help with drum triggering and multi-track recording.
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Posted on Apr 30, 2009 09:25 pm
xRATLEYx
Member Since: Apr 30, 2009
ok, so i've been recording my drums through a 12 track mixer for a couple years. I finally have gotten sick of trying to get the single track of drums to sound the way i want.
I would like to learn what equipment i'm gonna need to record each mic (snare, kick, etc.) to it's own individual track.
and also learn how to set up drum triggers.
help, please?
thanks,
cody.
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CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
May 01, 2009 11:43 am Ok,
How many mics do you want to use?
On my four piece I use 7 mics total.
1 kick (D6)
1 floor (D4)
1 rack (D2)
1 snare (D1)
1 snare under (D1) (nice, but not necessary)
2 OH (2xNT5)
I would think you need an 8 channel interface and enough mics for the task. You could get by with 4 though (kick, snare, 2xOH's).
Also, unless you want to trigger them live you could look into drumagog. It's a VST plugin that simply triggers sampled (real acoustic) drums but I like the fact that you do it after tracking instead of during. No need for dedicated triggers either as your mics perform that function. You could read up and see if that is something that would work for you (for drumagog you would definitely want each drum mic'd, just like a triggered kit.
HippieRockstar Vatican AssassinMember
Since: Mar 20, 2009
May 01, 2009 01:01 pm Even with triggers, you'll still be looking for that "sound" per individual track. Triggers merely take the guesswork out of using "compressors," since the idea of triggers to make every "hit" equal in punch/sound.
Musiciansfriend.com or guitarcenter.com will have a variety of drum mic kits for reasonable prices 5, 6, & 7 piece kits. I also suggest finding what you want and then searching ebay stores. As far as brand... Sure, Samson, and CAD seem to be the popular favs. I personally use the economically priced Audio Technica kit (2 reasons). Has all the mics I need... and mounting clips were included! I like them to be honest.
pro-audio.musiciansfriend...Case?sku=270458
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
May 01, 2009 01:50 pm Wait, as far as I know triggers alone do nothing to make each hit sound equal as they are capable of picking up multiple velocity leves, the drummer and more impoartantly the samples being inserted will determine that.
If you insert a single velocity kick tone then yes every hit will be equal in punch/sound and result in a very unnatural sounding kick (no good unless specifically looking for that). If triggers did that exclusively I have a feeling they would not sell to well.
Most people I know do not want this at all and use samples that are capable of picking up those different levels and then apply them accordingly.
For example, most Drumagog kits have up to 15 or more samples per drum with the higher end purchased ones have even more that can can be randomly inserted using the dynamic function which does wonders to make it sound natural.
My understanding of triggers was to implement sounds that your drums can't produce, fix a bad sounding drum and for digital drums.
HippieRockstar Vatican AssassinMember
Since: Mar 20, 2009
May 01, 2009 02:01 pm Quote:
My understanding of triggers was to implement sounds that your drums can't produce, fix a bad sounding drum and for digital drums.
True.. you can obviously alter the sound being recorded, but triggers are used A LOT in really fast deathmetal music... and for good reason. It's not cause the drummers have really bad sounding drums, its because when they play super fast double-bass, the motions are all "ankles" and less legs, hence the "punch" to the bass-head is less (less force) creating less attack. Triggers remove the dependency to be "force" accurate. Can you make every drum sound like roto-toms using Triggers? Absolutely. But this is not what drummers are really after.
A good example of this in practice: Conventional Triggers are typically mounted to the bass/toms..... which may trip the trigger into thinking there was 2 hits (ultra sensitive) because of loose tom heads or bad trigger placement. The triggers used on Axis pedals, however, are mounted on the pedal itself.... and is triggered by the spring mount. So there's nothing to cause a double-tap on the sensor.
EDIT: You may be right about the "tom" triggers (my apologies) as it would appear certain types of triggers will sensor the amount of force/attack and adjust accordingly (raise in volume output if hard hitting) However.... whether the drummer hits the rim of the tom, or the center of the tom with the same amount of force, the sound from the trigger is the same. You and I both know... toms sound very different depending on where you hit the head! That being said, triggers produce "consistent" output with variable volume levels.
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
May 01, 2009 02:32 pm This I understand, but that is one drum in one particular type of music and far from the norm. Also, that clicky tone so desired in metal is a "sound your drums (drummer) can't produce" because they are playing too fast to get good velocity , in that respect I think my description is pretty valid.
Unless someone says "I am in a death metal band" I assume they want there drums to sound like drums.
"Triggers merely take the guesswork out of using compressors since the idea is to make every hit sound equal in punch/sound".
Your defenition of a trigger is more in line with a technique applied to hip hop and death metal. A technique which is not a limitation of the trigger and not desired by most other musical types.
I am not trying to be rude, but there is a little mis-information there.
HippieRockstar Vatican AssassinMember
Since: Mar 20, 2009
May 01, 2009 02:44 pm I think where we have our differences is on the notion that triggers are used to "change" the sound of natural drums. If you ask any drummer from any style of music why they use triggers, you'll get 2 answers. Consistent sound during recording.... and no bleed like you would experience with live mics. Triggers for drums is like what a Line 6 POD is for guitars. Clean, Crisp sound without the bleed, phasing issues, need for limiters, need for compressors, etc. It's convenience.... regardless of music type.
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
May 01, 2009 05:08 pm I don't think that is the case really, you are focusing on one of three options I gave for using triggers, I maybe should have added an etc.. but never intended those excamples as the be all end all trigger usage guide. As I stated they were "my understandings".
Now, my problem is with your statement that "the idea behind them is to take away the need for comp and to make each hit equal". That is simply an end result that can be achieved but was stated like a fact.
In reality they have been working for years to improve EDrums\Triggers in regards to reading different levels and trying to reproduce the dynamics of an acoustic kit. They would not do this if they wanted all hits the same tone and level.
Now, even though quite civil, we should probably end this out of respect for the OP.
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
May 02, 2009 10:28 pm Capen T,
so are you saying with drumagog, that you can use mics to trigger drums samples?
ive often wondered about this but never looked into it.
is this just a drumagog thing, or can you do it with normal recording software like Cubase?
like micing the kit, and having the signal recorded to a midi drum map, instead of audio.
i always thought you'd need to set up triggers.
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
May 04, 2009 01:03 pm Exactly that, the mics act as triggers and you control everything through a .vst. plug. They do not record to a midi map though, just processed in realtime.
I never touch OH's as I don't have enough mics for each cymbal but that is a possibility.
I control sensitivity through a very easy to use slider and the wet dry control is nice for lightly accenting instead of full blown replacement. The pitch shifter is a godsend when accenting a drum instead of replacing. It can also perform ducking to remove some snare from say the OH's
The best part is multi samples, if my snare hits at -12db then it is replaced by the -12db sample. I usually EQ a little before to remove and mud but comp afterwards to keep the levels natural in drumagog.
Big warning, this program uses .GOG files. You can create your own, buy pro bundles and even find a few free ones that are nice. But if you want to use it with DFH I believe they have a specific version just for that. Also, it aint cheap :)
I have been thinking of a little project just for myself but would provide info to others.
I want to record some drums and post 4 different versions. I am lazy but will try to do this.
Raw tracks
Mixed
Drumagog accented
Drumagog replaced
