Issues with low frequencies in mixes
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Posted on Jan 30, 2013 09:57 am
stratwizard
Member Since: Nov 19, 2008
Hi All,
I have been working on this project for some time and I believe there is something that I am missing when it comes to the low frequencies in the mix.
After I am done with a certain song I test listen to the song on different speakers/headphones to see how the mix differs. When I do this with an album that was mixed by a professional the mixes sound much more constant regardless of where I listen to them (small headphones, car, PC speakers, my studio monitors M-Audio DSM3). For example the bass guitar and low end frequencies can still be heard through small headphones and the songs don't get muddied with too much bass when you listen to them on speakers capable of producing more bass.
However when I listen to the mix that I am currently working on, the bass is very muddy and dominant on some of the places I listen and completely gone in others. I hope this is not a dumb question but how do big studio recordings obtain such a mix that the low frequencies sound appropriate regardless where you listen to them.
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Jan 30, 2013 10:42 am You are having issues with Harmonic balancing...read some of the info at www.har-bal.com/ for more info on the problem. The Har Bal application makes very easy work of fixing those issues, and, while I am not trying to sell you on the app, the site has quite a bit of info.
J-botByte-MixerMember
Since: Dec 04, 2007
Jan 30, 2013 01:56 pm Er, I'm a big proponent of "you can't fix what you can't hear."
What is your mixing room like? Listening position, any acoustic treatments and how they are placed, where the speakers are located, what kind of speakers you use, shape of the room and room dimensions, etc.
My guess, is that the low end doesn't translate well because the room environment (and possibly the monitoring chain) is inadequate in those frequencies. Many would say that the room + speaker combination is THE most important thing to get right, otherwise you can't trust what your ears are telling you.
So, let us know how you're set up, and we might be able to make some suggestions to improve the acoustic space so that you have a more balanced sound in that room. A room diagram might help too.
TheTincanbugsloppy dice, drinks twiceMember
Since: Aug 05, 2003
Jan 30, 2013 08:48 pm You could get a nice set of studio monitor headphones. Once I did that, I could all kinds of stuff in my old recordings, that I couldn't hear when playing my music through average home stereo speakers.
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Jan 30, 2013 08:53 pm dont forget you havent had it mastered yet either.
Jan 31, 2013 11:46 am Quote:
dont forget you havent had it mastered yet either.
Maybe so, but I'd rather work on projects that don't have whacked-out low end problems. :-)
Monitoring, trapping, more trapping. I'm with J-bot. No matter EVERYTHING else (gear, years of training and listening experience, etc.) you will only ever hear as accurately and consistently as your monitoring chain allows you to hear. And no matter how accurate and consistent your monitoring chain may be, it will only ever be as accurate and consistent as the space they're in allows them to be.
If there are "rules" to recording, those are the primary ones.
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
Jan 31, 2013 12:03 pm Agree totally with MM and J-bot... gotta have a good monitoring environment....
However,
If you are mixing in the same environment and it sounds weak listening back after mixdown in the same environment then you need to check to see what channels/busses you are mixing down.
HippieRockstar Vatican AssassinMember
Since: Mar 20, 2009
Jan 31, 2013 02:20 pm I would imagine one of the things to look out for is the extra EQ applied to external sound devices too. I know in my Truck and even on my Home Surround, the bass and trebs are cranked! Naturally, the low and high frequencies are enhanced compared to what my mix sounded like behind the computer. I've actually come to terms knowing that what may sound like **** behind my PC actually sounds a lot better on other systems... and work with that mentality (i.e.. roll off more bass than I think I should).
Another thing I do is use a spectral analyzer and compare my mix to a professional mix (of similar sound)... and try to line up the highs and lows. Mids always vary, but you can at least guage how you compare to professional recordings (see the cutoffs, etc...).
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Jan 31, 2013 07:06 pm @MM. yeah was more refering to his consistency comment in regards to mastering.
Jan 31, 2013 09:39 pm Quote:
For example the bass guitar and low end frequencies can still be heard through small headphones and the songs don't get muddied with too much bass when you listen to them on speakers capable of producing more bass.
Mix on shitty speakers. 'Pro' guys I know spend a lot of time on boom boxes or cheap nasty speakers. They can tell you a lot about your balance.
Also, the more you mix, the more you know what your speakers sound like.
Quote:
I have been working on this project for some time
Take a break, work on something else for a while!! :-)
Feb 02, 2013 03:33 am I have been reading stuff on harmonic balancing which dB Masters suggested and I think I might be onto something... I have been messing around with the settings I had on Ozone 5 and realized that I might have misused some of the tools that come with that program. I am still working on it though and haven't been able to solve the issue yet...
My studio monitors are M Audio's DSM3 monitors. The room that I mix in is approx. 11'x11'. Since the speakers have bass ports at the back I placed them 2' away from the back wall. They are 48" apart. The only concern I have is the point where I listen to is close to the center of the room.
The inconsistency of how the low end on my mix sounds from speaker to speaker as opposed to the professional mixes I compare to gets me thinking that I am doing something wrong.
Feb 04, 2013 01:49 am 11x11... An *incredibly* difficult space in any book (I was in a similarly sized room for a short time while this room was under construction and they were the most difficult months of my life - And that was with a diaphragmic ceiling and a dozen broadband traps).
The sweet spot (if you can even call it that) is 4.18 feet from the wall. The *WORST* spot in the room is ONE FOOT AWAY from the BEST spot in the room. Probably a 40-45dB difference in some frequencies (unless you have no drywall and your studs are filled with OC703 or something, in which you probably have a slightly larger sweet spot and a slightly lower peak-to-null measurement.
Are you "doing something wrong?" Hard to say. Are you "hearing things accurately?" Very likely not. If your speakers are 2' from the front wall (probably a good thing) and your ears are PRECISELY 4.18' away from the rear wall, you're as good as you're going to get in that space.
(HOLY CRAP -- I just spent another 15 minutes typing and it all disappeared up to this point).
Long story short (I just typed the long story, but it's gone for some reason), I'd do everything in my power to get out of that space. You're in an acoustical nightmare of massive (no pun intended) proportions even *WITH* a dozen 4'x2'x4" broadband traps. I noticed you didn't mention any, so I'm assuming they aren't there - and I don't even want to go there.
I mentioned earlier (I think it's still there) that I was in a similarly size (but slightly BETTER as far as ratios are concerned) space with a dozen broadband panels and it was horrible. Absolutely horrible. Not "Hey, you do this for a living and you can say that sort of stuff" horrible, but I mean really, really terrible. Completely unacceptable. The only times I've ever come close to making spaces like that even remotely reasonably was to tear out all the drywall (walls and ceiling) and fill the voids with Roxul or 703/705.
The dozen traps I had made the 40dB null point at the .38 position a 30dB null point. 10dB better for sure -- But still a 30dB null.
Man, the more I think about it, the less I want to think about it.
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Feb 04, 2013 03:14 am MM knows his shizz man. Check out his website on setting up ya rrom, helped me alot.
Im still having bass drum issues tho, i can hear the SOB and it wacked out bass freq's when im NOT directly in front of speakers. In front no chance sounds good. i dunno, tis one of those things i guess. (not to hijack thread tho mate.)
Feb 04, 2013 07:41 am Thanks MassiveMaster; the new information about my room gave me a lot to think about... probably the best solution would be to find a another room that I can carry all my equipment to mix my songs.
So what I get from this is that if the length and width of the room are the same then there is a huge issue with the sweet spot that you use when mixing.
Feb 04, 2013 09:13 am Any square is nasty. The only thing nastier would be a cube (11x11x11). But squares, rooms with perfectly even modes (10x20, etc.), just don't even waste your time IME... At least not if you're "really trying" (for lack of a better term).
There are ways to *fix* squares (or at least make them marginally usable) -- But they consist of fairly major construction...
Feb 04, 2013 10:18 am Would an option like using Focusrite's VRM give me a little more perspective in my mixes?? I know its not ideal but listening both with my current monitor setup with the combination of headphones with VRM help me make better decisions in my mixes? I am just thinking out loud here...
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
Feb 04, 2013 01:52 pm Further to what the big boys are saying....
What they are talking about is room modes and fundamental frequencies. If you google "room modes" you will find that a cube is the worst shape because it will compound fundamental frequencies.
lmgtfy.com/?q=%22room+mode%22
J-botByte-MixerMember
Since: Dec 04, 2007
Feb 04, 2013 03:01 pm Here is a calculator I thought was pretty interesting. It looks to be pretty accurate, and could certainly help find the ballpark of the problems.
www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm
Also, as a pairing, the absorption coefficients page.
www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm
Enter the LWH in feet/inches (or metric if you prefer) and calculate.
It shows problem areas, and towards the bottom, more technical details. Granted this takes the bare bones room shape. It does not account for materials the room is constructed from, or placement of objects inside that room. It merely calculates modes based on room dimensions.
As for the arbitrary graph at the bottom, the smoother the curve the better. For emphasis I did punch in the numbers for a cube, and the curve was a wrinkled mess. 'twas horrible" I punched in the numbers for my own room (which is not quite square, but not far off) The curve was much smoother, but there was still some slight wiggle in the bottom.
It also gives you info on which frequencies the room mode dominates, which have the diffusion/diffraction dominating, and which have the reflections dominating. It looked pretty useful, so I thought I'd pop it up.
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Feb 04, 2013 09:33 pm even if ya bass traps in ya room kinda make the room a square with 45deg corners?
my roof is slanted tho.
Feb 05, 2013 08:55 am The calculator is great!!!
cooloFrisco's Most UnderratedMember
Since: Jan 28, 2003
Feb 06, 2013 12:37 pm Another perspective from a non pro:
We are not all able to get perfect listening environments, so we have to work with what we got. What I've done in the past is listen to professionally produced songs on the same system that I will be mixing on. I get a feel of how that song sounds in my mixing environment. Then I try to adjust my mix to sound similar to the pro reference song. The more you get used to your spot, the less you have to do this. But it gives a good starting point. Sometimes I'll even put the reference song in an unused track in my mix and solo it so I can A/B it with my mix, so I don't have to rely on memory as much.
Feb 11, 2013 06:35 pm I think a fair bit to do with getting a good bass sound is actually attributable to the room you are monitoring in when doing your mixing. Having monitors set up correctly and in atreated room can help you hear what is "really there", and not the anomalies of the room you are listening in. When this is sorted it becomes easier to work on a mix with more confidenc ein what you are hearing in the low end. Perhaps you may find the following article on setting up your monitors and room helpful?
rocksuresoundz.com/2013/0...-or-edit-suite/
