DA7 or 02R?
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Posted on Mar 16, 2003 05:51 pm
blueninjastar
Maniacal Genius
Contributor Since: Dec 30, 2002
It's time once again to make a major purchase for my studio. I'm looking for a digital mixer with a few specific requirements:
Minimum 24 Channels
8 Buss groups
Motorized faders
Ability to be used as a control surface for ProTools and Sonar
Beyond those specifics, the rest of my requirements seem to be pretty well covered by all of the higher-end models. I'm almost 100% convinced to go with the Panasonic/Ramsa DA7. A good friend of mine has one and it's extremely nice, covers all of my requirements and I can get one for about $1500 or so. However, I've been reading a lot about the Yamaha 02R. I've heard a lot of good things about this one too and it looks like I might be able to find one close to the price range I want.
Have any of you guys had any experience with either of these boards? Heard anything about them? What do you guys think?
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juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Mar 16, 2003 08:31 pm I've used O2R's quite a bit at college and I cant' say I was that impressed to be honest - the faders are a bit "flimsy" feeling and the whole operating system wasn't too "user friendly"
To be honest I am not a fan of digital desks in general, the only one that really caught my eye is the Makie Digital 8 Bus - wouldn't say no to one of those (but they are WAY beyond your stated price range.)
jues.
Mar 16, 2003 08:47 pm Thanks jues. Unfortunately, you're right about the Mackie. I would love to go that route, but it's just too much $$. Maybe next time!
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Mar 16, 2003 10:01 pm Blue, cant you do automation in PT LE? I use the automation in Sonar all the time. I dont think I would ever spend the money on a digital desk. I dont ever really think I would get the use out of it.
Mar 16, 2003 10:03 pm I can do my automation in PT, but I would like to be able to use whatever mixer I buy as a control surface for mixing in PT. I can't stand being locked in to clicking and dragging faders and such.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Mar 16, 2003 10:30 pm That is exactly why I have grown to love Sonar so much. I can simply draw in the automation I want, and that include any and all parameters of the audio and midi. FX processors, and everyhing. I can assign any kind of control to even my outboard gear if I choose.
Mar 17, 2003 01:29 am I have the same flexibility with PT LE, but I still like having the tactile work surface of a mixer. So, some sort of control surface is always going to be a necessary part of my studio. I would just like to kill two birds with one stone so to speak. I guess I'll just have to weight the options and make a decision accordingly. THanks for your input. It's greatly valued.
stupeMember
Since: Apr 03, 2002
Mar 17, 2003 03:32 am ninja, dont rule out the tascam dm-24 (i use it). and behringer has one that is dirt cheap
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Mar 17, 2003 07:13 am Blue, why don't you consider something like a Baby Hui - it will work out a damn sight cheaper than a full blow digital mixer.
jues
Mar 17, 2003 10:53 am I have a Motor Mix which is basically the same thing as a baby HUI. It's fine for mixing down, but I need something with all the necessary ins and outs so that I can get more into my system at once. There's no question that I need to put a mixer into the system. I would just like to get one that I could also use like a HUI or Motor Mix to control PT during mixdown.
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Mar 17, 2003 11:11 am Well, the only Digital desk that I know well is the Soundcardt 328 - it's a good desk with a relaible build quality and very nice eqs. I'd give that a little look if I were you.
(sorry, no url :( )
jues
Mar 17, 2003 11:23 am Cool, I'll check that one out. Thanks.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Mar 17, 2003 08:48 pm I used to use JL Cooper moterized faders for most of my stuff. They are fully programable and they have many differant set ups that will work via midi and so-on. they had an integrated control surface that I could run all my old school sequancers and my 16 track tape machine with, all under midi machine control.
Mar 19, 2003 11:40 am Ok, well after listening to everyone's comments and researching around, I'm seriously considering just picking up an analog board for getting the signals in to PT and continuing to mix down using my MotorMix and PT automation. It looks like all of the digital boards will only control a maximum of 8 tracks at a time with PT, so there doesn't seem to be a huge benefit to going that route other than taking one very small piece of gear of my desk.
Anybody have anything to say about Soundtracs boards? I found a pretty nice SOLO 24x8 for a decent price. Thought I would see what you all thought of them.
Sorry to keep beating the same horse here, but I'm trying to be smart about this purchase since it will become such an integral part of my studio. Thanks again.
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Mar 19, 2003 11:54 am Spirit make very reliable desks - I've used the LX-7 and a Folio plenty of times and have found them very co-operative with smooth EQs.
Another desk to condider would be a Makie 24:8.
Seems like you are going about things the right way - doing all you mixing insde the PC - I personally went for the other route and purchased a load of I/O cards so I could mix in analouge - but either way is perfectly good, and of course, you will have this option avaliable to you at a later date.
jues.
Mar 19, 2003 11:58 am I'm still not 100% either way. I would much rather be able to use a large control surface for mixing down, but other that the Digidesign Control 24 at about $8000, nothing looks like it will control more than 8 tracks at a time. It also looks like this is the case with Sonar as well. I assume it's a limitation of data that can be transfered via midi.
So, I'm still looking at digital boards too, but am now waffling about it. I have my eye on a couple of Mackie boards as well. I'm just going to try to be patient and keep badgering you guys with questions until I finally make a decision.
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Mar 19, 2003 12:26 pm Blue,
I'm pretty sure that the Makie Control surface can be intergrated to work with Pro-tools, if it can, then you can construct a 24track system for about £2,000ish - which is a bit cheaper than the Pro-Control 24 alternative.
jues.
Mar 19, 2003 01:01 pm So let me ask you guys this then. My goal is to give myself the flexibility to eventually have more than a "home" studio. If you were stting up a small pro-ish studio working with Sonar or PT, which way would you go? It's beginning to sound to me like the best way to go might be to get an analog board, come in through that and then mix down either entirely from within PT or Sonar or come out of the DAW back into the analog board and just automate anything that needs it in the software. That would allow me to then use any outboard gear I wanted at mix down through the board as well. But if I come back out of the DAW and into the board for mixing, I'll then need to mix to what? DAT? Would I send the signal back into two tracks on the same DAW session? I suppose there are a few options here.
Sorry if I'm ranting here. I'm just sort of thinking out loud while asking questions. I want to make sure that I don't spend a bunch of money on a board that will only be used on the way in and never touched during mix down. And at the same time, I want to have the most scalability possible.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Mar 19, 2003 07:20 pm Blue, that is how I do it, well sort of. With all the outboard synths and stuff, and all the midi sequancing goin on here, that is my easist alternative. I do borrow a pair of 16 channel JL Cooper motorized faders on occasion when I dont feel I am getting what I want in Sonar. I also still do a lot of fades and control on the fly with the synths and SampleCell manually on the analog desk. That way yo can have the best of both worlds and your finger tips, mouse click, track ball, or whatever control you might be using. JL Cooper also make a simple programable unit with the usual recording interface controls, like start,stop and the like. But it also contains a Jog and shuttle knobs. And they can be programed to do whatever also.
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Mar 19, 2003 07:01 pm Blue mate, it's a fair enough point to raise - I spent a fair while thinking about the very same thing myself before I went out and spent about £1600 upgrading my studio from a small home based one into a fully-blow semi-pro setup.
The 2 main choices:
1. Use a control surface and mix everything in protools. If you want to use outboard on tracks you need a multiple IO card and set the in's and outs up at AUX Send / Return loops with each bit of kit. This obviously has the advantage of keeping everything within the digital domain thus reducing hiss, noise and possible harmonic distortion. You will obviously also need a few pre-amps - you can either use a small mixing desk, or better get something like a focusrite octopre - which will give you 8 very high quality preamps all transfered digitally (ADAT) into your ProTools session.
The downsides of this are little - you can use full automation and if you have the cash, you can expand your control surface to mix up to 32 channels at once (and more when you flip those channels!) - obviously you will get that whole "Digtal doesn't sound as warm as analouge" argument, but at 96/24 you are gonna be hard pressed to tell.
The basic setup cost for this: Mackie control £999 (9 channel mixer), 8in 8 out soundcard [delta1010, etc] (for outboard Send/Return loops) £500. Cost: £1500 + any new pre amps that you will require for recording.
2. Get a big old analouge desk and then get a large Multiple IO soundcard (3 Delta 410s for example). This allows you to use any outboard that you need (compressors, FX, etc) and also benefits from having lots of analouge EQ on every single channel and lots of preamps. The downsides are that things can get very "hissy" very quickly with all the noise that the soundcards outputs generate (imagine 24 channels all in the main mix - pretty hissy). You can obviously use the DAW to do all the automation that you need - but you can automate the actual faders that you are mixing with (or draw in curves using it) - this isn't so bad - but it does have its limitations. This setup basically replaces a 24Track Hard Disc recorder with the PC - the advantages being obvious to nearly everyone here.
Basic setup costs: 24Channel mixing console (Any where from £600 (Behringer) right up to £3,000+ (Nerve console, etc), 24in out soundcard solution (£600 (Maudio Delta410 (x3)) up to £1200 (MOTU 24/24). Cost: £1200.
Both of these setups have advantages. Personally, I have the second setup and I must admit that the first option definatly seems like the wiser of the two.
Any questions?
jues :)
Mar 19, 2003 07:46 pm hey jues,
Thanks for taking the time to lay out these options for me. You always come through with such great info! I've been coming to pretty close to the same conclusions myself. I guess what I really need to do is consider these two possibilities for a while before I make a decision. What I would really like is to have my cake and eat it too!
Being as I'm already part way to option number one, I'll likely lean towards that route, but I would really like to be able to come back through the board for mixing for that disctinct advantage of having EQs on every track and easy access to outboard gear.
Either way, I don't think I'm going to get around buying a good desk. Even if I go with option 1, I think it would still be of great benefit to have a good board to gather up and send the signals to the DAW. Plus, it will give me the flexibility to use either of your suggested options in some form. I just have to decide if I should spend the extra money on a digital board that will let me save all of my settings for each session and let me automate some things on the board itself, or if I should just go with an analog desk.
It was all pretty easy to figure out when all I wanted to do was be able to record some demos in my office. Now I've really fallen down that "slippery slope" of building a studio.
Also, bye the way, thanks for the recommendation on the Focusrite preamp. I bought a Voicemaster Platinum and I love it. It was just what I was looking for.
Mar 20, 2003 04:15 pm Well, I made a purchase. After carefully considering all of the options and factors mentioned in this thread, I decided that a digital desk that has a control surface mode would be the most versatile (albeit not the cheapest) solution. So, I bought a Ramsa WR-DA7. 32 channels, 8 buss groups, DAW Control Surface mode, full automation, 16 mic pres, 4 band EQ on every channel, 5.1 ch surround mixing, ADAT interface, and more. I also got the meter bridge.
Thank you guys again for all of your input. It definitely helped me to make an informed decision. I think I now have a better picture of where my studio is going. You guys rule!
Now, to find some room for the new board on my desk!
Mar 20, 2003 06:37 pm well, now that sounds like a sweet unit!
Mar 20, 2003 06:39 pm I'm pretty psyched about it! My friend has one so I've had a chance to play with it a little and it's very nice to work with. I might have a freakin' coronary waiting for it to get shipped to me!
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Mar 20, 2003 10:29 pm Ya, patience is not one of my best virtues. If I see something I want, I gotta have it now, even if I gotta pay extra. I hate that part of me.
And congrats on the new desk dude, they make some decent gear, pricey but decent.
Mar 21, 2003 02:28 am Thanks Noize. I'm extremely impatient myself when it comes to things like this too. And yes, this desk was a bit pricey, but it got it on the ol' ebay market, so I paid a mere fraction of the list price. And this unit has less than 10 hours on it! So, all in all, I don't think I could have done much better. In fact, I didn't pay much more for this one than I would have paid for the higher-end Berhinger desks. So, I think I did pretty well. Now, I just have to figure out the best way to get it set up in my studio. I might have to ask you guys about 100 more questions for figure that out!
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Mar 23, 2003 06:10 pm And you know well answer em for ya dude. Just get ready to spend some bucks on cables. I would even go so far as to suggest makin your own cables.
Mar 23, 2003 07:31 pm Yep, that's exactly what I was thinking. Do you guys know of a particularly good source for the materials for making cables?
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Mar 23, 2003 10:12 pm There is a really good supplier in the latest issue of recording mag, I will have allok and post back.
Mar 24, 2003 11:26 am Excellent. I've been looking, but they all look about the same.
Mar 24, 2003 11:33 am Well, it's only cables and connectors, not a whole lot of variety in the business.
I dunno about in Cali, but around here there is a cool little hole-in-the-wall electronics store called "Acme Electronics" that has tons of crap in bulk for decent prices...I would guess most big cities have one somewhere, maybe look in your area.
Mar 24, 2003 03:14 pm Ok, well I found a place online that seems to have a nice selection of parts and the prices looked about comparable with everywhere else. So, I ordered up some stuff. Does this sound like a good deal to you guys:
10 XLR Male Connectors
10 XLR Female Connectors
20 1/4" Mono plugs
12 1/4" Stereo plugs
100' Spool Mic cable
100' Spool Instrument cable
Before shipping and tax, it all came to about $130.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Mar 24, 2003 10:58 pm Ya, that isnt to bad. do you remember what he charged you per foot on the cable? And what brand are the connectors?
Mar 25, 2003 11:08 am The mic cable was about $3/foot and the instrument cable was just under $4/foot. The XLR connectors are made by Neutrik and the 1/4" connectors are their own brand, Parts Express. I'm sure I could have gotten a better deal elsewhere, but I there's that impatience again!
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Mar 25, 2003 09:01 pm Ya maybe a bit better, but like ya said, the patience thing gets me all the time too. Nuetrik are great, I usually use them or SwitchCraft. I prefer the SwitchCraft for the 1/4" stuff as they are the heaviest pieces I have found to date, very solid.
Mar 25, 2003 09:12 pm Sweet. I'll look to get the SwitchCraft for my next order. I have a feeling I'll be going through what I ordered pretty quick.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Mar 25, 2003 10:24 pm Ya, I keep a big handfull around. I dont go through as many these days, but when it was busy here I went through quite a few.
stupeMember
Since: Apr 03, 2002
Mar 26, 2003 03:43 am ninja, if not mistaken i believe the ramsa da-7 has 8 mic pre's right?
Mar 26, 2003 11:06 am No stupe, there are "16-high quality ultra low noise padless mic pre-amps" according to the specs.
