Need Input...Please Read

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Member Since: Oct 26, 2003

Need input…

Here’s the thing, I just go offered a great opportunity to relocate and upgrade a recording, mastering and monitoring station/studio for a local church. Well, that seems all good in the beginning, but what I need now is input.

Where do I start? From what they have told me, they want to upgrade most of there equipment. The main mixing board needs to be upgraded for sure, as I was told. So, I’m thinking of getting a Mackie or a SoundCraft. I used a SoundCraft before at another church, and was very pleased with the sound. The stage for the Choirs doesn’t even have monitors, nor does the Priest. These are things I need to look at. Also, the church has a long hall and has speakers set up on every other pillar. Except for the pillars at the far end, the people at the very back sometimes can’t hear what is being said, or the sound is delayed so much that they are seconds behind. I need to find out what company makes good signal processors to help me with that delay in the speakers. The last major problem is the recording media. I have suggested to use a DAT machine to archive, or a ADAT machine. A computer need to be updated as well, with a CD burner and some type of program to recorded and edit.

I know the problems, what are the solutions? As far as the mixing board is concerned, this is what I have thought of. I’m going to go with a Mackie or a SoundCraft. To tell you the truth, I would rather go with a Mackie or a Neve and keep the computer down to a minimum. I don’t want any restarting during a recording. Maybe a good mixer with presets, in the long run, with all the different type of events that go on, this would be a good idea. Any suggestions? So far I know that they have a choir, huge may I add, and a bunch of priest, I’m thinking a minimum of five or even seven.

Now for the stage monitors: I want some thing that looks fancy, I know it’s not the looks that matter, but it needs to look nice because it will be displayed to everyone. I know JBL and Yamaha make fancy stuff, but other than that what other company makes great speakers that ‘look good’. But more than anything I want quality, great monitors at a very good price.

As far as the recording media is concerned, I want to get a Tascam DAT machine. This would be good to archive, or I could get a CD or even MD. I know MD has bad sound quality, but in the end it would save a lot of space. If I record straight to computer or computer being in the system, I would like to go with Cubase SX or Pro Tools. I need it to be compatible with MIDI, as the organ in the church has midi capability and I would like to have that archived as well.

So please, any input would be great. Give me input of anything! Anything that can happen, be it good or bad, I want to know so that way I can be ready for it. I also would like input on other equipment that would be useful, ‘Outside equipment’ For example: Two Way Radios, Flash Lights things that will help me be more prepared.

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Freeleance Producer/Engineer/Gtr
Member
Since: Aug 11, 2002

Jan 10, 2004 07:30 pm

Well... what's their budget? What type of recording will be done? strictly live or stuff requiring overdubbing? what does the church plan to do with the recordings? This will help us (well, me anyway) help you to find a more precise setup.




Cone Poker
Member
Since: Apr 07, 2002

Jan 10, 2004 07:59 pm

if you've got a good budget I'd get a Soundcraft Ghost console over the mackie, those rock, and I'd record to ADAT as well as Hard Disk. As far as the PA system goes, I don't know much about it so I can't help you out. But yeah, the first issue is how much do you have to work with money wise

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Jan 10, 2004 08:12 pm

Well to be honest, I would stick with the soundcraft for the board. They have better options for use in worship sound systems. I know that sounds hokie but they have better systems geared toward live systems then mackie does. But what you need is something that is geared toward both live recording as well as FOH, so Soundcraft is a better choice. A Neve would be way overboard, unless the curch has an over abundance of cash floating around.

I wouldnt put all my eggs in one basket as far as archiveing goes, I would record to multiple media, such as going to both an ADAT or DAT machine, as well as a PC. This way you have a backup if one fails. A PC with Cubase SX or Sonar 3 Producer edition would be just fine. Both of these apps will give you the facility to record both audio and midi. And the mixing environments are second to non. I recomend staying away from PT for worship type systems, again it is a money thing as PT can get to be very expensive when adding audio interface hardware.

Moniters, now I can see that for the choir, but does the priest realy need a moniter as well. he is generally speaking while it if fairly quite in the church and probly can hear himfelf OK. I dont think I get what your looking for as for as far as the term fancy goes. I dont really know of any company that makes a stage moniter that is fancy looking as far as that goes. I would try to find something that is small in size so as not to be obstructive view wise, and maybe would be small enough to not be to un-fancy looking. The newer JBL's have smooth caseings and would be very pleasing to the eye if that is really the way you want to go. Again, if money is in great supply, you could always find someone to recover any moniter you buy in a color cordinated material to go with the interior of the church.

And again the archiveing thing, MD is not bad sounding at all. I use that media for sampling porpuses and it works just fine. The fidelity is great. So that would be a good alternative to DAT as well.

Lastly, How big is this church? A few second delay is something you would find in an arena not a church. I guess before I recomend something for that area I would like to know how big the system is they are running now, and also how big of a speaker are you looking to put on those pillars? Delay compensation is something that can also get pretty spendy, and if its truly not needed I wouldnt go there.

Hope this gets ya started, and look forward to getting a bit more info to help out with the main speaker system.

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002

Jan 10, 2004 11:15 pm

Wow! Sounds like a wonderfull opertunity. I would hope that they will afford you a little time to just hang out and access their needs and not just run off buying equipment. I know the type of delayed fire system you are talking about. I worked for a small electronics shop while in college in the Upper Penninsula of Michigan and a stone church in Beriga Michigan had a system like the one you are describing. I had the origional design specifications of the system and could set delays from that as tolorances changed over time. I appologize, but that was 20 years ago or so and I don't remember the manufacturer of the equipment. I would imagine you could start with any manufacturer of large scale PA equipment like maybe Bogan and start getting details on how delayed systems are set up. The one I worked on fired the very rear speakers first, then the second set from the rear fired just as the reflection from the back of the hall was entering their firing area. You could probably start with the 1ms per foot rule. Anyway the speaker sets kept firing from rear to front of the church as the reflections got to the next set to the front of the church. It was amazing how clear this firing scheam worked out.

As far as actual equipment, I will just second what has been said. Find out what they are doing and what they need. Get a feel for their budget and start putting together spread sheets. All of the types of equipment you have mentioned have a place in audio work. The other important aspect to consider is the people aspect. Who will be using the equipment besides yourself and what are they comfortable with? The best system in the world can turn out to be garbage if no one can use it.

Member
Since: Dec 23, 2003

Jan 14, 2004 12:42 pm

I have to go with the others on the board. I would go with the Soundcraft. Loki metioned the Ghoast... I was thinking about buying one of those myself.

A unit that might be iteresting to take a look at for the speakers is the dbx DriveRack Studio. I would have to look at it again but I think you can hook up 3 sets of stereo speakers to it. It has all kinds of tools in it: compressor/limiter, 28 band graphic eq, a paremetric eq, and it has the ability to time delay the different sets of speakers. It also has a real time analizer, and if you want it to, it will adjust the eq for the room automatically. It runs in the $500-$600 price range. It might be worth a look anyway.

Monitors? I'm an EV guy. I can't help you much there. I don't care who else is making floor monitors... I love my EV's.

Member
Since: Oct 26, 2003

Feb 02, 2004 01:43 am

First, let me start by saying thank you very much for everyone’s input. I know it has been a while since I have posted anything, but I finally put some time aside to give everyone a little update. So, with out further a due, let me begin. I’m going to answer all the questions that were asked.

el musico: “what's their budget? What type of recording will be done? strictly live or stuff requiring overdubbing? what does the church plan to do with the recordings?”

The budget, sorry to say, hasn’t been given to me just yet, I did give a proposal that will be looked at this coming Tuesday. The proposal had information about each phase that will take place during remodeling/updating of the recording area/equipment.

The recording type, if any for this situation, would be live recording. All the recording will be of speech from the minister and singing from the chorus with a really huge organ (more info will be given of organ and choir).

The recording is recorded straight to tape and cd for archiving. Tapes are then duplicated and sold at then end of each sermon. During special events, such as the Bach festival, (coming soon) will be archived onto DAT. This is what the church has been doing for the past 10 years. During weddings and or funerals, a recording will also be needed; these do get archived, only for marketing purposes.

Noize2u: “How big is this church? …and also how big of a speaker are you looking to put on those pillars?”

The cathedral is somewhat big. From the very front of the cathedral to the very end is about 200 feet, give or take 20 feet. From the floor to the ceiling, the cathedral rises 3 stories in some places and no less than 2 in others. From left wall to the right, your looking at 20 - 30 feet where the sitting area is, and 50 - 60 feet near where the choir sings. I’m going to be getting the blue prints by Tuesday.

I don’t want a club style speaker to be placed on each pillar, but I do want a 3 way speaker system on each pillar. When the choir sings, the dynamic range is very huge, and the frequency response of the speakers should be able to react to the choir.

Walt: “Who will be using the equipment besides yourself and what are they comfortable with?”

Well, as far as that question goes, I really don’t know, to tell you the truth. I was told, that if I should miss a day or should I go on vacation I need to train someone at least 2 weeks before I leave.

Okay, now that the questions are out of the way, let me get into detail with what is going on, if I repeat my self from what I wrote earlier you’re going to have to excuse me.

So, first the most important issue, the choir. The person who ‘updated’ the cathedrals sound system the first time thought it was a good idea to NOT put any overhead mics where the Choir. That is the first major thing that will be done. As far as over head mics go any suggestions? I have looked at Shure mics, the 81’s, I thought they were good, but I know their are better ones. So, please any suggestions will be great. I will need a total of 4, two above each choir group. One choir group will be standing on one side of the cathedral while the other group stands on the opposite side. Was hopping to find some with super cardioid polar patterns, as I don’t want to get too much reverberation from the cathedral it’s self. Also, if I place the mics to far apart, will I have to put them out a phase?

Now, for the ‘fire alarm’ speaker system, I have done my home work and check out a couple of equations that I thought would be helpful to find out what time delay, in ms, would be between each speaker. So, any math people out there, take a look and tell me if this is right:

Speed of sound: 1130 feet per second at 68 °F and is temperature dependent, with a rise of 1.1 feet per degree. The speed of sound is also affected with humidity, the higher the humidity the faster it travels, the lower or dryer the air, the slower it travels. This isn’t significant to what I will be discussing, but might be considered due to the changes of seasons.

So, with that said, the temperature inside the cathedral is set at 70 °F so that means the speed of sound travels at about 1132.2 feet per second. If the total distance of the church is 250 feet (over estimation) and each pillar is 20 feet apart. Then what would be the time delay between each pillar?

Well, this is what I got:1132.2 feet per second is the same as 1.1322 feet per ms. So, for 20 feet, it would be a time delay of 22.644 ms. Right? So that means between the first pillar and the last pillar, with a total of 12 pillars it would be about 271.728 ms in delay. Right? I don’t know, maybe I don’t need to get all into it as much as I did, but I think it will help me with the ‘fire alarm’ speaker system.

Okay, I’m going to have to write more sometime soon, keep everyone up today. Again, thanks to everyone who gave me input, I want to do a good job of updating this cathedral, the last person only made things worse.

Thank you.

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