Small time live sound set-up
Home > Home Recording Forum > Live Sound Reinforcement > Small time live sound set-up
Posted on Mar 04, 2011 11:16 pm
TLE sound guy
small time sound guy
Member Since: Mar 04, 2011
How would I get better, more or add to my sound? I am relatively new to this and would like some suggestions.
Right now I have:
a Peavey 20ch non-powered mixer, left and right out into a Nady 2-channel 15 band eq with 22awg xlr cables.
From eq - I have a snake cable 16awg, ran up to stage. I have 22awg xlr cables from sanke to the 1600 Peavey Amp.
Then to finish, I have 22awg speakon cables to my Peavey 5G's.
Now what? Can I use a Y cable to split the speaker cables to add a sub or more speakers? Should I add equipement? Any advice would be more than needed,
Thank You,
Eric
[ Back to Top ]
Mar 04, 2011 11:22 pm Well, like I said, your going to need larger speaker cable to handle the amount of power form your amp.
Second, is getting a passive, or active crossover. (Depending on budget.)
And the last thing is the addition of another amp.
This will increase the headroom of the PA, and give you better control of the over all sound of your PA.
Mar 04, 2011 11:26 pm what is the difference of a pssive or active crossover? Does the crossover add inputs also? Should the extra amp be the same power? and, if you got the time, i got the questions. lots of em.
Mar 04, 2011 11:27 pm ooops, I just checked, I got 16awg to speakers.
Mar 04, 2011 11:31 pm Not a problem.
A passive crossover has no adjustments. It is a fixed crossover point.
An active crossover is flexible as to where the crossover point will be.
Here is a link to a bunch of active crossovers.
www.parts-express.com/wiz...ad=7584996313.1
Now, a crossover does not add any inputs to your system. Being that it is on the output of the signal chain.
Mar 04, 2011 11:39 pm ok, I'm kinda lost on the sends then. I have four sends. What do I send and from what to what? then the question of monitor sends comes in too.
Also, does a compressor/limiter make a vocal sound that much better? or is it a waste of meony on a small system like mine?
(I am upgrading my mics to Shure Beta 58a's)
Mar 04, 2011 11:46 pm The two channel outs from eq to the crossover, then the four sends from it?
(I have four sends on snake)
Mar 04, 2011 11:49 pm Oh, I see what your looking for.
You still are using your Left/Right sends from your board. That does not increase. The crossover will have four outputs to it at that point.
Low/High Left. And Low/High Right.
For monitor sends, you just use the Aux out and send them to your EQ's, then to your amps, then to your monitors.
Well, compression will help vocals in loud situations. As a compressor will move the sound wave closer to 1khz. Which will make the vocal pop a little. And can help you keep very dynamic vocalist in check. As you can keep the same levels on the vocals between a whisper and a scream.
I love the Shure Beta 58a's. Great mic for live! :)
Mar 04, 2011 11:50 pm You can always put the crossover down where the amps are. This way your not eating up snake channels.
Mar 04, 2011 11:55 pm OK. Let me try this. Board L/R to one channel on eq. Mon (1/4") to other channel on eq. those two sent through snake, then board mains to crossover and the monitor into one channel on one amp, the croossovers come out to other three amp channels?
Mar 05, 2011 12:02 am Well, close.
Board main Left to EQ channel one. Board main Right to EQ channel two.
Aux one out, to EQ channel three. (Yeah, you should have a channel of EQ for each output.)
Aux two to EQ channel four.
EQ channel one out, to Crossover channel one. EQ channel two to Crossover channel two.
Crossover channel one Low output, to Channel one of amp one.
Crossover channel one High output, to Channel two of amp one.
Crossover channel two Low output, to Channel one of amp two.
Crossover Channel two High output, to channel two of amp two.
EQ channel three to amp channel one of amp three.
EQ channel four to amp channel two of amp three.
Mar 05, 2011 12:13 am A-Ha! I have a two channel eq, Now I know I need another. And only one amp and need three? OK.
4 speakers (2 and 2 subs), and 2 monitors this way. O.K.
How do I get 4 monitors from two aux?
Here's us: My wife sings (TiffanyLeeEntertainment.com if wondering), and a four piece band. Not huge shows, just a few hundred peple at live events like fairs and festivals and some upper class restaurants and clubs. Need to figure this out. Already booking.
Mar 05, 2011 12:14 am Also, should the subs go to the low or high channels of the crossovers? matter?
Mar 05, 2011 12:17 am Sorry to say, that there is not a way of getting 4 independent monitor mixes from only two aux sends.
Now, you can put two monitors on the same amp channel. Nothing wrong with that. The only thing is that your both hearing the same thing out of the wedges.
Mar 05, 2011 12:18 am Y cable to do that? split from amp?
Mar 05, 2011 12:21 am Just about all speakers have two inputs to them. They are wired in parallel. So, you can run one cable from the amp into one of the inputs. And then take another cable from the second jack, and run that to the other speaker.
Mar 05, 2011 12:29 am Do I run the subs on the same sides or go A-B or 1-2 and split them with speakers?
Is all this way balanced? and what are the Ohms n stuff?
O.K. I will read your article tomoro, I do really, really appreciate the information and advice Rob. I gotta go for tonight, but look for more questions on this thread as I have many, many more if you don't mind?
Mar 05, 2011 12:33 am I don't mind at all.
For your system that you have now. At least for the mains. I would go one speaker, one amp channel. If you ever to decide to increase the number of speakers that you have for each side. Say 2 5G's per side of the stage, then you can jump the speakers together, same way as I told you for the monitors. Or even two subs per side of the stage. You can jump them in the same way.
Mar 05, 2011 09:53 pm O.K. Questions on speakers. What does all this mean really in lamens terms?
Back panel:
Max Power Impedence Crossover
1,000 Peak 8 Ohms 1800Hz
500 program
250 RMS
(44.7V RMS)
Normal Bi-Amp
Full Range High Low
L / R ?
Mar 05, 2011 09:54 pm Also, what other speakers would you add other than another Peavey SP-5G to each side?
Mar 05, 2011 10:46 pm Well, it looks like your top boxes are already set up for bi amp. Meaning that if you don't have a crossover already........... Your only getting the 15" and not the horn.
This also means that you need a crossover that does three way. And yet another amp. So, now you need an amp channel for the horns, the 15", and if you add a sub. Then yet another amp channel for them.
It's stating that the crossover point between the horn and the 15" is 1.8khz. And that the total box can handle a 1000 watt peak burst of power. That is the 1,000 peak statement. Now it is also saying that it can run all day on 500 watts. That is the program, and for just to get the speakers up and running at a normal range, you need at least 250 watts.
If your speakers have 1/4" inputs to them, then the High/Low is referring to which driver (Driver is the term that is used when referring to each speaker in a box) your addressing. So the High input is just the horn, and the low input is just the 15".
What ever you do, do not put an amp channel on the High input without a crossover set to 1.8khz!! If you send what is called Full Range to the horn. (Which is all frequencies) This will cause the horn to move farther then what it is designed to move. And will cause damage!!
So, as it stands right now, you do need a crossover, and a second amp channel just to run one box.
Now as far as what speakers to put next to your Peaveys. Another set of SP-5G's. You need to keep it consistent. A different set of boxes will have different characteristics. And will cause phase shifting, and lobeing. Neither is good.
Mar 05, 2011 11:04 pm So, I can run a 1/4" into the high and low, or just one into the full range? Can I use the parrallel thing to chain two of them?
Also, my amp has ratings of 530 @ 4 and 800 @ 2 Ohms. What is this all about? They are different than speakers. How does this work?
Mar 05, 2011 11:20 pm OK. If you have an input that is marked "Full Range" Then you need to plug into that with only one amp channel. This means that you have a passive crossover network that is inside of the box. And is set to 1.8k for the horn. So, you are safe there.
Now, if it does not have a second jack that is marked "Full Range" then you need the "Y" cable that you were talking about earlier. Just make sure that it is not 22 gauge wire. You need something a little heavier to handle the power.
Your amp ratings are telling you what the power output is going to be @ a certain ohm load. Remember, the lower the ohm load, the higher the current.
In your case, if you are putting two of the SP-5G's on the same side of the amp, using the "Y" cable, will make the total ohm load of that side of the amp to a 4 ohm load. Now, your speakers can run on 500 ohms all day long. but, here is the catch. You are running in parallel. So, the wattage is split between the speakers. Now you are only getting 250 watts to each of the speakers. That is a little light for them. Speakers act like a giant sponge when it comes to wattage. Two 500 watt speakers now need 1000 watts to run at normal levels.
Now if you are only putting one speaker for one side of an amp, your fine. The ohm load is a little heavier then what you have listed. 8 is larger then 4. So, it won't be 530 watts coming out of your amp at that point. It will be more like 375. Which is still a little light for your speakers.
So, bottom line. I would suggest a bigger amp for running your speakers. Now, should you ever want to run a three way system, I would keep that amp around to run the horns for when ever you decide to upgrade your system.
Mar 05, 2011 11:29 pm one more time then.
1/4" into full range is fine if running one amp channel to it.
Same speakers if adding more to stage.
don't need crossover just right now.
All together, I'm getting about 350-375 watts of live sound?
For lighter venues, could I run one speaker as a full range and then another at the low range without having to mess with a crossover or extra channels? I know it would sound unbalanced, but for something outdoors and far away, this might be an option for the low end bass right?
Also, running this way (just the two on separate channel at full range) does the 350-375 watts = the 99dB (spl) they are rated for?
Mar 05, 2011 11:34 pm Give me a minute. I have to look at the back of these speakers. Because I'm a little confused by some of your questions right now.
Low usually means "Low end" As in just one driver. In your case, just the 15".
But for right now. Yes. Just one 1/4" cable for the speaker to the "Full Range".
And yes, you are only running around 350-375 watts. And no, it will not get to the 99 dB spl with only that much wattage. You would need the 500 watts for that.
Mar 05, 2011 11:37 pm Is this what the back of your speakers look like?
Mar 05, 2011 11:37 pm sorry, gotta go for tonight. More questions to come. Thanks Rob!
Mar 05, 2011 11:39 pm no. I have older ones. If you look back in the thread (mar5 9:53 pm) the details are almost exact. It has two inputs under the full range that is why i asked l/r?
Mar 05, 2011 11:41 pm Max Power .............Impedence.......... Crossover
1,000 Peak ...............8 Ohms ..............1800Hz
500 program
250 RMS
(44.7V RMS)
Normal ....................Bi-Amp
Full Range .........High ........Low
(two inputs).........input........input
Mar 05, 2011 11:42 pm Thanks, will check your advice tomoro.
Mar 05, 2011 11:48 pm Right. that is what I thought.
So, you have two Full Range inputs. And you can run speaker cable from the amp to one of the full range inputs, and then parallel to the second speaker by running another speaker cable, from the second Full Range connector. That way you don't need the "Y" cable.
So, the jack that is marked "Low", does not mean low level. But, the low end. Meaning the 15" driver that is in the SP-5G. And conversely, the "High" input is just the horn in your SP-5G.
Mar 06, 2011 09:45 am If I get a high wattage amp, I can run two 5g's chained with two more 5g's without using a crossover or extra equipment? I don't know the formula to figure this out, so what would be a good wattage to get for this application? 2500? 2500/2/2 = 625 per speaker for all four?
right now, the only reason for a crossover would be to add subs, right? would it be smart to get a higher watt amp for the subs too? And the subs really wouldn't need to be ran through an eq or should I for the sound enhancement? What should I look for whaen shopping for the crossover to do this?
I wouldn't need a crossover if I am just going to run mon into eq into amp and out to chain two mons together? the amp I have would be good for this right? Peavey 1600 (which is 530 @ 4 Ohms)
Also, how will I know how or where should I look or what to look for to figure out how much an eq will +/- volume? dB gain?
Thanks.
Mar 06, 2011 11:38 am I just tried to diagram this. How about.......
............Instruments into board channels;
............Lead and Harmony mic into compressor (2 channels);
Then.....compressor channels back out to board (2 diferent ch);
Then.....Board L/R into EQ channels 1-2 (or A-B);
Then.....Mon outs to 2 ch. EQ;
Then.....Mains EQ channels sent thru snake A & B;
Then.....Mon EQ channels sent thru snake C & D;
so far?
Then.....snake ch A into crossover ch A;
Then.....snake ch B into crossover ch B;
Then.....snake ch C (MON 1) into Amp 1 - ch 1;
Then.....snake ch D (MON 2) into Amp 1 - ch 2;
still o.k.? (this is where it gets comfusing to me)
Then....Xover ch 1 - low out (main speak 1) to Amp 2 - ch 1;
Then....Xover ch 1 - high out (main speak 2) to Amp 2 - ch 2;
Then....Xover ch 1 - low sub mono out to Amp 3 - ch 1; or
...........Xover ch 2 - low out (sub) to Amp 3 - ch 1
Am I even close???????????????????? Eric
Mar 06, 2011 12:54 pm You got it! :)
For mono sub, you can skip the Xover 2 output. Only if you running stereo sub do you need it.
But, I think you compressor will work better if you insert it on to the channel. If you take a stereo 1/4" cable to 2 mono 1/4" ends, and run the mono end to the compressor, then the stereo end to the insert of the channel. This way you won't have any phase issues between the dry and effected channels of the vocal.
Here is what an insert cable looks like.
www.google.com/products/c...ed=0CFIQ8gIwBg#
Mar 06, 2011 08:30 pm If the compressor only has 2 channels, in and out, how would I run both 1/4" into it for one channel? or do I have to use both channel outs into one board channel?
Mar 06, 2011 08:35 pm O.K. for Xovers -
I'm trying to stay focused on Peavey as 95% of all my equipment is already Peavey, but need to keep budget in mind and don't want to buy an overkill crossover. Which one would be best for what I need? (I think you know my equipment better than I do)
Peavey PV 23XO Stereo 2-Way/Mono 3-Way Crossover
Peavey PV 35XO Stereo 2/3-Way/Mono 4/5-Way Crossover
Mar 07, 2011 02:33 pm The 23/XO. I don't think your ever going to need more then a 3 way PA.
As for the Comp. The stereo end of the cable goes into the board. And just so you know, all boards now a days are tip send. Meaning the tip of the TRS (Stereo 1/4") is sending the signal to the compressor. The tip goes to the mono 1/4" cable that goes to the in of the comp. Then the other mono 1/4" cable goes from the out of the comp, to the ring of the TRS (The same stereo 1/4"). And that is how an insert cable works.
Mar 07, 2011 08:09 pm O.k. You lost me. the stereo (the single end) of the Y cable goes into the insert on the channel. One end of the mono goes in the in of the comp. The other side of the mono goes......WHERE?!? the ring of the trs? I don't get it Rob.
Think of this as "live sound for Dummies". You may have to explain it alittle more. plug what into where. I don't get the ring thing.
P.s. at a show today, my 4 month old amp wouldn't power up. it has power (by the internal l.e.d. light), but wouldn't turn on. I had to take it into the peavey dealer. Can anyone say...warrantee?!?
Mar 07, 2011 09:54 pm OMG, just realized what you said. Mono in and mono out of comp. stereo in to insert on channel. DUH. If comp has two channel, can compress two mics right?
Mar 07, 2011 11:07 pm You got it! :)
Mar 07, 2011 11:27 pm i got a question about board operation. on a Peavey PV20 USB - what is the difference between the FX dB and FX send knobs?
Mar 07, 2011 11:34 pm Not 100% sure on that. But, I would assume that the dB is the output to the mains, and the gain is the input gain.
Mar 07, 2011 11:38 pm the fx send in in line with the ef row for the channels, and the dB know is up next to the efx kind knob (the one you can switch to the different kinds of efs)
the db send the efx to the mains? and the other is for efx for the whole board (each channel x all of them)?
Mar 07, 2011 11:44 pm Can you send efx to monitors? My wife likes to hear the efx, says it helps her with the higher notes. I usually hook up a smaller speaker with efx as a monitor, but get alot of feedback. How would I fix this?
Mar 07, 2011 11:48 pm On a side note, I record at home using our small PA head that rca sends into my sound card with Cool Edit Pro program. I can only record one track at a time, or mix them all with the mixer aand record all at once. But then I can't edit each track separately.How do I record, multi tracks separately? (without going gung-ho with the budget?)
Mar 08, 2011 12:02 am I don't know if you have any direct outs on that board or not. But, if you do. Then that is how you can get the multi track from it.
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Mar 08, 2011 12:47 pm Rob, you are like a superman of advice and knowledge. I love you man ;)
Mar 08, 2011 03:08 pm I don't have an direct outs. Is there a piece of equipment that hooks up or something? Like hook up everything like hooking up a mixing board, but it goes directly into the computer? and does anyone know more about the "Cool Edit Pro" program?
Mar 08, 2011 09:35 pm I try Cpt. :)
TLE, I have to say that the recording end of things is really not my forte'. Someone, such as CptTripps would be a better person to talk about different hook ups for Cool Edit Pro. You can hit up the Recording section and someone will be able to get right back to you.
Mar 09, 2011 11:47 am I do appreciate everyhting that you have said Rob, and believe me, I was listening! I have gained a much better idea of what I'm doing. I'm sure I will have more questions so please take a look at this thread now and then. God Bless!
Mar 09, 2011 08:52 pm You got it!
Mar 11, 2011 10:10 pm DBX is a very fine brand. I think that you'll be happy with it.
Funny, I just log on when you posted. How's that for timing? :)
JovhatoMusic is everythingMember
Since: Apr 01, 2010
Mar 12, 2011 04:34 pm That's the comp I'm using and I'm happy with it.
Mar 12, 2011 05:56 pm Thanks for the advice.
Mar 12, 2011 08:34 pm Well, they work. Not the best sounding compressor on Earth. And the silkscreen does not match what the compressor is doing. But they do work.
Mar 12, 2011 10:59 pm So what would I be looking for? and I don't get the silkscreen thing...
Mar 13, 2011 12:13 am In other words, the markings on the front of the unit, don't match what it is actually doing.
DBX is just fine. If your looking for high end, look at Avalon, D.W. Fearn, Compex,or Focusright.
Mar 13, 2011 11:33 am thanks. I'll look around.
