May 28, 2004 11:18 am tread lightly here peeps.
article: US Draft may begin in June 2005
Posted on May 28, 2004 11:09 am
TheTincanbug
sloppy dice, drinks twice
Member Since: Aug 05, 2003
www.congress.org/congress...=ua_congressorg
Let's please not turn this into a whole argument about the war. Whether yer fer it or agin it, the reality is that the government is trying to push this bill through as quietly as possible. And that's what this post is all about - NOT whether the war is right or wrong.
Personally, I was/am in support of the reasons for going to war - and now am of a mind that this whole thing needs to be wrapped up as effectively as possible to allow Iraq to start managing its own affairs, and to allow our military personnel to come home.
[ Back to Top ]
May 28, 2004 12:59 pm That really upsets me. The whole women's rights issue seems to have backfired. The idea of me and my brothers going to war is bad enough, but the idea of my girlfreind being forced into the army is something that makes me sick to my stomach. She's a missionary who can hardly stand the idea of small animals dying, sort of clasically feminine (wouldn't want her any other way:). Her life is hard enough trying to help people without being forced to kill them. I frankly cannot see how anyone could think that forcing someone like that into the army is anything short of sadistically wrong. I apologise if this is a little heated, dB, if I've crossed the line just say so and I'll keep it a little more toned down. Just had to say it, you know?
May 28, 2004 01:03 pm I've been in the military. Spent 4 years in the Air Force and have served with people that enjoyed and some that didn't. It's definitely not for everyone.
I made the concious decision to join and it was a good experience. But i wonder just how effective our military would be if filled by a bunch of kids who do not want to be there.
May 28, 2004 01:04 pm oh hell, we've A LOT hotter than that, you have valid concerns.
And actually, the women's rights movements worked out just like they wanted, unfortunately it's like the minority, but the most vocal wanted. Now they are equal. However, most women I know like having the door opened for them...very few are not like that, but they are the ones that bitched and moaned...as I see it anyway.
Just gotta rmember, if you stand up for your rights, you may just loose your seat.
Regarding the draft, well, keep in mind it's only used in the most dire of circumstances, not as common practice every time a little skirmish breaks out.
May 28, 2004 01:23 pm Yeah, I know that the military can be a positive experience for many people, but some of them? I mean, come on, think of the sweetest little angel of a girl you know, and then think of her being forced to turn into some kind of war machine. Doesn't quite add up. Women aren't allowed to be women anymore, because of a very vocal, and very irresponsible, minority of women's rights activists. C'mon, seriously, how many women that you know wanted to be Rambo as a kid?
May 28, 2004 01:45 pm audioguru... I know what you're saying, but - it's one way or the other. The squeaky wheel got the grease. Women fought for and won an equal right to vote, own property, not be property, and die for their country. Men are expected to die for their country, always have been, and very few argue about that. I am not trying to start an argument here - but what makes my life, as a man, worth so much less than that of a woman? I don't see that it is.
Women are allowed to be women. Now that our rights are equal, they can be anything they want. That in itself changes the nature of what it means to be a woman.
May 28, 2004 04:30 pm Oh well, war is sad, sad, business all around anyway. I just pray it ends soon. I'm quite a traditionalist when it comes to these matters, so it sorta stings. It's just that with most women, there is an inherent femenimity that plays a major part in their behavior, personalities, and lives, that makes them what they are, and the tragic thing is, that it is in direct contrast with what being in war is all about. Forcing them to do what MOST of them never wanted in the first place... well... I guess I'll stop the babbel. Thus heralds the death of common chivalry. Maybe I should just write a song and get it over with.....
May 28, 2004 10:19 pm My opinion is that the whole women can't serve is nothing more than a paradyme. My Niece is taking command of Ft. Lenord Wood MO next month. She is a very caring loving human being. She has spent her career ensuring that the troops are supported in every way possible. Yes I am sure she is capable of shooting off your gonads at 300 yrds as well. Not so different from myself. I was drafted in 1972. Did not believe in the war we were in, but understood my obligation to the country and fellow human beings. Never cared for hunting or killing, however was trained a capable as anyone on the line when the games begin. If it were a prerequsite to enjoy war before participating in one governments sure would have problems waging any. As far as being a capable soldier the only problem I could see is that a female may have the tendency to be a little meaner than most men for about a week a month.
May 29, 2004 03:01 am Koreans can fight,but be afraid of China. 1.5 billion peeps, and 9 men to every woman, because of horrible birth and abortion control there. A promise of a 2 million man army is NOT out of their reach......... the U.S. population is maybe 2.5 million????
May 29, 2004 06:31 am Personally I am not for or against the "war on terrorism" which they claim all this is to support so to speak. I vote more for the humanitarian rights of everyone if I have to vote personally as I am a simple man who likes to mind my own business when it comes to politics and the government.
However, when they throw something like this on your back door step I think its kind of hard to ignore when you're being thrown into what seems like Bushs crusade on the Oil War. I do understand that we took the fight to their country instead of having it on US turf, but that does not withstand taking rights in a free country and bolstering the military with people who don't want to be there.
Take McDonalds workers for example with the kids that work there... They do not want to be there in the first place, so they do a half *** job when they are there most of the time (you'll notice this at other fast food joints also). Would you really want kids in the military that are going to do a "half *** job"? I see no reason to put someone up there that isn't going to do the job and get it done so that the world may continue as normal. Mind you I am personally not wild about Bush and his antics to begin with, but atleast if you are going to do the job, do it right....
They seem to want to put Americas youth on the front line and fight this war, but until George Bush is on the front line and in the trenches fighting right along side of those who are drafted, it just seems un-nessecary to use the draft as a scapegoat for the congress and high elected officials who have money and power to keep themselves off of the front lines also. This is supposed to be the UNITED States of America and the only way anything would be accomplished right is if solutions are found which tide over well with everyone for the bulk of the population.
just my 2 cents....
May 29, 2004 11:53 pm Hey...Bush has told us straight out that he's a 'War President'. How can you invade countries when you don't have the troops to do it? If things don't change in the mid-east (fat chance of that) and things dont change in November (better chance of that in my opinion) then the U.S. is going to need another 300,000 troops for starters. The whole idea of invading middle eastern countries who harbor terrorists and trying to turn them into democracys against their will gives me chills. And I don't even want to think about what it will do to the generation who have to fight these wars or what it will do to the U.S. when our wealth is drained to pay for all of this. I think we need leaders who will bring our allies around the world back into the fold to help fight radical terrorism and a president who understands the word 'diplomacy'.
May 30, 2004 02:31 pm Considering the monetary issue, it's particularly frightening. The national debt of this country is something frightful to behold. Here are some stats I just reseasrched. In the 1990s the federal government created $2.87 trillion of new debt; more than created in the nation's entire history prior to 1990. Interest on the debt is $40 million per hour, 24 hours per day, 365 days per year. The national debt now? $7.1 trillion. And Bush is asking to borrow MORE for the war. hmmmmm..... I think a kindergardener could tell you that such is not very good ecenomic policy.
May 30, 2004 02:40 pm Also, consider we are in debt as well as many other nations being in debt to us...we are far from the only country in debt.
May 31, 2004 07:11 am I think I just solved the nation's debt problem. There was this ad on tv, something about debt relief being just a phone call away... or we could always just pay it off with another credit card, too... or maybe take out a title loan on a couple of ICBM's... "bad credit, no credit? get the cash you need, today! we also habla espanole."
May 31, 2004 11:14 am apparently the thought process behind the draft is that if a universal draft which crossed all economic and social boundaries existed (which never can), we would think harder when presented with an "opportunity" to go to war. however, it's hard to say that raising levels of "respect" for uniformed kids is really going to raise our level of skepticism, after seeing how intensely we "supported" our troops all along the warpath. in fact, for some odd reason, supporting our troops meant sending them into dangerous areas for no reason?
i think the logic surrounding the decision to go to war is independent of who is in the military. i would never want to join the military simply because it's not my bag, i don't need or want the US military's version of discipline. if the draft were enacted at this point, with us labelling freedom fighters of various countries "terrorists" and discounting their perspectives and efforts thusly, why on earth would i want to go point a gun at people who simply want to be allowed to determine their own destiny without the insulting presence of an empire-crazy foreign invader that has been messing with their countries for decades?
i am a strong believer in the root cause theory here...take our whole middle eastern policy back to the drawing board and make a sensible one that doesn't lend unconditional support to any country in the region despite human rights abuses, then we will stop pissing people off enough to generate REAL terrorists whose numbers are growing because of what we are doing now. the longer we wait to do this, the more people we will actually convince that we are some kind of evil country which needs to be destroyed all the way to the last breath.
so in short, no draft, get real on foreign policy, save money on military, use money where it's REALLY needed.
Jun 25, 2004 01:54 pm The problem here is that politicians world-wide are ignoring some frighteningly crucial facts about war as it's evolved in recent decades.
First, war breeds war. You can't kill people and not expect a backlash, however small it may be. You start involving religion and it's really nasty beyond that point.
Second, there can't be a second Hiroshima. We don't have some huge bomb to drop that'll just scare everyone into dropping their guns and giving up. This time, it's like a string of Christmas lights: one goes out, they all do.
Not pleasant and I think it'd benefit everyone if we'd all examine just how far into the future self-preservation becomes a sustainable concern with this mode of operation... Just a thought there.
Jun 25, 2004 02:21 pm all the christmas lights i see these days can have a bulb go out and yet, still the others work just fine, lol.
Jun 25, 2004 02:54 pm Ok, maybe like old, rusty christmas lights... The point is, I think world leaders could learn something from those fine fine colored lights.
Jun 26, 2004 02:46 am Whats going on now, is all in the Book and pretty much uncontrollable. And I didnt write it, so skeptical slammage if there is any, need'nt be aimed at me.
I think it sucks though, that the biggest oximoron here, is the fact that, US citizen, draft- dodger-hippie-peace- loving -left wing "never inhaled" pro abortion, no God in schools- great to be homo- Liberals , (whew).... have the right to publicly detest their OWN country, and their OWN country has fought to give them the right to do this!!!!!!!
Go live in China, and try that, or anywhere else!! "Viva la carpet bombing", smart weaponry is "humanely correct", but we dont get any credit for "niceness" either....
HA!!!!! I have spoken!!!
(who dug up this thread anyway, I dont usually participate in political stuff, and my post here is why I dont).....
Jun 26, 2004 05:55 am If I thought that the US president was sending troops over to the middle east just to murder people in a political power grab, I'd also be very resentful of our country. That doesn't happen to be what I believe, though. I'm glad that this country is a place where people can express themselves, regardless of what their political opinion may be.
The right to disagree becomes less important in your mind the more you share public opinion. If our next president is a liberal one, you may be glad to have that right later...
In my humble opinion.
Jun 26, 2004 09:13 am i think it's funny that people interpret criticism of our government in this "time of war" as hatred of your own country. especially if people are pissed off about things like how we are all of a sudden engaging in widespread torture of mostly innocent people. how is that hatred? how is it not wanting to make things better and not slip into 1984?
i'm extremely critical of a lot of stuff that is going on now, and i don't hate america at all. i just want it to be a place where everyone can live without having to break their backs to live a decent life or die in pointless foreign wars. people are finally beginning to talk on NPR shows about how this whole "war on terror" concept is ill-conceived to begin with, and that if we really want to do something about extremist islamic terrorism, we have to do something other than give power-hungry politicians all of our allegiance so that they can make whatever wars they want and create more terrorists.
this is really getting old. and no, what is going on right now isn't in the bible. revelations was written by early christians to describe what was going on at the time with rome and the early christian community.
Jun 26, 2004 03:06 pm I wont debate any more opposite views of mine on the war/politics thing, because like was said, we have that right. I have my right wing opinions, and not much is usually resolved by taking it further.
Ill be brief here about this though, since I was discreet enough to claim it in history, and you were blatant enough about in retort, I will debate the afforementioned by you:
Island of Patmos, Revelations was written by one man, John. Not people. It was not the end of his life, but it was given to him to write AT that time, nevertheless. There is no remnant tribe, 13 is not a number then or now, and the Book is not in chronological order anyway, so that doesnt maTTer. If its new its not true, and if it true its not new. Plus, Revelations was describing future, not the present. Ideas dreamed up for man to cultively follow, after the scriptures were written are wrong, even if you arent a believer, you would probably say, "Hey, you cant just change it"...
If you have those views you spoke about sir, I suggest you attempt to untwist them, if you dont have them, then I apologize.
I also understand that this is not what most people want to even read on a site like this. So Minkus, if you would like to post one more here, reguarding my statements, I promise to take it to p.m. only. I wont post anymore on this thread, I promise.
Jun 26, 2004 04:49 pm oops, you arent a paying member of hrc, so I cant pm you... oh well.
Jun 26, 2004 05:56 pm oops. I broke my promise......cough up the dough cheapskate!!!
Jun 26, 2004 07:05 pm come on, be cool. i'm on AIM, you're on AIM, let's talk there.
Jun 27, 2004 01:31 am It's funny how talking about govenment issues and rumors can get people all in a frenzy. I'll try and shed a little fact info . It's highly unlikely that there will be a draft of any kind for one simple rason , over the past year or so the US military has been down sizing and letting people get out before there enlistment is up and they want to keep cutting man power .
Alittle bit about females being killing machenes , well 90% of the jobs in the military are not aimed at killing, most of them are humanitarian relife jobs , office jobs ( personel, post office ) , medical , and all around support. I'm not going to get into my personal oppinions on the war and or the commander in chief , I wanted to justshed a little light on the military , and how little people really know about the spectume it has . I spent 6 months over in Iraq when things first started last year , I kept in contact with DB , noize , walt and a number of other HRC members trying to give them updates . Durring my time there I witnessed more "aid " than anything else ( and yes I was on the frount line for a little while) there were "pot shots" and that was the big part of the fighting , and that was handled by a hand full of grunts . The majority of the people over there were , medical , civil engineering , and Aerial port members . All I'm saying is I have my dissagreements just like everyone else ( i have a lot of em) I'm just trying to put across that not everyone in the military is a trained killer.
peace
Geoff
Jun 27, 2004 01:55 pm Thank you, Geoff.
Jun 27, 2004 07:50 pm the article was taken down
speaking as one who just ETS'ed out of the reserve there is no way a draft will happen. We still have long volunteer lists of people waiting to go because the people doing army junk for a career have to go or else they can't get promoted. I was on one of those volunteer lists for 4 months before I ETS'd. Last fall I had to deal with a number of career NCO's and officers who were crying after they were kicked back during the predeployment process (SRP's) because they've already been deployed too much in the past year.
Plus there is still a force reduction looming on the horizon that nobody is really sure about. I was told to expect it to occure... and we are finally thinking about leaving Germany and moving into Romania (cheaper rent) which is closer to the action anyway.
guitwizz - your china numbers are wayyyy off... 2.5 million is the population of central ohio... china is around 4.5 billion with a 2 billion man army possible (though likely pretty suckysucky) rember vietnam had an estimated 300 to 1 kill ratio... we just gave up....the US military is currently around 1.3million+.
One of the guy's at my church is on leave from afganistan for two weeks. In the past month he's lost one close friend and 4 other aquaintences over there and he still knows that they are doing the right thing and making progress. Infact the state department is holding them back on DEA operations... they ran across a opium processing "city" of 20,000 workers and were told to leave it alone. Also now that the opium crop is harvested they are getting more attacks because nobody's working. He also mentioned how his unit caught a reciently released cuba detainee in a bomb making factory...when he denied involvement they tested him and his hands were glowing with explosive residue.
Another funny thing was that accoring to a BBC online poll only 17% of Mideasterners believe things will get worse for Iraq with 40(something)% believing it will get better after the 30th. However, Urdu speakers (India/pakastan)and spanish are almost unaminus that it will only get worse.
Jun 27, 2004 11:47 pm Chuck Smith did a message a few months ago, and I swear he said 1.5 billion?!?!? I remember him saying the army could be 2 million, because I related it to the population of the US which is around 2.5....... hmmm, you may be right, but 4.5!!!!!!!????? man....
Bomb -em......... haha
Jun 27, 2004 11:52 pm please lock this topic db
Jun 28, 2004 04:47 am I am not quite sure why this deserves locking, although I have seen a couple of cheapshots, but mostly a whole lot of differing opinions...that said, these topics always get everybody pissed off. On one hand tho, I am glad to see it's not always me that gets hot in these topics as many people have tried to tell me...so that's good.
That said, it's run it's course, everybody has different beliefs, nobody can every accept anyone elses without getting nasty, so, thread locked.
|
Related Forum Topics: |
If you would like to participate in the forum discussions, feel free to register for your free membership.