Jun 27, 2009 01:48 pm to post music select 'manage your songs' from the 'my account" drop down menu (the little arrow next to 'my account'...the click add a song right under where it says 'song management'.
Why The Heck Is This??
Posted on Jun 27, 2009 11:20 am
musicman9434
Member Since: Jun 11, 2009
Ok,
I was using Pro Tools for awhile and I really really like it. Its very simple to use and I know my way around. Thing is that my guitar plugins sound crappy.
I tried other DAWs and Sony Acid sounds better. I thought they would be the same in all DAWs but no.
I have a few samples for you all to listen to and judge for yourself but I don't know how to upload them.
Can you all help?
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Jun 27, 2009 01:48 pm to post music select 'manage your songs' from the 'my account" drop down menu (the little arrow next to 'my account'...the click add a song right under where it says 'song management'.
Jun 27, 2009 03:05 pm Ok I added all three tests. All of them use the same clip and same plug in setting. Converting them to mp3 lost some of the subtle differences. They actually sound like the acid and cubase were recorded at a lower volume but they were not. I am using the M box for my interface so maybe thats why it seems louder in pro tools.
You may think they all sound the same but I am telling you if you were over here and could listen to them at full resolution you could clearly hear it.
Thoughts?
Oh they are listed under Blues Pro tools test Cubase Test And Acid MP3.
Jun 27, 2009 03:54 pm hmmmm to me Acid test and cubase sound identical, and PT has reverb added to it.....tone wise, i'm not hearing any difference at all.
Jun 27, 2009 03:56 pm i wonder if you're hearing a feed back loop or something within the internal routing inside whatever software sounds "crappy" to you....all three sound "good" on the same level to me....sounds like yer splittin' hairs.
Jun 27, 2009 04:37 pm Yeah guys I know they sound almost identical but the uncompressed versions sound different. Pro tools has no reverb on it at all. All the same.
And I know it sounds like Im really being picky here but I am not the only one. My drummer has heard the same thing. It is really obvious in the software.
If there was only a way to teleport you guys over here.....lol
Jun 27, 2009 04:38 pm Do you guys have an email. I can filemail you the uncompressed.
Jun 27, 2009 07:49 pm how many tracks of guitars are you putting in there, multiple tracks?
if so, did you redo them when you changed to different the programs?
i cant listen to your stuff because i cant get into your profile, i have this big white strip across my page where your options are.
Jun 27, 2009 09:32 pm nope they are the same exact sample droped into each daw dry and then I used the same exact plug in and preset.
Jun 27, 2009 10:25 pm Hey musicman, my email is listed so feel to shoot them over to me and I'll give them a go. If the listed email rejects it simply change it to @gmail and send them there.
I gave a quick listen to these samples but not loud enough to tell. I'll give them another go tomorrow.
And truth be told, all audio engines are not the same. If your using PT M-Powered or an LE version that may be part of what is happening. Most DAW's handle pluggins pretty well but PT does not do VST without a wrapper and that may be causing an issue as well.
Jun 27, 2009 11:24 pm Yes thats what Im thinking too. Its very pronounced in PT. Im using LE so maybe thats what it is.
I first encountered it at my drummers house. He was using sonar and I was blown away at the quality. I thought it was a Vista thing since he was using XP and me Vista. So I reformatted downgraded and viola! Same problem! LOL
The one thing it seems is like you said the straight VST sounds better. Let me know if you can hear something too.
Jun 27, 2009 11:37 pm Do the files "look" the same? Have you tried to flip phase and see if the cancel each other out?
Jun 28, 2009 06:00 am that what i was thinking too Beerhunter, sounds like a phase problemo.
Jun 28, 2009 09:14 am I don't understand what you mean phase problem. I recorded it in one daw then exported a dry non effected ( the same track just no plugin) and then a second with the plugin turned on. I then took the exported dry track and droped it into the other two daws and used the same plugin and preset. How would phase be doing anything?
Jun 28, 2009 10:30 am ok man, i'm hearing things much better now, and at louder volumes on my monitors. due to the fact i can't download them all, i had to use the HRC player, which does put a few seconds delay......BUT
the Acid one is "dirter" in a very authentic and interesting way, tone wise, not much different....but there is a "tail" of noize/hum that almost sounds like yer plugged into a real. amp and getting too close to an electrical device with yer guiter......
The cubase is the 'clean and dryest' of the three.....very little noise
and protools definitely HAS REVERB on it which may or may not sound "better to you"....
again....i still think you're splitting hairs,. unless you 're planning on duplicating and selling the endproduct..... just make some music man!
Jun 28, 2009 10:50 am I do hear a big difference in all 3 tracks
firstly, yes there is reverb in pro tools, very noticeably at that, there is an echoing trail behind every note.
but i also hear differences in tone and dynamic range as well. The acid one sounds very organic, tonally its dark but warm, pro tools sounds more dynamic than the other ones, the stab of the pick is very defined and thus lends a bright edge to it. the cubase track sounds like it has a room reverb, or like the guitar was recorded in a room, its kind of backed off and weakish
interesting and strange indeed
how r u mixing down? different DAWs will have differnet mixdown options that process the audio and is plugins differently. I know that cubase has a real time mix down vs. non real time function that results in VASTLY differnet products.
Jun 28, 2009 01:49 pm OK, I got them downloaded from the link and will be giving them a spin in a little while.
Jun 28, 2009 02:16 pm HOLD ON! You are absolutly right there WAS a verb on the PT version! MY BAD. I was using a template form digi and it had verb delay and chours busses. SORRY! Im uploading this one to filemail now.
Jun 28, 2009 02:29 pm really crux. I didnt know that. I haven't used cubase in a few years so Im gettin used to it again. Yeah I just did the quick bounce and not real time. Big difference eh? I always wondered why that is?
Jun 28, 2009 02:41 pm Another thing. It is VERY difficult to produce artificial harmonics in PT LE. But when I use Acid I can. It just seems like it is a fuller preset sound. If you want I can upload some tests of those too. I know it sounds subtle on here but once again at full resolution and if you all were here you would DEFIANTLY hear a big difference.
Jun 28, 2009 08:21 pm I hear ya man, i dont think the differences r subtle at all. There is a big difference between all three tests and i was listening to the compressed files on ur members page. Im suspecting it is the mix down process, from wat i know i think every company develops their own summing algorithm which is probably wat they say when they tote their DAW as being better "sounding". It makes logical sense to, as someone has to design how the program will sum up the audio and plugins and wat not and obviously not everyone will think the same things r important within that process.
I was surprised to not only hear tonal differences in the tests, but a very distinct dynamic different in the PT version... makes me wanna try mixing down with that DAW... but ull never get my money digidesign!!!
u could try mixing down dry tracks? maybe with the plugin out of the equation u can find out whether its how the audio is being summed or if its how each DAW processes VST.
Jun 28, 2009 10:24 pm musicman, I didn't get time to check out the wav files tonight but will have time tomorrow evening and I'll post back then. But what you are saying stands to reason that would be part of the way the audio engine is working by using the wrapper for the VST in PT LE.
Jun 28, 2009 11:19 pm Crux yeah its something to try. But like I had said its while Im in the DAW itself and playing. I tried bouncing them so you guys could judge for yourself. Most of the time Im working within the program so thats why its such a problem. In PT it was so harsh sounding that for awhile I lost my inspiration to record! Seriously....I had to force myself to sit down and come up with stuff.
I just don't get why digi would market a product that comes bundled with amp simulator programs (amplitube) and they sound like crap!
Guys I used to dump eq's compressors all kinds of stuff to try to get rid of that honky trebbily noise! (granted I don't know how to use either that well at all).
I wish there was some workaround.
Jun 29, 2009 01:00 am do ya have an amp and a mic? maybe runnin' that through amplitube instead of recording a dry guitar and depending 100% on anplitube....does that make sense? like say yer gooin' for a good distorted sound, dirty it up a bit before adding the digital effect...try different combo's like clean amp to distorted amp sim...or vicer versa....experiment...
Jun 29, 2009 09:27 am whosyourdaddy thats a cool idea. I used to live in an apartment so I couldnt use my amp at all but Im in a house now. Maybe Ill give that a shot.
But Ill tell you I only have the bundled version of amplitube but if I went out and paid 3 or 4 hundred bucks and it sounded like that I would be rightly pissed!
Jun 29, 2009 05:51 pm You can actually see the difference in the wav file. The biggest jump is the PT file. It's wav is much louder but the file is not as large MB wise compared to the Acid file which is about 1 meeg larger then the PT or cubase file. So I am guessing that it is either being recorded at a higher quality or exported that way. But they all imported as 24 bit files @ 44.1khz so I'm thinking its just a bit more audio in that file.
But you can hear the difference, with the Acid file being a much better more natural sound for sure. The PT LE track although having a louder wav file sounds like arse compared to the Acid file.
So no, your not creaming or being overly picky on that at all. The only thing I could possibly point the finger at is that PT does not like that pluggin as it has to use the wrapper for it. And that in itself may be causing the issue.
Jun 29, 2009 06:26 pm THANKS.....Its hard unless you were here or like I did sent you the full resolution.
Noise the thing is it seems like ALL the guitar pluggins sound like that!
Now I don't mind using Acid BUT I do love the ease and convenience of pro tools. Would you know of any workarounds maybe?
Thanks allot for taking the time. I thought it might be something with how PT processes it!
Jun 29, 2009 08:28 pm Could u record ur guitars in ACID, export them done and processed and import them into PT?
Jun 29, 2009 09:26 pm Um ya but it ain't going to be cheap.You will need to use the RTAS or Audio Suite pluggins designed for PT LE.
I know Amp Farm used to be RTAS but I don't even see that listed on the Digi site any lnger The only one they have now that I can see is Native Instruments Guitar Rig 3. www.digidesign.com/index....amp;itemid=5584
Its a damn good pluggin, but I would opt for buying it direct from NI or somewhere other then off the Digidesign site.
Jun 29, 2009 11:17 pm I hate to break it too you bro but that WAS guitar rig 3.....
Jun 29, 2009 11:18 pm Crux yeah I could but you know......if I could just use one that would be great.
Jun 30, 2009 01:33 pm But was it the VST then? In PT you should be using the RTAS or Audio Suite plugin. It will wrap the VST which isn't nearly as good when its wrapped to my ears.
Jun 30, 2009 10:39 pm When I installed all my amp simulator plugins I used the multiple option for my different DAWs. So I had VST, RTAS, DX ect all checked. Do you think it might have put in VST by mistake? Where could I find it?
Jul 01, 2009 04:09 pm You can actually install all the pluggin version's for use in multiple DAW's without any trouble. But when you choose a pluggin to use in your DAW it should give you a separate folder for VST and RTAS or Audio Suite pluggins. It will either be in a separate folder or sectioned off in a group that would be of that same pluggin type.
In Sonar I can arrange all my pluggins according to what ever category I choose. So all m y high end VST and VSTi are in a separate folder from the DX and DXi. As well the freebie VST and what not are also in a separate folder.
I do believe PT can do that as well.
When you bring up your pluggins menu you should have separate section's for VST. RTAS and Audio Suite or whichever version's you installed.
Jul 01, 2009 05:12 pm I haven't seen anything like that in Pro Tools before I thought it would only take RTAS pluggins, but I have been wrong before. I hope I am and it IS VST.
That would be awsome. Ill let you know what I find here in a bit.
Jul 01, 2009 06:21 pm No they are RTAS. Pro Tools only uses TDM RTAS and Audiosuite pluggin formats.
I don't understand why they sound so crap in Pro Tools. I did another test with Guitar Rig. I used the Eric Clapton preset in PT first. And then in Acid.
HUGE difference! In PT it is just well....dead sounding. And more mid and upper rangey. The signal kinda dies after a note or chord is struck and it is very difficult to produce pinch harmonics.
I they put in acid and VIOLA! The preset was alive and beautiful. I mean it is amazing how much fuller the SAME EXACT preset sounds. I can produce the pinch harmonics and there is allot more tail to the sound. It doesn't just drop off.
I am really confused how anyone could consider this industry standard stuff. It is SO freakin different in other DAWs. Maybe I'm just doing something wrong I don't know but if its a choice between a really nice looking DAW and ease of use but crappy sounding guitars I think I could handle a little inconvenience!
Maybe some of you guys could perform some tests of your own. I would really be interested in the results!
By the way NOIZE in comparison to the clips I sent you where would Sonar fall guitar wise?
Jul 02, 2009 10:35 pm If you shoot me a clip of the raw guitar you are processing I'll give it a couple of shot's with some different plug's and put them up for you to hear.
Just a note though, I've never had anything like that happen in Sonar, or actually even when I used Cubase as well a long time ago when these type of pluggin's were still in their infancy.
Jul 04, 2009 02:59 pm ok I will send you them tomorrow. Sorry about not getting back....you know work and stuff. HAPPY 4th ALL!!
Jul 04, 2009 11:34 pm No sweat, I spent most of today holed up doing a little rush project.
Jul 05, 2009 07:40 am a little "Rush" project, he's so modest....tell Geddy i need my bass back when he's done!
Jul 05, 2009 08:04 pm Notice its with a small R!
I figured someone would go after that.
Could be taken that way though, if Rush was in Japan.
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