Guitar Mic Options and Current Record...

J-bot
Byte-Mixer
Member
Since: Dec 04, 2007

Sep 30, 2009 08:02 pm

Heya Fragile, first off welcome to the forums. Got a few questions for ya. First off, let's not kill off the ATM mic just yet. How's your mic setup? How are you positioning the mic in relation to the cab? How far? What angle and height?

Usually when recording distortion coming from the cab, it's a good idea to turn the level down for the sake of the recording. Sure it may sound kickass through the speaker, but once it goes into the mic, distortion is all you hear. A lot of the guitar players around here have dealt with that at some point or another.

Depending on the mic, and whether it needs power or not, I'd send it straight to the interface, and bypass the PA system altogether. The mixer you're using looks like it's geared more for a live setup than a studio recording session, so it might introduce a lot of unwanted noise into the signal. Also, if you're going high-gain, then it's possible that you'll be getting a lot of the room's sound into the mic as well, which can be good or bad depending on the room.

If you want to mic the cab, I'd probably go something Mic -> Preamp -> interface especially if I'm only recording 1 track at a time. Mixers (the cheaper ones anyway) can introduce noise into the signal and degrade the quality. You could also see about going DI from the guitar to the interface, and use amp/cab sims to get the sound you want.

Also, sometimes you have to play with the mic's position to find it's "sweet spot" so you can experiment with the placement, but I'd start off with having it pointed roughly at a 45 degree angle to the cab, angled toward the middle of the cab, then notch down the distortion a few clicks before recording, and see how it sounds in the recording. It's a starting point at least.

Anyway, recording isn't my strong point (yet). I've got a studio planned, but that's a few years down the road heh. Anyway some of the more experienced members can probably add to what I've started.

I cannot make any recommendations on the mics, as I've not used them myself. I have heard some good things about the Sennheiser and the AKG, but honestly, if you want the SM57 sound, then just save up for an SM57.

I do know MXL mics are generally pretty decent. Also for recording vocals, you may want to go ahead and stick with a dynamic mic rather than going with a condenser, especially in a rock/metal situation. Just my .02.

That said, if you're planning on putting money towards anything, I'd start with a better audio interface. You can get some pretty decent ones for the $150 range. I think Echo makes an Audiofire 2 for about $200 (I have the Audiofire 4, and love it) and they've got a good reputation.

Hope that helps.

Fragile
Member
Since: Sep 30, 2009

Sep 30, 2009 10:12 pm

Hey thanks a lot! Any little bit of advice helps. :]

My micing technique eh? Yeah I'm sure that's sub par at the moment. I'll experiment more with it tonight. So far i've tested it at various angles, positions, and distances away from the cab and all of it has been quite harsh. Oddly enough i never thought of turning the amp down lol, sensible idea. I could go into more detail but i'll post after i do some extensive testing.

As for bypassing the PA system, i was thinking the same thing. I wasn't sure if it could introduce noise or not, it runs acoustic guitars, keyboards, and my electronic drums beautifully. But if there's even a chance its getting in the way i might as well buy one at GC and return it if i don't notice a big difference.

Any cheap ways to eliminate room sound? My recording room (bedroom haha) is roughly 12x16, drywall. Thats a very rough estimate. I've heard things like special kinds of blakets for moving furniture or something unrelated like that can do wonders for a guitar amp.

As for the mics, i'm not really looking for an SM57 sound, the ATM650 supposedly has a similar sound and is the same price. So i figured i'd give it a shot since i've heard so much about 57's. For vocals i do think i'm going to go condenser. That seems to be the first piece of advice i hear, and i already have a Sennheiser dynamic mic. It sounds good enough i suppose, but it definitely doesn't have that quality i've heard from even home recordings with condenser mics.

Anyway thanks so much! I think i'll take your advice and buy an interface soon enough. And just so everyone knows, i still have about a month left to decide on keeping the ATM650 or upgrading to the e906. :] Again, sorry for the unnecessarily long post haha.

Fragile
Member
Since: Sep 30, 2009

Oct 01, 2009 08:35 am

Well, i tested the mic out a little more last night and figured i'd post what i found. Its a fairly accurate representation in front of my bass cab, it actually surprised me how good it sounded considering i didn't even move the mic or try different positions. It even sounded good when i turned the gain on my bass (yeahh a lot of bass players consider bass distortion a bit of a taboo but... it just feels so dang powerful i can't not use it every time i play :]). So for the bass i'm fairly happy.

My guitar amp, i turned it down and it sounded BETTER. Still not great, but again, i didn't spend too much time setting the mic up before i started getting sleepy haha. And i've heard a lot of good things about double and quad tracking, which i'll experiment with once i get a good tone out of single tracking. But It was to the point where i at least have hope in my setup, and the ATM650.

That being said, i still value your opinions on this site. So what are your opinions on the ATM650 vs the e906? Is it a world of difference? And also, would buying a better audio interface revamp my tone by enough to make me consider forking out 150?

Dematrix
http://www.reverbnation.com/2ndg
Member
Since: Nov 27, 2007

Oct 01, 2009 08:52 am

you'd be surprised on the sound if you used bits and pieces of what you have for guitar tracking.

by this i mean, if you have a couple of different mics and you wanna double or quad track your guitars, then use the diferent mics in different posi's each time you layer a track.

this way you'll have little chance of getting phase cancel on em.
if you multi track guitars using the same mic posi, mic and amp settings youll get phase cancel. that'll make them sound thin and cruddy.

on the vox mic, be careful with condensers, they can make your vox sound thin and dry if you pick the wrong one.

i have a couple of vox mics, first i bought the Rode NT1a condenser and it sounded like turd for vox really, yet i was told it was a great voc mic. IMO not a good vocal mic.
depending on what you wanna spend there are a few good choices out there. Shure sm7b is a good'n.

Dematrix
http://www.reverbnation.com/2ndg
Member
Since: Nov 27, 2007

Oct 01, 2009 08:57 am

oh and the sm7b can is a great guitar recording mic too so your getting 2 for the price of one really.
it can take up to 180dB which is even more than the sm57.

Imo, those 2 mics in your setup is a good choice.

Fragile
Member
Since: Sep 30, 2009

Oct 01, 2009 12:33 pm

Thanks for the recording tip Deon :] I'll be sure to try that technique out, it makes perfect sense. As for the mic, I'm pretty sure I've seen that mic being used by quite a few pro's on vocals, and if it sounds good on guitar then even better! The only problem is its a little more than I'd wanted to spend. I could probably scrounge up $350, but it'd definitely be the only mic i could afford at the time.

Option A: return ATM650 and buy SM7B, and preamp ($480 total). Option B: Keep ATM650 and buy MXL3000 w/ preamp package ($300 total). :\ I'm kinda diggin' the cheaper method unless I'm certain the SM7B sounds that much better.

CptTripps
Czar of Turd Polish
Member
Since: Jun 20, 2006

Oct 01, 2009 12:55 pm

I think with the SM7b you will have a mic you keep (and use) for life. Option B leaves you with two mics though... tough one :)

J-bot
Byte-Mixer
Member
Since: Dec 04, 2007

Oct 01, 2009 05:19 pm

Alright, on "taming" the room a bit to control the sound, Massive's got a good guide here: www.massivemastering.com/..._Room_Setup.php

So, I'd start with trying to deal with the corners first. If you can't afford bass traps, you could try to get some rockwool or mineral fiber and make your own.You could also try putting some bookshelves in the room, and filling them up with books. I don't know if they'll work very well as bass traps in the corners, but you could try that too.

Noize2u
Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Oct 01, 2009 08:37 pm

I"ll anser the question on the e906 first off. Yes it is worth the extra $80 for that mic. You can also look at their e 609 instead which runs a little cheaper down under the $120 mark. It is nearly the same mic and does work very well on guitar cabinets indeed. They are both the offsrping of the famed Sennheiser MD409 which was a killer instrument mic. But indeed they are good for guitar cabinets.

Whomever told you the 650 was equal or better quality to the SM57 needs their head examined for sure. I am guessing it was one of the Guitar Center dudes just to sell a product they can't get rid of. So I do suggest offing the 650 for at least an SM57. And that is not to say the 650 sucks, but it isn't a 57 by any stretch of the imagination.

But honestly the 609 or 906 are a much better investment if miccing the guitar cab is important.

On the perception 220 or the MXL3000. Those are not going to be good for close miccing a guitar cabinet at all. Those are LDC mic's and are not meant to get bashed with the higher SPL of the speaker up close. But if your looking to add the rig for a vocal set up then the MXL is a bet better sounding then the Perception. But that said the 220 is a decent all around mic as well. I'm not a huge fan of the Presonus Tube Pre. But on a budget it will work well with that MXL mic.

Fragile
Member
Since: Sep 30, 2009

Oct 02, 2009 01:48 am

:] Noise2u you are a genius haha, very assertive i must say. Which is a good thing in a forum. Anyway if you say its that much better, i'll return it next paycheck and find out for myself (sadly i don't even have 80 dollars in my pocket anymore to upgrade, damn that fast food :\). Yeah the guy at GC claims he works in a studio, but that just gives him more ability to coerce me into buying anything he wants. But enough ranting, i'll get down to business.

Chances are I'll end up buying the MXL3000 and the Presonus Tube Pre package (the mic alone is 180, for an extra 20 bucks they're practically giving me the preamp!). But just out of curiosity, do you know any other good budget preamps? Also, you said the 906 and 609 were nearly the same mic? I wouldn't mind saving 60 bucks if its not a noticeable difference. But I also wouldn't mind losing 60 bucks to get a slightly more killer guitar tone.

And might as well put this out there while its on my mind. If there is any question that my PA System's mixer/ Behringer UCA202 setup is causing interference, making my sound small, or just holding it back in any way; would one of those XLR > USB cables work? I saw one a few days ago for like 40 bucks (link at bottom). Anyone for or against hooking that up to the output of the preamp?

Eh, recap all my questions for convenience?
-Any other good budget preamps out there anyone recommends over the PreTube?
-609 vs 906 vs my measly $60 :[
-How much of a difference should a "real" USB interface, or LightSnake cable, make over my UCA202?

Sorry i'm keeping this forum page so large. I'm a TOTAL newbie at all of this. You guys are helping a ton though :] All of ya.

LightSnake USB Microphone Cable
www.guitarcenter.com/Ligh...183-i1391847.gc

Noize2u
Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Oct 03, 2009 01:51 am

Stay as far away from those USB type microphone connection's. The only USB device on the market right now that works well with that same idea is made by Shure, the microphone company.

On the 906 vs 609. On a higher end system you might notice a bit of difference. I've used the 609's for years without anyone complaining. And in fact just turned a friend of mine onto them as well and he loved it.

I'll say this, it does partly depend on what type of guitar you are recording a bit as well. Can you describe what type of music and your guitar tone? That will help as well.

Fragile
Member
Since: Sep 30, 2009

Oct 03, 2009 08:20 am

Certainly :] Yeah i guess if we're talking tone i should have said that long ago haha. Alright, for distortion i'm going for a very modern, fairly high distortion. Chevelle's earlier albums, Linkin Park, 10 Years, Breaking Benjamin, Three Days Grace, A Perfect Circle. Thats a fairly wide range of distortions i suppose, but it should give you an idea of the tone i'm going for. A lot of low end. I care more about rhythm sounds than leads. As for clean, not a huge deal. I can get a decent clean tone out of pretty much anything and be satisfied. Though i am a sucker for my chorus and flange, if that makes any difference for mics. My guitar is an epi les paul, with a set of seymour duncan jazz and JB's. My amp is a B52 AT212. Thanks again.

Noize2u
Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Oct 05, 2009 10:18 pm

For those tones I think the 609 would save you a few bucks and get you a good tone as well.

Also, just to note. When I'm doing some of that type guitar tone I will at times use a second room mic depending on the room. This may or may not work in your room. But if you are still considering the MXL in the future that would be a good room mic. Place it around 4 to 6 feet out front of the cabinet. You will have to move it farther away or closer until you get a good sound. Don't go much closer then about 3 feet though as it can't take really high SPL's. But then record that and the 609 to 2 separate track and then mix them together to taste. Be careful to keep them in phase though so it one track doesn't cancel any tone from the other track.

onslaught666
Member
Since: Sep 11, 2009

Oct 06, 2009 12:25 am

you might try to eliminate the room sound as much as possible by putting sound foam (or something of equal consistency) on the sides floor and wall in front of your cab, also place your mics up against the cloth or as close as possible to a metal grill. i'm still learning myself, but have found room sound to a burden with a metal guitar tone. a cool micing technique i've tried is using an sm57 right in the center of the cone (close as possible) and a beta57 further towards the edge to capture the lower freq. try to avoid phasing though. but dual micing sounds friggin sweet!

Dematrix
http://www.reverbnation.com/2ndg
Member
Since: Nov 27, 2007

Oct 06, 2009 01:29 am

yeah man, room noise seems to really wash off the edges on heavy guitar, so i agree, gotta try and kill that noise as much as possible.
I find even when you think there's no way any room noise could come thru on a 57 that close to the cab, it somehow does.
Makes fast picking especially sound muddy.
but thats a whole other tin of worms im not gonna open.

Fragile
Member
Since: Sep 30, 2009

Oct 06, 2009 09:04 am

Deleted By Fragile

Fragile
Member
Since: Sep 30, 2009

Oct 06, 2009 09:17 am

Wow, room noise is that big of a deal eh? Well, here's my plan at the moment. I think I'm going to trade up the ATM650 for an e906. Sure, its more expensive :\ but I'm just gonna kick myself if i don't do it. I've read a few articles describing the new silver 609's as "thin" and "tinny." They claim the older models were preferred. The e906 has a selector switch for different tones. Does anyone find that feature very useful, or do typical equalizers do the same thing?

As for room noise, I've seen a guy on youtube suggest buying a $20 blanket that is made for "furniture moving pads" or something of the like, and covering your amplifier with it. Has anyone experimented with the same concept? Here's a link to the video, the section I'm referring to is around 2:20.

Noize2u
Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Oct 06, 2009 07:45 pm

Just to note, the room noise all depends on the room. If your talking a small room with carpet you won't have to worry much about that.

And the thing that must not have been clear is the fact that you mix the room track in to taste. It is NOT the main part of the guitar tone. It is there for body only, as it will add some size to the sound of the guitar, not noise if you take care as I suggested to work on getting the mic placed properly and then mix the track in properly as well.

So don't disregard the room mic as you can make it work with some effort.

Now if your talking that you are recording in a concrete bunker with no absorption at all, then room noise could be a factor. But again, you can work that out as well with proper care.

Fragile
Member
Since: Sep 30, 2009

Oct 06, 2009 10:03 pm

Ah sorry Noize. For some reason when i checked the thread i didn't even notice your post from a few days ago; i completely misunderstood the other posts without reading yours.

Anyway, i understand what you're saying about the room mic. Expect a new thread by me when i'm frustrated ripping out my hair trying to figure out this whole room mic thing :] I will be sure to test it out when i get the money to buy the preamp/mic bundle :] Which should be soon, work has been slow (construction, seasonal :\) But i actually got a gig at a local coffee house one night a week. Money should start rollin' in!

Guitar Mic Options and Current Recording Setup