Condenser vs dynamic question
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Posted on Mar 21, 2009 08:23 am
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Member Since: Jul 09, 2008
As my band upgrades gear our overall sound has really improved. I'm now looking at a replacement vocal mic. I currently use a wireless with an sm58 capsule. I don't have the info on the transmitter/receiver but it is a cheaper one. How do I know whether to buy a condenser or dynamic mic? I plan on getting another (better) wireless. I have several vocal "effects" boxes that I use. My signal goes through a TC Helicon voicetone correct (great to have if you don't have a sound guy) a digitech harmonizer and a TC Helicon voiceprizm plus. I will be replacing all of them with a TC Helicon voicelive 2 when it is released in May. I sing mostly classic rock but there is a wide range in dynamics and registers. We go from Crosby, Stills and Nash in our acoustic set to more "screamy" stuff in our electric sets. Any suggestions on a new mic? I just don't know what the performance differences are between the two types of mics. While price is always a concern it is never the first one.
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Mar 21, 2009 09:57 am The biggest difference between condenser and dynamic, is the gain coming back to the board.
With a condenser, there is a preamp built in to the mic itself. So, you get a much hotter signal back at the board. Keeping the noise floor low, but the signal hot.
Plus, you can get a wider range of pick up patterns with condenser then you can with dynamic. But, being that it is for vocals on stage. You are fine with a cardioid pattern. Which a 58 is. And a Beta 58 is still the industry standard for just about everyone.
The only thing that will be of concern for you, is the fact that you are using an older wireless. This is where you may get into trouble.
You need to check the frequency range that you are operating in. If it falls into the 700 mhz. You have no choice but to change it. Why? Because our not so good friends over at the FCC have sold that range to emergency responders. And if they find you using anything in that range, they can fine you, or even arrest you. Ain't that grand?
It is now illegal to own, operate, sell, or use anything in the 700 mhz range.
Where I work at, we just had to switch all of our 40 channels of Shure UD4 wireless. And had to go to the UR4 bands. Now, this is the expensive wireless. You do not have to go this route. Both Shure and Sennheisser have cheaper wireless in the 500 - 600 mhz range. And, (Here is some good news) both will take your wireless back, and give you credit towards you next purchase. And it does not matter which brand that you own, either will take any manufacturer's wireless back.
So, at least you get some reprieve there.
If you still want to go the condenser route. May I suggest the Shure KSM9. I my opinion, it blows the Neumann 105 away. One of the warmest, and cleanest mic's that I have ever used. But, it does come with a huge price tag. The non-wireless version cost slightly over $900 bucks. The UR4 in the J-5 band cost slightly over $1900 dollars.
So, you may wish to stick with a Beta 58. It won't break the bank as quickly.
Mar 21, 2009 10:47 am Thanks Rob. Does the hotter signal/lower noise floor with a condenser change the feedback situation at all? Is there a significant sound difference? What is your opinion of the Beta87A?
Mar 21, 2009 11:07 am It's not just gain - The sensitivity of a condenser is wholly different and far more linear than a dynamic.
That said - If the vocalist's voice needs a condenser, go with it. Yes, you're going to have to watch your gain staging and the vocalist is going to have to have rather refined technique.
But also keep in mind that the 58 is used more than all other vocal mics combined for live use - That's not just because it's bullet-proof... It's because it's a wonderful sounding mic.
Put a dynamic on a voice that's asking for a condenser and you'll wind up adding a little high end, maybe dropping a little 800, and lack a little sensitivity. Put a condenser on a voice that's asking for a dynamic and you're in trouble. The former is "less than ideal" - The latter is "nasty."
Mar 21, 2009 11:17 am Well, there is a lot that goes into controlling feedback. One of which is the pick-up pattern. Another is the EQ of the mic, EQ of the board, EQ of the wedge.
All of these factors will help create or reduce feedback.
Gain structure is the biggest factor. So, if you have a hot signal coming back to the board. And it's not at a level that is close to peak. (Clip) Then you do not have to turn the gain up on the board. This reduces the noise floor that help contribute to feedback.
Remember, even on a dynamic mic, you want to try and keep gain structure as close to unity (0 dB) as possible. Not to far over, and not to far below.
Another big factor is the pick-up pattern of the mic. Your 58 uses a cardioid pattern.
If you look at the picture. You can see that this type of pattern does not pick up well from the rear of the mic. It almost does not exist at all from behind.
So, if you have a floor monitor right in front of you, then the mic really does not see it as well. Which helps in reducing feedback.
Now on the 87 that you are looking at. It has what is know as a hyper cardioid pattern.
Here,you see that it has a large node from behind the mic. If you have a floor monitor in front of you. Well, the mic can see that very well. And that will make feedback a little hard to control.
Also, look at the pattern in the front of the mic. It's narrower compared to the cardioid pattern. This means that you need to be directly in front of the center of the mic to get a strong signal.
We mainly use hyper cardioid patterns for situations where the monitors are off to the side of the mic. I mean a direct left and right pair. Side fills. And nothing out front of you. You see a lot of artist using them when they are using in ears. With in ears, there is nothing to feedback. And a 87 has a nice crisp sound to it. That is why it is used a lot as well. It does give a good amount of cut through power in live sound.
So, if you are using in ear monitors, and do not have any floor monitor in front of you. Then an 87 would be a good choice.
If you are not using in ears. And you do have a floor monitor in front of you, then I think a 58 would be a better choice.
Mar 21, 2009 01:16 pm I do use floor monitors in front of me so I guess I'll be sticking with the 58 series with a new transmitter. How much of a difference is there between the SM and Beta?
Mar 21, 2009 01:29 pm SM58 response.
Beta 58A
You can see that the beta has a better top end response.
Mar 21, 2009 01:40 pm According to the Shure site, the Beta has a "super cardoid" pattern. Will this cause a problem with floor monitors?
Mar 21, 2009 02:35 pm A super cardioid is just a wide hyper cardioid. So, it still picks up from behind.
Mar 22, 2009 08:08 am I hate to say it, but I think I'm going to have to try a few systems out. Is there anybody with a return policy on microphones?
Mar 22, 2009 11:31 am Perhaps you can rent several different mics if you want to try them out in a live situation (which will be your best test anyway). This would not be an option around here, but maybe you can borrow a few to try out.
I have always thought that for vocals in a live situation - especially when there is high stage volume - the mic of choice would be a dynamic mic with a high gain before feedback. I have only used condenser mics live on drums.
Mar 22, 2009 12:08 pm I think that Alice has the better idea of renting before buying.
Not to many stores will allow you to return a mic, without paying a restocking fee.
You can try Guitar Center. Or, if you have a Sam Ash in your area.
If not, look for a company like the one I work for. Do you live anywhere around Philly?
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Mar 22, 2009 12:39 pm I think that most places won't let you return a microphone due to health reasons. Same thing for anything you put potentially your mouth on like a talk box or harmonicas. At least that's what I've experienced so far.
Mar 22, 2009 05:57 pm Call a local production company and rent a handful of mics. Should be cheap & simple (especially if you tell them you just need them for auditioning).
monmixrIf 50hz 60 will kill ya.Member
Since: Jan 08, 2009
Mar 22, 2009 10:25 pm Id try some out, but Im sure youll end up back at the 58 or beta 58. I dont think your going to like the gain structure using a condenser for vocals, see if some local store will let you A/B a few mics, most with a pro audio dept. will, be sure to A/B any mics with whatever effects or processing units youll be running them through, otherwise your just wasting time.
Mar 23, 2009 05:57 am Good suggestions. Unfortunately since I live in NH there isn't much in the way of PA rental companies around but I will look. I checked out the Shure rebate program and it ends on May 31st so I need to get on this.
