I'm bleeding
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Posted on Feb 07, 2006 04:48 am
plumbum
Member Since: Feb 01, 2006
Well that's what n'track says it's called.
Very excited to have recorded some guitar onto the computer. I'm following the n-track starter tutorial. I've recorded the first track (some acoustic guitar strumming through the mic). But when I record the second track (again acoustic guitar through mic, but picking this time) and play this second track back solo I hear both tracks like it's recorded the first track as well (what I hear in the headphones in other words).
Got my UB802 mixer connected to AP2496 as suggested in a previous thread:
Connect mic, or guitar, etc. to channel 1 (and/or 2)
Connect control room left to audiophile left input, connect control room right to audiophile right.
Connect audiophile output left to tape in left on mixer, connect audiophile output right to tape in right on mixer.
Select 'tape to mix' button, to insert your pre-recorded tracks back into your monitoring solution.
Connect the mains (l & r) to your monitoring solution; powered monitors, stereo system w/ speakers, etc.
So I'm doing something wrong but the N'track manual is very vague and just talks about using the Windows volume control options which doesn't seem to be much help.
Thanks
Martin
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TallChapAnswer:On a good day, lipstick.Member
Since: Jun 24, 2004
Feb 07, 2006 12:25 pm Try this:
Guitar/mic to channel strip in mixer.
"Mains" out to soundcard
"Tape In" from soundcard
"Monitor" (Control Room) outs to your monitors/amp (press the Tape to Monitors button). You'll hear everyting through the headphones/monitors, but it won't feed back into your soundcard.
Depress (to the off position) "Tape to Mix" so the sound from the tape in doesn't go to your mains.
You should now have the sound from your channel strips going to your soundcard; the sound from your soundcard going into the mixer, but not out again through the mains, so you can monitor via your speakers or headphones.
You were very close there. It's a weird one to get your head around, but it's worth it when you get it working.
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Feb 07, 2006 12:46 pm Thanks TC, I haven't gotten a chance to look at this again. Seems like one of the buttons may have been depressed wrong. Seemed like the routing was correct, though I could have been wrong on my think-through, to be sure.
plumb, be sure that n-track creates a new track when recording the second time around. In your track screen, there should be a new track show up each time you record something new.
Feb 07, 2006 12:56 pm yeah the 'control room' on your mixer is ment to go to your monitors...basically, when you playback, it's sending the first track combined with the new track to your soundcard's input.
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Feb 07, 2006 01:08 pm Quote:
yeah the 'control room' on your mixer is ment to go to your monitors...basically, when you playback, it's sending the first track combined with the new track to your soundcard's input.
That's why I said to 'don't select tape to ctrl room' in the step below.
Quote:
5. select 'tape to mix' button, to insert your pre-recorded tracks back into your monitoring solution. don't select the 'tape to control room' button as that would send your pre-recorded tracks right back into the computer inputs. Not good.
I'm thinking this last one was still selected.
Seems to be good either way, plumbum. Hope that helps out.
Feb 07, 2006 03:22 pm Ok, thanks again for the replies.
So, done that. We can now hear the playback in the headphones. Hooray!
BUT, we can't hear the vocal we are recording although it is recorded and with no bleeding. So, is this hust a limitation of the mixer or is there some way we can monitor the playback and what we are recording in the phones while we are recording?
Sorry to be a pain.
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Feb 07, 2006 03:45 pm Should be able to, that's the whole point of this endeavor. Hear the pre-recorded tracks, along with the new incoming signal, but not re-recording the pre-recorded signal again.
The incoming signal should be chirping along right on thru the mixer, without any obstacles, to be heard in either the headphone jack, the ctrl room, or the mains.
Something seems selected, or un-selected now so you're not hearing it. Are you listening on headphones in the headphone jack? or from the monitors on ctrl room?
I admit, this is getting confusing for me too, not actually seeing the setup =)
Feb 07, 2006 04:25 pm Right, it's a relief to hear you say that.
We seem to have tried every combination. And, yeah it must be really confusing from your end.
We have exactly the setup described above.
1) With tape to ctrl pressed down and tape to mix up
we hear playback from the card but don't hear what's going in the mic.
2) With tape to ctrl up and tape to mix up
we hear what's going in the mic but no playback from the card.
We don't want to press tape to mix as we said before.
The phones are in the headphones socket on the mixer. And the control room outs go to our amp/speakers. In the scenarios above what we hear on the phones ids what we hear through the amp.
Hope that makes sense.
Feb 07, 2006 04:59 pm I'm wondering if there's something wrong with the mixer. I'm so used to electronic kit just working it's the last thing I would suspect. But with both "tape to..." buttons up I can hear the mic input loud and clear and as soon as I push tape to ctrl down I lose the mic sound.
My undersatanding as you say is that I should be able to hear that input whatever. But it appears that tape to ctrl means just that, tape to control room and nothing else.
What a sod! Anyway off to bed soon. Spent 2 evenings fiddling with this and all day wrestling with computers at work. Deep joy!
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Feb 07, 2006 05:11 pm Is there a way to monitor via your multitrack app? I've used Kristal, Cubase, and CoolEdit and they all provide a button on each track that you can click to enable monitoring of that track if it's selected as an input.
It's not zero-latency monitoring since it has to go into the sound card, be processed by the multitrack app, and sent back out of the sound card, but if your system's latency is low then its not that big of a deal.
I have a single-bus board (Yamaha MG10/2) and I can both record and monitor through it. I use the inserts on channels 1 & 2 as direct outs. This means that I'm not recording from the mixer's main bus...instead, I'm recording directly from each channel. This frees up the main bus to be used for the return from the sound card. So, I can mix both mic channels plus the audio coming back out of the sound card to taste. I wonder if you can do something similar? I'm not familiar with your mixing board at all so I may be wasting my breath, er, keystrokes.
[edit]
OK I just looked up the UB802. No inserts, so that shoots my idea down. You can use the AUX send as a direct out, though. There's only 1 AUX send on that board so you could only record 1 source at a time. But you could plug a mic into channel 1, turn the aux send all the way up, plug a 1/4" jack into the AUX send, and then the signal from channel 1 will go wherever you plug the other end of that 1/4" cable. This could free up your main bus for the return back from the sound card.
Feb 07, 2006 05:29 pm I'm a bit confused Tadpui. Are you saying that with this board set up the way it is you wouldn't expect to be able to monitor what you're currently recording as well as hear tracks playing back from the card? PJK seems to suggest that I should be able to.
Bit too tired to get a handle on it all now, it's late here.
Feb 08, 2006 04:17 am Right, having had a look at this schematic
www.behringerdownload.de/...SPECS_Rev_D.pdf
I see what you're saying and can see that there's no way of monitoring tape in and input and only sending input out. Using the setup described above. This seems crazy to me. As PJK said that's the whole point, isn't it?
Just goes to show all the things you take for granted when you get involved in something new and then go down in flames.
Anyway if I go the route you suggest and connet FX Send to 2496 ins (presumably using 1/4" jack to twin RCA male) will I still get the same recording quality.
I guess what I'm asking is should I stick with the 802 or try and change it now for something that does what I think a mixer should do?(i.e monitor playback and mic but only record mic) and how much more is this gonna cost?
Sorry too many questions but I'm tired and emotional...
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Feb 08, 2006 11:18 am Hehe, its OK man. I think we can make your current gear work. Buying new stuff is a last resort but believe me, I get frustrated and get the same urge. Stoopid technology and its complications...
With the FX out (or AUX out, different names for the same thing), it'll output a single mono signal. So you'll need to adapt it from 1/4" mono to a single RCA mono and input it into either the left or right RCA in on your Audiophile. Then tell your recording software to only record a mono track from either the L or R input of your Audiophile, depending on which you choose to plug in from your mixer.
Does anybody else see any potential snags with this? I use the channel inserts on my mixer to do the same thing, but there's a problem with the AUX send on my mixer so I haven't used it for this purpose.
I think that all you have to do is turn the FX level all the way up, which should run 100% of the signal out the AUX send.
Then just send the outputs from the card back to one of the mixer's stereo line inputs (on that particular mixer, looks like inputs 3/4 or 5/6).
Now you should be able to adjust the monitoring level of either the mic or the return from the card without affecting what's being recorded.
Can I make something sound more complicated than it is or what?!?
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Feb 08, 2006 12:04 pm I'm looking at the block diagram, it seems that the way TallChap posted, it should work.
signal coming in through channel 1 (and/or 2)
pan channel 1 left, pan channel 2 right
mains out to soundcard inputs (left and right)
soundcard outputs to tape in (left and right)
unselect (off position) the tape to mix, so it doesn't get back into the l & r buss
switch the 'to control room' switch so it sends tape in signal to the control room &phones circuit. (other way than what's on the block diagram).
oop, no, looking again, this way won't get new signal from channel to headphones, only to soundcard.
I'll look a bit more.
Seems the problem is that Berry takes control room & phones signal from the mains out, not from the busses themselves.
It does indeed look like a pickle, it may be only possible to set this up Tadpui's way, using FX send as a mono out.
TallChapAnswer:On a good day, lipstick.Member
Since: Jun 24, 2004
Feb 08, 2006 01:55 pm But mine works!
I'll fire up my PC tonight, and be in the thread at the same time.
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Feb 08, 2006 02:00 pm cool deal TC, I'be been hoping someone get this rolling.
plumbum has the UB802, whereas your profile shows MX802. Hopefully there won't be a difference.
Looks like there is though, looks as though the MX has 4 mono inputs, and 2 FX sends.
Feb 08, 2006 02:05 pm Looks like I've opened a can of worms.
Looking at the wiring diagram I'd say Tadpui's method is the only way.
But if TallChap can make it work his way I'll be a happier man.
Thanks so much for all your time and help.
Feb 08, 2006 02:20 pm both the 802 are very, very similar, different preamps, and probably misc small things, routing options and such I think shouldbe virtually identical.
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Feb 08, 2006 03:02 pm I finally tracked down a pic of the MX802 that was large enough to read the print on the board. I agree that it should be pretty much identical as far as routing.
I'm curious as to how you do it, TC!
TallChapAnswer:On a good day, lipstick.Member
Since: Jun 24, 2004
Feb 08, 2006 05:00 pm The layout is a little different, but I believe the architecture is pretty much the same.
Now you have me doubting.....
Okay....
Wiring:
* Mics/instruments to tracks (let's ignore AUX for now)
* Main outputs to soundcard
* "Control room" outputs to monitors
* Soundcard Outs to "2TRK" input (RCA)
Logically:
The "2TK to MIX" button will complete a loop with the soundcard ins/outs. If this button is not pressed, the "2TRK" (input from the SC) will not complete the loop. If we press "2TRK to Control Room" we are allowing the input from the soundcard to be heard by the monitors. Now, if we add a sound from the mixer channels - like a mic - it will be heard in the monitors - along with the playback from the SC, AND it will be sent to the main output (the "mix"). However, because the "2TRK" - is not being routed to the mix/mains, all we are recording via the soundcard is the mic.
That seem logical?
Feb 08, 2006 05:03 pm Well, I can confirm that Tadpui's method does work. I can record without bleeding and can hear playback and input in the headphones which was what I wanted.
I'm interested in TC's findings too.
Just got to figure out all the stuff in N-track and a problem with my sound card driver.
Thanks for all your help. I'm off to bed.
