is pretty much brand new. i've only used it to record one song up till now. the intonation is spot on. maybe muddy isn't the right word. it's just that everything blends together and gets indistinct.
i believe it's just that the guitar is not really designed to sound great when the high strings are played through full distortion along with the the lower strings. the chord gets too big for the amount of distortion noise it has piggybacking along with it. as i understand it, this has been discussed by guitar players and by recording engineers--i've seen it talked about in my favorite songwriting books (the ones by rikky rooksby). STP got around it by adding a clean channel beneath the distortion (and probably selectively boosting high freqs maybe)
May 19, 2007 05:59 am ok, if you're gonna be dooin' more than just 'power chords' you gotta ease back the gain (like ac/dc)....bla bla i donno i'm the kling-klang king of the rim-ram room. so whadda i know?
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
May 19, 2007 07:32 am Oh no, i wasn't meaning to add in different styles, only expirement with different styles when testing for new ideas.
This forces you to 'think outside the box' so to speak. Forces new ideas to kick around inside your head.
Then when you go back to the normal way you're intending to play, some new-ish ideas may come through.
I think I'm getting more what you mean now, using more picking techniques while still using heavy distortion. I think you're on the right track, creative EQ, multiple tracks of the same thing, etc.
I've got nothing new =/
Oh yeah, i've got a cool distorted hammond organ sound on my juno-d. Sounds just like deep purple.
ahhhhh.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
May 19, 2007 02:13 pm Distorted organ, now your talking!
That is my favorite thing, a trashed out over gained B3 sound. Even a high gain on a Farfisa is great. But I guess it depends on the piece of music as well.
May 19, 2007 06:29 pm noize, when you use a distorted organ in your tracks, do you also use a bass guitar or do you play the organ in the lower registers and leave it at that?
May 19, 2007 06:45 pm Hey Forty, maybe you can make a more complex bass line for the verse,(ex self esteem by offspring, not complicated but main instrument in verse) so that takes the center stage then there will be even more power to the guitars in the chorus. Then if the bass is the more complex part the guitars don't have to be as perfect they can just be icing. Just an idea
May 19, 2007 06:48 pm Deleted By Cliffriff
May 19, 2007 06:50 pm thats a good idea i never considered
May 19, 2007 06:53 pm also don't know if this has been said, but a fuzz bass would be great. Maybe not with piano, but maybe!
May 19, 2007 06:58 pm i will experiment. arrangement will make or break this song. the fuzz bass idea might be perfect because it will kind of bind the two sections together. i dont want the totally quiet/clean and then totally distorted thing. good idea mang
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
May 20, 2007 06:38 pm forty, I still prefer the bass line to be there. It may take a back seat if the organ is in the lower register but it is still there, just a slightly different punchier/snappier tone to it. In the lower register the organ can get a bit mushy unless the distortion has some cool higher end over tones. I liked the Big Muff Pi for that very reason. It was able to be kind of tuned for that, adding the higher harmonic overtones when needed. I usually ran a pair of them along with the 2 Leslies. One set on the right Leslie for adding the higher tones and the other set on the left set at a pretty normal setting. In the end I had them modified to be even more tunable. But that was indeed a lot of overkill on my part. It worked a charm in the studio but was hell to get set up perfect for live shows, since we all know how the sound of a venue can change drastically once filled with human flesh.
If you listen to some of Emerson and Lords really grinding B3 stuff you can hear even in the lower register that there is still a kind of screaming over tone to the sound. Part of that was due to mod's on the organs. I preferred Lords mods so went that route.
May 20, 2007 07:06 pm Forty have you tried that new line of Jensen fuzz pedals?
