May 27, 2004 06:23 pm dang it.
www.homerecordingconnecti...d=2438&frm3
sorry. i'll have to scan that. but i would particularly like to hear what CompSem has to say about this.
changing scales in mid-solo
Posted on May 27, 2004 06:16 pm
fortymile
Member Since: Jan 18, 2003
i'm not a huge fan of solos, but sometimes i want to be able to actually appear as if i can play the guitar. however, my guitar skills are very limited.
one of the things i've always wanted to do--i hope i havent started another thread about this somewhere and forgotten--is to know how to dip into modes and strange scales in the middle of a solo. right now, i'm limited to the major, minor, blues, and pentatonic scales, as well as 'whatever feels right.'
but yesterday my friend asked me for a "theory explanation" as to how to know which scales you can dip into to play over a chord progression. i thought about it and realized that there was a time when i thought i knew the answer to that question, and now...i don't.
i thought it was that you had to look at the chord type happening at the moment and figure out which scale outlines that chord. like for example, if there's a minor7 chord happening, you could realize that minor7 chords are made from notes coming out of the dorian scale, then dip into the dorian scale that starts on the root note of the chord in question. is this correct? is that basically what you need to know--which scales outline particular chords?
or is there an easier way, or am i overlooking something important?
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May 27, 2004 06:23 pm dang it.
www.homerecordingconnecti...d=2438&frm3
sorry. i'll have to scan that. but i would particularly like to hear what CompSem has to say about this.
May 27, 2004 08:35 pm The thing about Modes is... they make a concept that is very simple, complicated and confusing.
Lets say you have a Dmin7 . You can use D dorian, as long as your in a song/progression that is in Cmaj/Amin. If you're key is Dmin, you have to use the dorian scale that belongs to Dmin (G Dorian).
If you are in the Key of Dmin, then using a D Dorian, would add a Major 6th (B natural), which is not in the key of Dm. It can be done, but it will sound out of place (which may not be bad).
Modes on guitar is just playing in different positions, people use Big words (like Phryigian) to make them seem like they are more than they really are. I dont think that modal theory really transfers to guitar playing like it would on other instruments, Many people play using modes without knowing they are using modes.
Hope i helped in some way or another, and didnt just further the confusion.
May 27, 2004 11:18 pm Wow all very true.
Nice reference Forty, I remember that thread well. I think it is all about how your head works the best. It's all about being able to think fast or better yet have an imprint of tones that comprise a scale. If the modal approach works for you then your there. If a chordal approach works....well now I am going the place of a blinding glimps of the blantely obvious. Modal is a distant departure from the chordal approach I have grown up with so I don't find it too friendly. That is not to knock it. I know a lot of soloists that us it well. It's all about knowing which notes are "native" to the key and chord which all breaks down to interval sequemces e.g. major = whole whole half whole whole whole half. The ultimate result is your head "hears" the next tone and your fingers go there. I use it mostely in walking bass lines. Not the most sophisticated use but an example. If it is minor I flat my 3rd. If there is a 7th, 11th, etc. in the chord I know that is an acceptable interval to consider.
Man I just said a lot of nothing. Oh well, there's more mud inside!
May 28, 2004 02:18 pm dan, and walt...
ok, i follow you guys. but dan, i'm still confused about something. my first assumption is that minor seventh chords are derived from the dorian mode. is that true or false? another way to say it would be that the minor seventh chord is 'the dorian chord.' i don't know where i picked this idea up, but i need to see if i'm thinking wrong on that.
i followed what you said, and i see how the b natural messes up the key. that kills my whole method. i guess you could say that while it may be true that the dorian mode 'outlines' or spawns minor seventh chords, the particular dorian scale you want to use must not be out of key. because while dminor7 (the d dorian chord) is the first chord in the key of d minor, the d dorian scale doesn't overlay the d natural minor scale. and so the d dorian noteswhich are not used in the chord may clash with your key if you attempt to improvise with it. right?
but there's one thing that worries me about your post...using g dorian in a d minor key song would sound awful, wouldn't it? your note of resolution in that scale would be g instead of d. so the only way you could the dorian effect would be at those times in the song when the chord g minor pops up? because otherwise you're using all the notes of g dorian, which are themselves all the notes of F major (starting them from a displaced position) which themselves are all the notes of...d minor!
if i took to heart what you're saying here, then it would be ok for me to use (whenever a song is in the key of c) the modes d dorian, e phrygian, f lydian, etc, all the way up the scale. essentially i would just be playing the c major scale, then, but emphasizing the wrong notes. my resolutions would sound funny or nonsensical. people don't do that, do they?
from reading these posts i am thinking that the 'key' must be to focus on 'the key' and be aware of what notes are in it. from there you can branch out and grab foreign notes for a modal effect.
the only thing i can't figure out is how to know, from a theory standpoint, when to grab what? the chords must suggest possible modal effects, but i am missing some info still, a piece of the puzzle.
by the way, i dont find this a headache at all. i absolutely love it. i think theory is really important. not as important as a good ear, but still pretty useful. i'm not one who thinks it can mechanize your playing, unless you take it mechanically.
May 28, 2004 03:42 pm Hey. The Min7 can be any of the minor chords in the scale, because ALL minor chords in the major scale have dominant (flated) 7's.
The Dorian Chord is a Min6. thats dorian's clam to fame, if you will. and even if the dorian chord is just straight (for argument's sake, D) Dm, the 6 note is implied in the scale and key of the song, so in the context of the progression, it would be in Key, theoretically.
You CAN use the dorian mode when you are not on the dorian's chord (in the key of Dmin/Fmaj it would be Gm), it adds a different sound.
Quote: "essentially i would just be playing the c major scale, then, but emphasizing the wrong notes"
Exactly! but no, resolving on and emphasizing the wrong notes wont neccisarily sound bad, it would add a bit of a different flavour, though. and, people do do that. i do sometimes. experiment, feel the sound of using each mode.
The Key IS indeed the focus. knowing what notes are in the scale is the biggest part of figuring out the concept of modes. It seems like you have it.
In Theory i guess its meant so you can use dorian modal leads over the dorian's chord, but when used otherwise, it sounds cool to use them over different chords.
May 28, 2004 03:49 pm And Walt, just cause you mentioned walking bassline's, to me that seems like the most important place where your knowledge/understanding of modes would need to come out most. Most Jazz charts give Guitarists and bassists have the same basic sheet that says the chords (Usually one of them hand written scans from "the real book"). a guitar plays the chord, and all you need to know is the Notes within the chord, lets say a Dmin7. A bassist has to know which Degree chord that is within the key, so he doesnt hit the wrong 6th etc. ya know? Im saying this from my experience playing both bass and guitar in high school jazz band.
May 28, 2004 06:11 pm --"Hey. The Min7 can be any of the minor chords in the scale, because ALL minor chords in the major scale have dominant (flated) 7's."
yes, this is true.
thanks guys. actually, this thread has just given me a lot of ideas for experiments to try, to see if i can make sense out of this.
the first thing i'll try is writing a few progressions in c and then test to see if E phrygian is the only phrygian scale that'll work over it. do you guys have any tips as to which chords to use with that? i guess if i go back and forth between c major and e minor, that'll be in the key of C but will have that f scale note a half-degree removed from the root note of the e chord. i could maybe emphasize that note for a phrygian sound?
of course, in the key of c, if you slide back to the c chord via the c# note--which is technically out of key--that often sounds ok and it gives a phyrgian flavor. a C phrygian flavor. so whats going on with that exception to the rule? i guess just because you're not using the minor third note of the c phrygian scale, you're not undermining the sense of c major as a key...?
for a real modal sound, though, i've often thought that i might have to use modal progressions. actually harmonize a mode into chords, and then use them to write a song.
May 28, 2004 07:11 pm Well, if your in the key of C, and say your walking down from a Dm to the C, that short C# is considered a "passing tone", and its kinda allowed i guess.
My favorite part about music is Breaking Rules, like, as you said, using a mode that is not "theoretically" supposed to be there. I ll like to try and find ways for things that dont belong to work. See what you come up with.
I like to write progressions where the chords make little sense, you can harness the power of the out of key chords to Build and release tension to the point of insanity. Then With your weird progression, try and work out leads that work over this. I love accidentals.
I love talking about music and theory. always gets me inspired to write more.
May 28, 2004 08:51 pm it didn't seem to work.
i did the c major to e minor chord change, playing the e phrygian scale over it and, well, it didn't sound phrygian.
i must conclude that playing e phrygian in the key of c doesn't lead to a phrygian sound. the reason is that the underlying key is major, and the phyrgian interval pattern just sounds like a dislocated c major scale over top of it.
as soon as i eliminated the c major chord and made the e minor chord into the tonic, though, it started to feel right. i have to conclude that the essence of the phrygian sound (one of them, anyway) is the flat 2 note in the scale. your ear has to hear that note as being right next to the tonic note.
so, i have to conclude that--technically, from a theory standpoint--you cant just use all those different modes inside the key of c. in the key of c major, you'd be limited to the major modes, and only the ones starting on c. that would be c ionian, c lydian, and c mixolydian. and they would only work sometimes. at those times where other chords in the key didn't clash with them.
but that takes me back to square one, as this has always been how i've understood modes. there's still no clear way i can see quickly assess exactly when a modal note will sound cool. i think i'd have to be able to evaluate the note content of any "surprise chord" that comes along and is foreign to the key, and be able to spot which "outlier note" inside one of the chords is the modal one, and then accent it in my improvising. there's no way i could do that. for years yet.
anyway, you might be getting cool results dan, but i question whether you're using the modes 'modally.' but if you think i'm wrong about that, explain again if you want. i could be wrong but i feel very sure. everything i've read meshes with this way of seeing it.
May 28, 2004 09:22 pm Yeah, if you're playing in C major and playing a phrygian mode using the correct notes in the C major scale, I suppose it could be argued whether you're playing "modally" or just playing parts of the C major scale in different positions on the neck.
40, I don't know if this is what you're looking for, I personally get "modal" sounds when I solo by slipping out of the - dang, my theory vocab is failing me here... When you are, say, soloing in E minor, and for a bar or two you do a run as though the scale starting at E as though the scale starting at E was a phrygian mode (or another minor mode). I think that might technically qualify as a key change? (EDIT: actually, now that I think about it, it may be more of just adding an accidental or two than a real key change, but what do I know? hahaha tcb) Along the same lines, I also swap my standard major scale for a mixolydian or something.
musing to self... ok, that shouldn't have been so hard to put into words... maybe it's time to break out the heavy guitar bible for a refresher... I'm a few years out of college and don't use this stuff daily. Don't wanna get too fuzzy...
May 28, 2004 10:58 pm Ya Dan you got it, and as you mentioned above the first thing a sound understanding of interval composition (avoiding chordal and modal) is to ensure that the sounds made are not real disonant. And your right on open charts or open passages (chords and slashes) the bass and guitar are often the same. But as Forty mentions there is also the flow of the piece to be considered. I know when I am sight reading a piece down I will often make changes as I move along and the last part of the song will obviously be more accomplished than the first part. Especially when I am working with the big band there are some compositions that really streach the envelope and there are sub chordal (sorry hard to avoid) themes going on that can be trickey to support. But there is just one more reason that I love music. Endless possibilities.
May 29, 2004 01:33 am tcbug,
i think thats what i'm saying. if you're soloing in an e minor scale and you break out of it for a second and play the note e followed by f, that's the flat second, and that's part of either the phrygian or locrian modes, the only two that use a flat second.
if there's an e minor chord underneath your altered e minor scale at that moment, you won't clash with it because e minor is scale steps 1, flat 3, and 5, and has no 2 at all. you can therefore--at the least--play the 1, flat 2, and flat 3--the first three notes of either a phrygian or a locrian scale, and you should be fine.
May 29, 2004 07:19 am You know, if you are looking to get into really "modal" sounds or just music with lots of tension from notes appearing outside the standard scale, one thing that helped me - outside of knowing some theory - was to listen to Indian music. I mean, to the Indian classically-trained musician, what he's doing typically falls into a clear system of ragas (Indian near-equivalent to modes, I suppose you could say) with movable notes in a scale. But seen from a Western perspective, the lead instruments are creating a lot of tension by sounding notes outside the major and minor scales.
Some of the really good jam bands as well, like probably Phish or Grateful Dead for example, as well as some of your less tame jazz fusion musicians as well use a lot of tension by adding notes outside the scale.
May 29, 2004 11:19 am that's actually how i got into modes. i was 17 and someone let me borrow a tape full of ragas. it was an extremely cold winter, and i spent a week hanging out at a friends' mom's vacated apartment. what a week that was. (nothing deleterious, just the rush of basically having your own place for a whole week at that age.) anyway, the place was about 45 minutes away. i would drive out there in the dark blizzards with this one raga playing constantly, and there was a particular note that was haunting. i later learned it was the sharp 4--the lydian note. that's still my favorite mode.
also that year, i had gotten into the dead's 'built to last' album, and became addicted to the song 'victim or the crime,' another song that uses the lydian mode. but also a lot of other very strange ones. that song is barely even in a key. do you know of any other dead songs that are modal in a spooky or unsettled kind of way? those are the kinds of things that interest me. i can listen to the dead and hear the mixolydian everywhere, but i don't get too turned on by that one.
May 29, 2004 11:25 am i hope i didn't upset dan. for all i know i'm actually wrong abou what i'm certain about. come back, dan!
May 30, 2004 06:22 am "do you know of any other dead songs that are modal in a spooky or unsettled kind of way?"
Honestly, I know the dead by ear alone, I don't know their songs on the guitar. I think "Box of Rain" from American Beauty has some parts of it that feel modal, but I couldn't swear to whether it's a good example of what I was talking about. The stuff I've heard from the dead that I felt highlighted modal changes was mostly in the live stuff, and we have a bunch of live dead tracks downloaded from live shows in years past on cd. I don't know the names of most of the songs though, so I couldn't tell you where to start looking.
May 30, 2004 12:57 pm no prob.
i am looking to try a new dead album. you seem like a pretty big fan. what's the name of the "hookiest" dead album? i.e. one that has songs that feel closer to pop structure?
i'm also interested in hearing more dead songs with 'weird' chord changes. i don't get so much into the rootsy americana-mixolydian side of them as much as i do the psychedelic side.
i dunno. i have always wondered which album i should try next. no one i know ever has any dead albums.
May 30, 2004 01:24 pm beats me... a lot of their stuff, I don't know the names to or what album they're on. I'd recommend American Beauty just becuase it's my fave, but I don't think that it's what you're looking for. sorry...
May 30, 2004 02:13 pm Skeletons from the Closet is a greatest hits package that is pretty good in my opinion, and while not a typical album, I also consider In The Dark to be one of their finest works.
Also, if you get the chance listen to Dicks Picks. It is a collection of outtakes from their sound engineer, sometimes two or three versions of the same song and stuff like that...it's a collection of a few CD's...
May 30, 2004 04:10 pm thanks, i will check these out...making mental note...
May 31, 2004 03:03 pm Hey forty, didnt upset me at all! in fact, i was away on vacation for the 3 day weekend, up in the mountains of upstate New York, had a good time, got some relaxation and played my a'coo-stick
I see what you mean about using the major modes, and that works too, just a different way of looking at it.
And, TCB i love indian music. i have 3 Ravi Shankar CD's that i listen to a lot, great stuff, the Sitar is an amazing instrument.
And my personal favorite dead album would have to be Workin Man's Dead and American Beauty, but those are more along the lines of the "Americana" side as you called it. terrapin station is great too, and may be more of what your looking for.
May 31, 2004 03:30 pm cool, i shall check thems albums out.
if this thread dies out pretty soon (as they often do) i'd like to just leave a message for future thread visitors:
issue unresolved. feel free to contribute!
May 31, 2004 03:56 pm Forty, i think i kinda lost track, but i think the out of place sound you are going for is not achieved by using the modes and strict theory, but by using accidentals, using chord progressions that kinda move out of key at times. Personally, that is my favorite kind, cause it opens you up to all kinds of new possibilities.
am i right? is this what your talking about, or am i way off?
personally, i love weird chord changes.
Jun 01, 2004 10:27 am Harmonic minor scales and melodic minor scales are good things to learn for changing positions in mid solo. Chromatic scales can make you sound very eclectic in your delivery, very cool to do fast. Remember the first rule in RnR.....there are no rules!!!
Jun 01, 2004 02:11 pm gregor those are three cool sounding scales. three of my faves.
dan, if you do it your way by just trying stuff, or my way via strict theory, you can get the same-sounding result, so i don't think it matters so much which way you go to get there. i just don't like not being able to explain things to myself. if i come up accidentally with something cool sounding, i'll try to figure out why it sounds so cool, from a theory perspective.
even accidentals...even when you're trying to insert an 'out of place' note, isn't it gonna be a modal note relative to the key center? it'll belong to one of the modes, if not several of them. i think it's all in how your ear perceives it. you could call it an accidental, or you can stop and take that note relative to the key center and figure out what modal note the player just grabbed. but it gets tricky and things can be seen in more ways than one. this is part of why its so cool...
for example if you're soloing in C and the guitarist does a descending riff where the topmost note falls down from c to b to b flat, that will add a bit of tension...to your ear the b flat will sound out of key, but he could also be said to be dropping momentarily into the mixolydian mode, the only mode where the tonic chord has a major third (he's still playing c major) but a minor seventh. in any case, the b flat is heard as not belonging to the c major key that your ear has come to perceive over the course of the song.
of course, this note also turns the c maj7 chord into a dom7 chord which makes the key center want to change to F. if you do that, the mixolydian note sounds intentional and 'in key.' if you don't, it just sounds like a blue note. something a bit off, but cool.
i just want to get this straight in my head. and then i want to learn secondary dominants.
Jun 01, 2004 07:25 pm I hear what your saying. i think we are on the same page, but using different explainations of it. You explain it as entering a different mode momentarily. I kinda over-simplify and say it as an accidental, even though in theory, your explaination is deeper and more in depth. But... its all good.
Jun 01, 2004 09:01 pm accidentals are also a good way to look at it. nothin wrong with that. i'm just looking for a way to better understand and even start using modes. i thought this might help me, but it has yet to be seen.
one cool thing is that chords with accidentals can sometimes act as secondary dominants. this is something i want to verify. do you know about those? i've heard that if you play a d major chord while in the key of c, for instance, that chord doesn't belong in that key. you could call it a chord that uses an accidental. but you could also say you just reached into a "meta key,"--especially if you play it as a dom7 chord--in this case the d dominant 7 chord is acting as the dominant 7 of G major (the fifth chord in the key of C)--and G IS in the key of C. it's like you step outside the key for a second and visit the one of the cousins of the C family. at that point you can either go back to the c family, or use that dominant7 pointer chord to target the G chord as your new I. it sounds like it's a good way to change keys. i guess this is one way to explain what radiohead and the beatles often do.
anyway, off topic a bit. but this stuff is so cool. you can even view key changes (like in classical pieces) as being part of a larger key--a meta-key that uses keys isntead of chords and notes! like if the piece changes from the key of G minor to the key of G sharp major and finally to F minor, you could say that the whole piece is in the meta key of e flat major, without it ever having touched that key. because those keys are part of the key signature of e flat major.
i am long-winded. i apologize.
Jun 02, 2004 09:07 pm thats great way to look at it, opens up tons of possibilities, i understand the concepts, but id definitely be interested to learn more theory of that sort.
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