How do producers get those hiphop drums to bang so hard without clipping?
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Posted on May 31, 2010 03:00 am
bahcoach
Member Since: Dec 26, 2007
anyone with any idea how to get drums to bang hard without clipping and sound so big. eg Dr. Dre tracks
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cruxTypo SzarMember
Since: Jul 04, 2002
May 31, 2010 06:44 am Well most of those drums r sampled or r electronic to begin with so u wouldnt have to tweak them so much, u would just need to pick one that already has wat ur looking for
beyond that, big pounding kicks r all about compression, getting as much beef into the hit as possible. Two major things to remember however r that the kick can only bang as hard as the track allows, that is u have to make room for it to come in strong by moving out things like Bass and Vox. The second thing to remember is that actually backing off ur big kick dreams in the initial stages will help alot, compress the kick to an ok strength while leaving a good amount of headroom before clipping, if u dont feel like its enough just listen to ur tracks REALLY loud and ull get an impression that its doing wat it needs to do. If ur whole song has good headroom with a strong kick in between when u get to the master and it all gets pumped up, THEN u get to have a massive kick that isnt blowing holes in ur speaker.
Jun 01, 2010 10:32 pm Gclip , some sort of bass boost or saturator, maximizer maybe like an L3 or izotope
Jun 02, 2010 12:20 am There are a few things you can try, compression being the main one. Also, try boosting around 80hz and rolling it off around 200-250hz. Another thing to try is a plugin from Waves called RBass. It acts kind of like an exciter for bass. It enhances the perceived bass levels without boosting the actual bass levels by adding harmonic frequencies that trick the ear into thinking it's hearing more bass. It's a bit more complicated than that, but that's the jist of it. Check out the manual by clicking the Waves logo on the plugin window to get a more detailed and/or perhaps more accurate description. Personally, I don't usually use it much and I do so sparingly when I do. Always remember to cut your bass in the frequencies that you boost your kick so you don't overlap them and each of them has their own space in the mix. Also, starting with a bangin kick drum is key to getting a bangin kick drum sound. Give the tried and true old school 808 a shot. Good luck.
Jun 04, 2010 05:52 pm I've had a few transient designers in the studio. They're homeless and couch surfing, yet somehow always dressed at the height of fashion.
Jun 04, 2010 05:53 pm Oh yeah, and the processor looks pretty useful too. I'm going to have to give it a try, thanks for the heads up.
Quincysanhttp://www.unitedmusicians.infoContributor
Since: Nov 11, 2007
Jun 10, 2010 09:14 pm Did we already mention using Gated Reverb??!?! That's probably the most intensely heavy drum sound I've played with...
1.) create reverb insert on kick drum, make the verb loud and long...like obnoxious loud and long
2.) Create a Gate insert right below your reverb insert. configure the threshold so that the reverb is cut out at a certain DB level.
It makes the kick sound so BIG! Sounds great on a snare too. Might sound good on toms
Jun 10, 2010 10:05 pm That would sound good, but I'm wondering if it might give it more of a Led Zepplin sound than a Dr. Dre sound. I can't think of any Dre tracks with much reverb on the kick.
Quincysanhttp://www.unitedmusicians.infoContributor
Since: Nov 11, 2007
Jun 11, 2010 12:28 pm I just recorded a sample for you, it's in my profile under "Drums That Band Hard"
Warning my playing is off this morning (haven't had my coffee), and I cut the clip right before an expletive for comedic value.
Let me know if you think that sound could be useful in hip hop, I think it could personally...
cooloFrisco's Most UnderratedMember
Since: Jan 28, 2003
Jun 11, 2010 02:30 pm Quincy, that could be used for hip hop, but it's not the typical sound most people are going for. However, the big verb effect is often used (think Timbaland drum sets), but the reverb tail is shortened considerably. Like a big blast of reverb at the beginning, and then it just stops.
Jun 11, 2010 03:03 pm You can also use only the early reflections (regular, non linear or reverse) and cut the late reverb directly in the reverb settings. No need to add a gate.
Jun 11, 2010 03:52 pm To Quincy, yeah I can definitely hear those drums in a raw *** hip hop track with some grimey distortion guitar samples to help it along. Those drums convey a gritty street type sound that would be excellent in a hip hop song. Not necessarily what this particular person was asking for in this situation, but bad *** nonetheless. They don't sound exactly like Led Zepplin's drums, of course. But they really do have a "When The Levee Breaks" type feel to them, especially if they were slowed down just a touch. Speaking of "When The Levee Breaks", the Beastie Boys sampled those drums along with the guitar riff from Black Sabbath's "Sweet Leaf" for their song "Rhymin & Stealin". Long story short, those might not be the Dr. Dre kick drums that this guy was asking for, but I would LOVE to hear more of the type of "Drums That Bang Hard" in hip hop music today. Take it back 20 years and I can hear the Beastie Boys on that track... fast forward to 2010 and I imagine Tech N9ine just killing that track (just to clarify, by 'killing that track' I mean giving an exceptional performance).
Quincysanhttp://www.unitedmusicians.infoContributor
Since: Nov 11, 2007
Jun 11, 2010 04:22 pm Well if that's not the sound most people are going for...isn't that the sound they SHOULD be going for? It is art after all. Obviously my example doesn't sound like an 808 because it's a kick drum, try the same gated reverb on an 808 and I'm sure the result would be interestingly large with a traditional hip-hop backbone to it, if that's what the client insists on. I'm saying that as a producer, it's ideal to pick clients that offer an artistic vision...if all the vision they have is wrapped up in what's already out there then I guess that's what you'll get done. I think it's helpful for a producer to hear what the client says he or she wants, and offer something that appeals to their concept while ensuring that his or her output won't be confused with 900 other rappers doing the exact same thing. Just food for thought laced with a little creative industry frustration. I totally understand what you're dealing with Cavvy and you're totally right that my example is inappropriate for what your client wants; I was just taking sampled audio and making it BIG. Any other sample will become big with the same techniques. You can buy purple paint, or you can mix red and blue.
I see your point from an engineer's standpoint, "Client wants X, I need to provide X"...but in situations where the engineer is also a producer, like Cavvy, you gotta think outside the bag to differentiate the material. Every hit artist needs an exclusive gimmick to make it stick. Techa-Neena is a perfect example. Gimmicks out the wazzoo! They're all awesome and unique...but a real street rapper might say something along the lines of, "What's up with all the machine gun snare hits and weird clothes and hair and electric guitars? That's not real!" It makes it stick.
@ Laurend: You'll have to forgive me for using a gate to achieve a gated reverb effect...
Jun 11, 2010 05:03 pm I absolutely hear you, Quincysan. The industry really needs some creativity and originality breathed into it and I really like your big kick drum sound idea. Just two clarifications though, this isn't for any client of mine. I make what I feel like making for the most part. For me, if it was all about playing it safe and making beats that are typical and commercial-sounding, then I would just buy some loop sample packs and make audio collages of other peoples' music like so many producers out there do.
I was referring to the original poster bahcoach who said "anyone with any idea how to get drums to bang hard without clipping and sound so big. eg Dr. Dre tracks". Also, the 808 is a sample drum kit which includes the 808 kick drum.
"Cause the 808 kick drum makes the girlies get numb, we're rollin' Rainier and the jealous wanna get some."
IndellableMusic AfficionadoMember
Since: Aug 12, 2008
Jun 18, 2010 02:15 pm Great info - I wish I had it a few months ago when I was mixing our compilation album (my first real mix - I'ma DJ first and foremost, producer second and am hoping to earn a title of legit engineer before not too long).
My brother and I produced the whole album and I recorded and mixed everything. I learned a lot while mixing and have since then. Its boards and advice like this that I love to read. I'm aching to get out of work and go actually try it tonight.
There usually isnt too many people interested in Hip Hop on this board, so I usually keep my questions "non-denominational" if that makes sense. However, if you have a few minutes you can check out www.sleepyhollows.com and hear leaks of all the tracks of the labum - if you want a full copy, just let me know and I'll send you a yousendit link. Please note the snippets are not the final mixed and mastered versions (on purpose).
We, like some of the posts above, give a f*ck about what standard hip hop is "supposed" to sound like. Some is sample free, but some is sampled from Joe Satriani, Pink Floyd, the Beatles, Donald Fagen, you name it ...hell even Barbara Streisand, Cyndi Lauper and Skid Row make an appearance!
I welcome all feedback. There is also pictures and a spoof video showing our set up on the Studio page. I've upgraded to a digital board, proper desk and 2 Mac Monitors since then which has improved the overall layout and feel but you will get the idea of treatments and set up.
Thanks again for the advice on the post.
Jun 18, 2010 03:09 pm Quote:
some is sampled from Joe Satriani, Pink Floyd, the Beatles
Nice! Can't wait to hear it. I'll check it out later since today's my birthday and I'm not spending a lot of time online. Nice studio pics on your photo album there. I just upgraded mine too, don't have the sound treatment outside of the vocal booth set up or the sofa and end tables moved in. The old studio's on youtube.com/cavvystudios and the new one is in my pics here. Looking at your pics, I had 2 observations that might help you out. Your studio monitors seem to be facing straight forward. It's better to have them pointing inward so the soundwaves meet where you're sitting. Meaning, ideally you want to create a triangle about 6' on each side with each monitor being a point of the triangle and the engineer being the third point. Also I noticed a fish tank in one of the pics. If the flourescent lights for the tank are plugged into the same circuit as your gear is, the light could be adding line noise. You might want to record a track of just silence with and without the light plugged in and really scrutinize the track to see if there's a difference. I hope this helps, have fun in the new studio!
Jun 20, 2010 11:42 pm I like how you used that sample from "Jane" for "Need An Army". That track is hot.
IndellableMusic AfficionadoMember
Since: Aug 12, 2008
Jun 21, 2010 06:00 pm Glad you like it! Thats actually my least favorite mix b/c I could never get it to "bang" (ironically enough) the way I imagined it in my head. That song is by far the overwhelming favorite. One of the staff photographers for G-Unit in NY got a hold of it and wants to shoot a video for it - he is trying ot venture into videos, so we'll see. It was featured on www.streetball.com and is getting ready to be featured on a youtube viral video callde "Who Wants To Fight Me?" Should be pretty interesting.
The pics I had on here were old. I am having trouble uploading new ones here but you can see a newer set up at www.sleepyhollows.com/studio.html However, as mentioned above, I've upgraded to a digital board with a proper desk and added a mathcing 22" Mac cinema display - would kill for the one you have - so its even more improved than what is on our website.
The monitors are definitely angled in based on the dimensions of the room and the fish tank is now in the opposite corner on a seperate circuit with no equipment on the same plugs. Thanks for the insight though! Let me know what you think about the album and I'd be happy to send you a copy.
I love the black and white pics of your studio. Cant wait to see a video I built all the accoustics myself for mine and am happy to say that when I had the room reassessed it was dramitically improved. Still could use some more tuning (but thats life I guess). I'd be happy to send you some of the links i used if youre going to do the same thing - I saved myself a few hundred bucks and they weren't that hard.
Happy belated birthday!
Jun 21, 2010 07:16 pm Right on, that'd be cool. But I'm thinking you might have been looking at someone else's photo album because my computer monitor's not that big and I don't have any black and white pics of my studio.
Jun 21, 2010 11:37 pm Live the SPL product is awesome too! It works great. I also use Waves Maxbass for kick sometimes.
Quincysanhttp://www.unitedmusicians.infoContributor
Since: Nov 11, 2007
Jun 22, 2010 02:53 pm I can't track down that Live SPL product. Are you talking about the German company called Sound Performance Lab? I couldn't find anything similar at their website. Yeesh talk about poor branding choice...maybe they'll call their next company Reverb or EQ.
I've been researching this because you guys do have a point, my method for "biggifying" a low frequency signal isn't the only way and there are definitely other biggifying methods out there I haven't tried. Some of them are pretty freaking awesome. From what I can tell, there are three popular ways that bass frequencies (including kick) are biggified:
EQ/Compression tricks: Some plugs are thrown together rip offs that use gimmicky EQ/compression settings that combine to create something you could recreate with plugins you already have with relative ease. Other plugins in this category seem to be carefully researched and executed combinations of EQ, gain, distortion and compression. I think most plugins within the $50-$100 range are going to be an EQ/Compression/etc methods for biggifying bass freqs. Research will tell you whether the specific plugin's pre-sets are of value. Research will also show you that the users of this type of product are into shortcuts, whatever works, and getting a sound without understanding how it's created. If that doesn't bother you, proceed. I'm always open to the possibility of being wrong, but to me it seems most important to understand how a cool sound is achieved so you can tailor it to fit your song perfectly. After all, what in life is perfect right out of the box??? Not much IME...(and if it came right out of a box, why would you want to sell it that way? Slight digression I know) LF Max by Voxengo might be a good example of a usable plugin in this category, it combines these EQ settings with subharmonics...making it more valuable IMO.
Harmonic Frequency Generator: MaxxBass is in this category. RenBass is also in this category, and worth consideration from what I can tell. This category of bass freq biggifier creates harmonic frequencies of a fundamental tone, but does not produce the fundamental tone. No huge bass freqs, but the effect is perceived as bass heavy. Apparently, the result is one that will fool you into hearing frequencies that aren't there. While this is effing SWEET, I don't know that this is the larger than life Dre tone you're looking for...but maybe it is. This would likely serve your mix if you wanted a bigger bass feel, but already have too much activity below 100 Hz in the mix.
Subharmonic Frequency Generator: The DBX 120 appears to be a popular subharmonic generator. It is similar to the harmonic generator in that it creates frequencies, but I believe this type of bass biggifier only creates lower octave frequencies. This would serve your mix well if you REALLY needed more low end in the mix, which you may or may not. Pretty simple in it's operation, it cuts the signal frequency in half and then you mix it in to taste. I'm sure there are reasons to use the DBX 120 instead of just transposing a bass track, but I would start by experimenting with two tracks: one with the natural kick drum, and the second with a detuned kick drum. An entire octave may work, but try a 3rd, 5th and 7th too...would probably sound cool.
However the most compelling biggifying method I read about was very simple and convincing in theory. In your sampler...layer a phat sine wave tone underneath your main bass tone and mix to taste. It won't work on an electric bass performance but that may not be a problem in your studio. Apparently, some producers from 90's rap would stick a 60 hz sine wave through an ENTIRE song to thicken it up. To me...that sounds crazy stupid from a musical standpoint, but it might give the listener an exciting sensation I guess??? The movie Private Parts comes to mind, haha.
Other methods for creating harmonic frequency include gating a sine wave, but you'll have to experiment and reasearch that point on your own if you're interested (probably better and easier to buy MaxxBass or RenBass)
Jun 22, 2010 04:25 pm Another kick drum technique that I forgot to mention which might or might not help bahcoach here (I wonder if he's still reading this) but I figured it's worth mentioning just in case anyone can use the info...
If you're having trouble finding a kick drum that bangs across the lower frequency, meaning if you have one with the right amount of boom, but not enough punch or if you have one with the desired midrange characteristics but it's lacking in the low end...
Try combining the two. Place one right over the other (paying careful attention to frequency accumulation so it's not overdone) and see how that sounds. Sometimes you can create the perfect custom kick drum sound for your needs simply by combining 2 kicks that each have their own desirable sonic elements. This can also help you develop your own big kick drum sound without sounding like you're copying someone else's sound. I hope this helps.
Jul 08, 2010 12:01 am They hire an engineer.
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
Jul 08, 2010 01:11 pm Aren't most hip hop drums sampled (which is what crux said in the second post)? If so, grab BFD and go nuts. Lots of great sound kicks are available. Want to be one of the few and use real drums... get Drumagog and swap out the kick.
el musicoFreeleance Producer/Engineer/GtrMember
Since: Aug 11, 2002
Jul 08, 2010 04:00 pm layer your samples, and use parallel compression
Sep 02, 2010 04:01 am thanx all for ur insights. (start with a very good sample)
- gated reverb
- Parallel compression
- Layering
- eq/compression
Will be trying out all these to see what workx best.
