Noobie looking to dive into DAW - Need advice for my goals.
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Posted on Aug 27, 2012 03:50 pm
Modern Growl
Member Since: Aug 27, 2012
Hey Guys
- First Post - I'm a bass player and I'm looking to dive into the world of recording/song writting.
My head is spinning from how many DAW's are out there - I'm hoping you could perhaps point me in the right direction.
I have a $500-$600 budget (to cover interface & software) Win7 user.
I would like to create some drum loops and some chords to practice to - easy part.
Creation of Music & Style:
And I would like to record with tones similar to David Holmes (Oceans 11, 12 & 13 Soundtracks)
Similar to these:
....Radiohead, Experimental, etc... Bass (me playing) centered groove style music. I'm not heavy into techno/club stuff/synth stuff...
I would like to dive into one decent DAW and stick with it. I'm hoping to get one that has decent out of the box samples & loops, along with a variety of plug ins. Also the ability to EQ, edit, compression, etc.... is all a want.
So far:
- Sony Acid looks like it kinda hits all head (but why do I get the feeling I couldn't publish my work without breaking some Sony copyrights? Am I wrong?)
- Pro Tools (Express version??) is on the Radar, full version is a bit out of my price range and I still need to buy an interface.
- FL Producer version looks like one to consider too.
- Others?? I'm open to others as well if they are the best solution.
For the style of music I described above - what DAW would you recommend (and interface) in the $500 price range total?
Thanks much and I look forward to being apart of the community :)
Matthew
PS - I want to do it once, and do it right... but I don't have a $1000 budget :(
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Aug 27, 2012 03:51 pm Firstly, welcome to HRC...we are glad to have ya.
You might to well served, at this stage, in looking into Reaper www.reaper.fm as it's a great tracking application, it handles MIDI and audio, VST plugins, virtual instruments and oh so much more...and it's free to try "nagware"...a purchase is $60 for a hobby user...best bang for the buck I have ever seen. I have used 'em all at some point or another and have settled back into Reaper quite happily...there are many folks here using it as well.
As far as the interface, how many tracks/instruments do you plan on every doing at once? Is it just you or do you have more people? That would determine, in part, what direction to go.
Aug 27, 2012 04:06 pm It would be just me so having a multi interface isn’t needed. All other sounds I would need to pull from the DAW.
Posted examples of the music composition I'm going after above.
I’m sure I’ll brand out – but that’s the goal for now and that’s my style of bass playing.
Aug 27, 2012 04:08 pm I've read of a lot of Reaper fans. Right now, I know nothing.
But I just want to do this once and do it right... learn 1 DAW and get it down. If that means spending a few bucks for the solution for my goals - I'm fine with that.
Aug 27, 2012 04:19 pm Reaper is great, and a great place to start...when it comes to tracking apps, most work in very similar fashion. If I was you I would concentrate more and buying a quality interface...you need one with audio and midi inputs...I use a Line 6 KB37...two audio inputs and mic inputs, full amp, preamp and speaker modeling (recording bass direct into the KB37 works great with the right bass amp modeling)...and the KB37 has full midi and a midi controller.
www.zzounds.com...item--LINPSKB37
By no means saying it's the only option, but it's worked well for me.
Aug 27, 2012 04:50 pm So you think Reaper is a full on solution that I wont want to jump ship to another? like... I just looked at Ableton - and that looks very promising. Shows all the instruments/sounds it offers.
Wish the Reaper site showed you that... it gives off a "cheap" feeling. But again... I'm not in the know. Does Reaper offer a diverse sounds that I'm after (given in my examples above) ?
Also - the KB37 - it looks like it does more then just record. What other things can I do with that, other then record bass?
FWIW - My amp has a pretty good DI output.
Aug 27, 2012 04:54 pm I've done most anything I ever do, with Reaper, recording guitar, bass, vocals, sequencing synths, drums, etc...you can add effects, mixdown mixes, I haven't found anything that I can't do, that I could with any other tracker, to me it's a full package...
the KB can record anything, guitar, bass, vocals, microphones...it can model preamps, amp heads and speaker cabinets, the controller is programmable...it's a cool package.
That said, I am not a synth guru by any stretch, so I may not know of some limitations that a more experienced sound designer may know...
But I am just saying what I use, there is no shortage of opinions out here... :-)
Aug 27, 2012 06:16 pm Deleted By Modern Growl
Aug 27, 2012 07:41 pm I'm not huge on amp modeling.... but the keys did interest me in looking a bit further
Ok, let me know if I have this straight.
Reaper will have WAV files for me to loop (say drums), but they will just repeat and repeat. If I wanted to create a fill, I would have to find a WAV file or create a fill myself with something like this:
www.musiciansfriend.com/k...midi-controller
Correct?
And I would need to record my Bass, and any MIDI instrument like the above one, with something a USB Interface... something like this:
www.musiciansfriend.com/p...th-pro-tools-se
Correct?
Aug 27, 2012 08:27 pm If you want to loops drums, create fills and all that, I'd strongly suggest you using a drum machine plugin (I use BFD Eco) and sequence them with MIDI and not even deal with a wave file...but yes, you can record, or import wav fills, splice them up into measures, copy, paste them in any order/arrangement you want...
With bass, just play your drum sequence and play over it, recording it on a different track. if you mess up once verse, copy a good verse, and paste it over the bad one...there are loads of ways to deal with it...
Aug 27, 2012 08:48 pm ^ Thanks for the input once again!!
I just learned that Reaper doesn't come with any sounds/loops/etc... nothing ??
I would want a DAW that has something to start with...
based on what I've explained so far, what would you recommend?
Cubase, FL, PT (PT seems hard to learn?), Sony Acid ?
Looking for ease & flexibility with some compression as well if possible.
Aug 27, 2012 09:34 pm Of the bigger players in the space I have always found Cakewalk Sonar the easier to use...but still, I would suggest you not pick your tracker by the bundled loops that come with it...tracker apps and loops are two different products...manufacturers may bundle them together sometimes, as Cakewalk and Sony do...but before committing to buying anything for any big amount of money I'd suggest a couple things...maybe download the free trials of the one's you are interested, and also, keep in mind when it comes to samples, loops and effect plugins...there are untold numbers of free options that are great quality available all over the internet....ya just gotta search for 'em.
www.kvraudio.com/ is always interesting in that regard.
Aug 27, 2012 09:39 pm Thanks again. Like I said, I'm a total noob but I'm starting to understand.
Are drum machines like Groove Agent, or the one you recommended... do they work on any DAW ?
Aug 27, 2012 09:43 pm You need to look at what type of device they are..."VST" is the commonly accepted standard for plugins and virtual instruments...virtual instruements (softsynths, drum machines, etc) are sometimes referred to as VSTi. If your tracker supports VST (which most do that have been mentioned here) and the addon plugin you are looking at is VST, then yes, they will work together.
Groove Agent 3 is VST.
Aug 27, 2012 10:07 pm Thanks... all making sense now. This all seems like a very free, put the puzzle pieces together as you wish sorta thing.
Plug ins... and use Reaper, or Cakewalk, etc... as your DAW.
Cool Cool.
Whats up w/ Groove Agent 3 not being anywhere? I found it on the Steinberg site but its not for sale in the US ??
Also, since Reaper doesn't have any sounds/plug ins... what would you recommend... getting that and hunting down files?
Or getting Sony Acid Music Studio 9 which is cheap $65 bucks - which has 3000 files pre-packaged?
If you were in that situation, what would you do? (or go with another DAW completely?)
J-botByte-MixerMember
Since: Dec 04, 2007
Aug 27, 2012 10:25 pm Just to chime in on the drum software VSTi real quick:
The one I use most often, and I find to be a great tool for creating scratch tracks and mock drum performances, (and it's also great to jam with) is Rayzoon's Jamstix. www.rayzoon.com/ It's about $100, but you get a lot of power with it. Several different Drummer AI models, a few decent acoustic sounds which you can mix and match to create a bit of a franken-kit, and the ability to directly edit the drum sequences via mouse if need be. (fair warning, apparently their website now has a built-in sound player, so you may want to pause, or listen to the examples, but it's there, just FYI)
Though I don't really go that deep myself, I pretty much construct a song, set the styles and the drummers, time signature, choose a kit with the sound I want, tweak the built-in mixer, and let it go as I play my keys.
It can also be set to listen on midi input, or audio input as well. You can insert the included audiom8 on a track, or multiple tracks, or the master, and the drummer performance will change responses based on the audio it hears.
It is a fairly deep bit of software as far as drum programming goes.
Oh, and I'm also a reaper user. I just bought the hobby/small-business license last month, and just had my first live session a couple weeks ago. (which I'm now finishing up adjusting the mixes)
Anyway, I was a newb too about 4 or 5 years ago when I joined this forum. Now, I think I'm graduated to at least Rookie status, haha! :D
But yeah, as I generally tell people, try the demos. Most of the DAWs out there perform the same basic functions: recording, mixing, and editing. The main differences are what bells and whistles (read: software instruments or samples) come with it, and the project workflow. Most all DAWS are capable of mixing down audio into WAV and MP3 formats, as well as being able to import those (or MIDI data) into a track.
So, try out the demos. More than what comes with it, see which one you feel the most comfortable working with, and what you feel to be intuitive and easy to get around in, and get stuff done. Set up a project, record a few scratch tracks, see how easily you can set stuff up, make changes, load a software VST plug-in and mess with it, etc. Whichever one you feel the most comfortable with, go with it.
Aug 27, 2012 10:35 pm ^^ Thanks. Yeah, that looks cool - I'll look more into it.
What about a plug in for other sounds (if you listen to that first youtube track) - that should give you an idea of what I'm after.
All sorts of stuff... is there a plug in out there that handles lots of different tones like that, or is it a hunting game?
J-botByte-MixerMember
Since: Dec 04, 2007
Aug 27, 2012 11:04 pm That can be a bit of a hunting game. I tend to read reviews/opinions and see what's what over around the KVRAudio forums, and this site: bedroomproducersblog.com/free-vst-plugins/ I find the person's blog to be pretty informative, and he covers a lot of ground on the Free VST/software side of things.
On the music, some of what I'm hearing is glitch and synth-related, but there's some funky keys going on too. I'm not sure if there is a full-featured product, other than the larger libraries like NI Kontakt, or IK Multimedia's Sampletank, and similar stuff to that. They can be a bit pricey, but I think at least some things you can get a-la-cart. They do have free "player" versions that have some pretty good usable sounds included. That might be a good starting point.
I'm sure you could run some tracks through a Glitch plug-in
(like this one, which is free) illformed.org/plugins/glitch/ to get some of those glitchy sounding tones.
I try to get by with as much free software as I can, honestly, so I'm constantly on the lookout for newer and better stuff as some of the free or open-source developers get better stuff out there. As I mentioned on another thread, one of my favorite series of FX VST plug-ins are Bootsy's plug-ins over here: varietyofsound.wordpress.com/ He has quite a few tools. And for being freebies, I think they are quite good at what they do.
Aug 28, 2012 08:59 am Thanks - great info once again. I looked at Sampletank... looks interest but at a cost. I'll have to decide if I want to hunt or just buy. I think I could get Sampletank, EZdrummer & that would pretty much take care of everthing (with me playing bass), no? Or at least it would cover alot of ground?
One question regarding DAW's. If I have a sample of say... horns and they are in the key of G minor, can Reaper (or other DAW's) alter the key so they fit the tune? Like if i wanted that same sound sample but in the key of D7 ?
Aug 28, 2012 09:45 am Also - getting back to choosing a DAW... for the first youtube sample provided above - which do you feel would be best?
I did a bit of research and some say Acid is a good looper, while Reaper isn't quite geared towards loops.
I'm not even sure what the first youtube sample falls under... but what DAW do you feel would be easiest to create that type of music?
I'm open to all at this point.
Aug 28, 2012 09:50 am You are incorrectly lumping DAWs into groups by genre...a DAW is a digital version of a mixing console and a multi-track tape deck for recording...you don't select different mixers and tape decks for a particular type of music do you?
It's not about genre or style, it's about comfort in the application and ability to use it. Though yes, there are subtle differences, and you may well have hit one that does matter.
That being said Acid is geared toward looping in it's proprietary audio format for loops (or it used to be, not sure these days), if you are going to be using loops, it might be a good way to go...I will say though, last time I used Sony's tracking application (Acid/Vegas same interface back then) it was not very intuitive...
Additionally, in that vein of apps, I have always found FL to be quick and easy to work with...and have heard it's only gotten better over the years since I have used it.
Aug 28, 2012 10:03 am Understood. I know there is no one that is genre specific. I was told that the youtube example I posted seems very “loopy” and DAW’s like Acid & FL are more “loop orientated”, while Reaper can do the same thing but goes about things differently.
Just trying to figure out what the easiest DAW would be for the above example. Do you feel its “loopy” and I should go w/ something like FL… ?
I’m sorry, there’s just SO many DAW’s out there… while I learned a lot in this thread – I’m still stuck on which DAW would be the most intuitive for me.
Aug 28, 2012 10:07 am I won't offer specific opinions, as I don't use loops, actually, I dislike loops...I just know Acid was made for looping, FL was originally made for creating them, I've used both, I like FL better...but I am no expert in the area.
Aug 28, 2012 10:58 am Thanks. And regardig key changes?
Original question:
One question regarding DAW's. If I have a sample of say... horns and they are in the key of G minor, can Reaper (or other DAW's) alter the key so they fit the tune? Like if i wanted that same sound sample but in the key of D7 ?
Is it simple or compliated? Do I have do this by ear? Cents ?
