Recording violin
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Posted on Jul 08, 2008 04:46 pm
BeerHunter
www.TheLondonProject.ca
Member Since: Feb 07, 2005
Hi everyone,
I have a session tonight where I will be recording violin solos for a country rock band. This is something I've never recorded before.
I have 3 room options all of which have been professionally treated and they all have ~15 ft ceilings. Room "A" is approx 6 x 8. Room "B" is approx 15 x 20 and Room "C" is approx 40 x 50.
Mics available are; AT4033, KSM32, AKG414 and AKG460.
The violin also has a pickup so DI is an option.
If I were to guess I would say that I should use the medium sized room (room "B"). Use a coincident pair of AKG460's about 4 ft in front and a KSM32 pointed over the right shoulder of the violinist from behind. Like I was saying, this is just a bit of a guess.
What would you do given these room and mic options? Any tips??
TIA,
Lonnie
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NightcapVeni, MIDI, ViciMember
Since: Jul 02, 2008
Jul 08, 2008 05:21 pm Your AKG460s should do a good job. I wouldn't advise more than 2 mics. Even one can do the trick when you don't place the mic too close, about 2' gives a very natural sound. Let the violinist play in different places in the room(s) to find out if there are any 'sweet spots'.
Avoid the DI if possible, especially when you're going for a natural sound.
Be very careful for harshness! To avoid screeching you may even end up having to change mics or dampen the room to get rid of it when it happens. Record some and listen carefully to the result on the monitors (loud!). If you "hurt" you're doing something wrong. Of course EQ can help too.
Good luck!
jammyMember
Since: Jul 08, 2008
Jul 08, 2008 05:22 pm well, lonnie, the only suggestion i can give you is to ask the violinist to sit down, if he/she can, without comprimising thier style too much.
i say this because, when a fiddle player is ripping, i find they move around alot...which could do some wonky phazing of your recording.
i've tracked a violin before using a stereo x/y with the 414's, that i was really happy with. sounded sweet in the lows, and honky in the upper register. i put the mics over the head of violinist, (another reason i asked them to sit), about two and a half feet, because the way the sound leaves the instrument. but, im not very experienced so, take my suggestion with a grain of salt. you know your gear better then i do, so.....but, if i was picking out of your mic cabinet...it would be the 414's first. of course, i love those mics, so, i am a bit biased.
and have fun, thats my other advice.
:)
oh yeah i wouldnt use the DI at all, i find that wood instruments always seem to sound like boxes when they are direct. they need to "breathe"
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
Jul 08, 2008 05:35 pm Great suggestions guys! Thanks I appreciate it. Jammy, I'm really partial to the 414's as well. I think I will probably use a pair in XY as well.
Maybe I can tie the violinist to a chair. She doesn't normally get a lot of stage "real estate" so maybe she will stay put.
I'm really excited about this as I usually only record the basics like guitar, drums and bass. Violin will be good to have experience with.
I might even put down a PZM for shits and giggles.
Jul 08, 2008 05:54 pm Granted, I have no experience recording violin either, but if there's a pickup on the instrument, and you have an available track/input, then why not record it? Nothing to lose, much to gain. I always slap a cable into my acoustic guitar when I'm recording it with microphones. It's nice to have that extra part of the spectrum to blend in to get the sound you're looking for. Worst case...you don't use the track.
My two cents...
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
Jul 08, 2008 05:57 pm Yes, I will definately record the DI. Afterall you can always throw it away. Sometimes DI can be a bit harsh but when mixed together it might provide the bite needed for the mix.
Someone else mentioned mic'ing about 2.5 feet below the violin. I might place one there as well.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jul 08, 2008 09:09 pm I gotta get to a point at work I can come here during the day.
I'm always late for the good stuff.
jammyMember
Since: Jul 08, 2008
Jul 08, 2008 11:14 pm its true about DI'ing an instrument, but, something about putting a pick-up on a violin, or cello....just seems unnatural to me.
i say that and both my violin, and my cello have pickups.
:P
but, i always thought that it was hard to match the two sources up, the DI being an instant signal, and the mics having a slight delay .....very slight, albeit there.....
i never tried to DI either one......mabey i will...it just sounds so.....yuck to me.
:)
so Beerhunter, can you tell us about the session? how did it go?
NightcapVeni, MIDI, ViciMember
Since: Jul 02, 2008
Jul 08, 2008 11:23 pm I agree with you jammy. DI'ing e.g. a violin does not bring out the best of the instrument. However, when it fits the sound of a song I wouldn't be necessarily against it. You always have to have an open (musical) mind.
Well BeerHunter, any news??? I'm curious too!
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
Jul 09, 2008 03:11 am One song that we did turned out really, really well. She knows how to play. I'll do a quick mix (tonight) so you can hear it. Still need to track guitars and vocals (harmonies as well) so the song is quite incomplete...however, even for where this song is at it sounds great.
Mic choices ended up being AKG260 (coincident pair) and a KSM32 coming in from over her right shoulder about 2 and a half feet above the top of the violin.... I got a pic here as well.
Anyhow, got mixing to do....later
Keith WarrenMans reach exceeds his graspMember
Since: Oct 23, 2007
Jul 09, 2008 04:54 am That said Jammy, I believe an acoustic guitar to be unnatural in the DI realm as well, but Taylor has developed some awesome guitar body mics that tie into a DI system that convey the instrument pretty well. I'm not sure of the technical name, but I call them 'pressure mics' and they're pretty darn accurate. I would only assume that a violinist with a "DI" on the instrument would have something high end along these lines, and would be well worth it to record.
It may sound 'yuck' to you as a sole signal, but when mixed with multiple signals, it can create a type of harmony and tonal balance. Often times a DI or line in input can fix dull or voided spots in a certain signal. This is why when I record any type of instrument that's mic'd, I also use the input on said instrument of there is one. If it's an electric, I use the mic'd amp and the aux line out from the amp head. If it's an acoustic, I use the room mics and the line or DI output.
It can never hurt to have too many signals for one performance. It can only suffer if there are one too less. That's my golden standard. This is all IMHO, and may be wrong by others standards, but this is how I approach things. :)
jammyMember
Since: Jul 08, 2008
Jul 09, 2008 05:05 am youse are bringing me over to the dark side of DI. just foolin, i probably would have tried it sooner or later, but, i dont even like using the pickups on the violin or cello on the stage. i like those instruments as pure as possible, but a cello has a hard time keeping up with a snare, on a rock and roll stage... but, that is just me....i will try the DI on them sooner or later, its just, i only have two analogue ins, (i was hoping for four with the tascam, but still havent got my problem quite figured out yet), so, i'll stick to the mics for now.
a taylor is on my short list. the expression system is really a well thought out way to amplify an accoustic. i was absolutely floored the first time i plugged one in.
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
Jul 09, 2008 10:23 am Ok, rough mix has been uploaded. The song is called Camoflauge and it is in my profile.
Cheers,
Lonnie
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Jul 09, 2008 11:43 am Never a violin, but I recently recorded some acoustic guitar using the K2 and it's built in pickup. The pickup was way too bright and I had to turn the tone knob down almost 100%, but... when I mixed them together the sound was fantastic. I would say I used 80% mic 20% DI in the end result and was very pleased with it.
Alas, the mic'd tone was plenty all by itself and would be nice by itself or mixed with other instruments. But for a solo instrument I thought the DI added a nice hard edge to it, just made it stronger I guess you could say.
Have fun trying and let us know what you did in the long run.
Edit: Just noticed you have an upload, listening now... Guitar tone is awesome, drums are very fitting for the style. singer for the most part is very smooth, he does seem a bit flat at times, seems like he might have been holding back a tad in the beginning. If he projected a little more like he does towards the middle I think it would sound better, just my opinion of course and has nothing to do with your end of the deal :)
On the violin, it sounds damn good to my ears. Cuts throug well and sounds pretty much perfect for the style. Last but not least, when he starts riding that high hat during the violin solo, you may want to volume envelope it a tad to bring the level down, it seemed a bit harsh.
NightcapVeni, MIDI, ViciMember
Since: Jul 02, 2008
Jul 09, 2008 04:16 pm I agree with CptTripps on the high hat. It's fighting with the violin too much.
It's clear the singer showed some signs of nerves in the beginning, but he built himself up quite well. :-)
The violin sounds good, 'moaning' in the background.
Already sounds like a great song.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jul 09, 2008 07:35 pm Well, I've used DI's for years. While many of them I don't like I have used many good ones. My Hohner has a killer DI, but I still mic it. I have used many different units on String instruments with some bad and some good results. When they are good they are very good. But as I stated, I always use a mic or 2 or 3 to supplement the DI sound.
BH, I'll take a listen later or tomorrow.
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
Jul 09, 2008 11:25 pm Hi everyone... here is a shot of the violinist, Nikki. Very talented young lady. You can see in the picture the Shure KSM32 and the coincident pair of AKG460's.
I've uploaded a new version which has tuned vocals, a bit of automation and a tamed hi hat.
We still have to track guitars and vocals and will be in the studio on the 24th to complete it.
Jul 09, 2008 11:40 pm Glad to hear that you went with the KSM32's.
I use them on live performances for years now.
When ever I work with the Philadelphia Orchestra, or the Philly Pop's. I use the KSM 32, or 44's.
The only problem that I have is that classically trained violinist, hate the high end on the mic.
I personally love it. I think it sound killer. So, it always sets up a battle during sound check.
But, since I am out a FOH during their performance.... I win!
NightcapVeni, MIDI, ViciMember
Since: Jul 02, 2008
Jul 10, 2008 12:39 am Great to be able to hear the song in progress and to see the violinist.
Glad you fixed the hats!
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Jul 10, 2008 02:05 pm Everything sounds darn good, only thing I was missing was a little more volume on the violin during it's solo, but that's just me.
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
Jul 10, 2008 02:10 pm Hey Cpt, you are 100% on the violin solo volume. I was having problems with my automation and gave up. For whatever reason, the automation would not stick. Anyhow, gotta figure that one out still.
Thanks for the comments.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jul 10, 2008 09:06 pm Ooooooo, I hear an organ in there????
Yep the violin does needs to come up a bit on the solo. It could come up a bit as well during the main parts of the song as well. Just not as much as the solo.
Listening again it sounds a little bottom heavy on the whole mix, but it is still a rough mix yet so take that with a grain of salt or whatever.
I liked the tune though, and I'm not a country fan at all so that was good.
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
Jul 10, 2008 11:48 pm Hey noise, na, no organ....yet - lol... we still don't know where we are going with this. I just did a remix that puts most of the focus on the vocals and violin (got my automation fixed yay). Everything is tighter and it is getting to sound a bit more polished. The last bits that we want to do will really give it the little extra that it needs but we won't be tracking until the 24th.
Stay tuned ;-)
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Jul 11, 2008 01:50 pm Cool, can't wait to hear it. I bet this is a blast as it is not the norm us home studio gents run into. I wish someone would bring a violin to record at my house :)
Jul 11, 2008 02:34 pm Where'd it go?
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
Jul 11, 2008 02:37 pm I messed up. I went to change it to downloadable and somehow replaced it with nothing. I'll have to wait until I get home to upload it again. Sorry. :(
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jul 11, 2008 07:24 pm Ya, I wasn't sure if that was what I was hearing or not. I'll have to listen again to see what it was I was hearing in the background. It was probably in my head.
So there is a different mix up from what I listened to yesterday afternoon?
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
Jul 11, 2008 07:46 pm yes, the mix is different... I was able to get the automation working. It is uploaded now.
Jul 11, 2008 09:04 pm Hey that sounds great! I listen to a lot of this kind of music. I'd put it in the alt-country genre, a la Blue Rodeo or Cross Canadian Ragweed. I'd love to hear more from this group!
The violin sounds really good. I'd probably add a touch more reverb to it to give it that floating sound. She's a good player, you can tell that. Get the singer to nail down that lead vocal and you've really got something here!
Jim
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
Jul 11, 2008 09:47 pm Hi Jim, hey, they call themselves "Country Fried Rock" and this is kind of a mello tune for them. I have two more tracks to work on and they both have her shreading it up big time. I'm looking forward to working on them but this is the song I want to focus on right now.
Vox are still a tiny bit pitchy but a re-track is on the way. Same with the guitar. Retracks soon and we still haven't done the harmony vox yet. (I'd love to hear my daughter do some BGV but I dont' think that will happen).
Anyhow, this is more of a step by step thing so hopefully you guys are able to see and enjoy it as it develops. I'm trying to show examples of rooms and mics throughout this thread. I know it would have been helpful to me before I went into this - haha
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jul 11, 2008 10:08 pm Cool, if the electricity stays on I'll give a listen in a little bit. I think the storm is almost by us now. Unless the radar is lying.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jul 11, 2008 10:24 pm Wow, thats a big difference already. The vox are nice and clear now. I Like the drum kit, its got a nice country sound to it. The violin sounds super now and the drums and bass are nice and stout and clear. You can really hear the room on the drums, especially the brass. Probably a pluggin but its working whatever you did. The violin solo is kickin now. And that twangy distorted guitar fits in great as well.
Nice work on the automation, everything is pretty smooth now.
NightcapVeni, MIDI, ViciMember
Since: Jul 02, 2008
Jul 11, 2008 10:34 pm Can't add anything that hasn't been said, other than that I truly enjoy watching this song grow.
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
Jul 11, 2008 10:40 pm You guys are incredibly encouraging. I'm really feelin' this one come together as well. Ya, gotta know that when the raw tracks sound this good, something magical is going to happen... I hope... :)
Oh, btw - no plug-ins... this is very raw outside of panning and such... great musicians = great recordings
