Amp Miking
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Posted on May 27, 2007 05:12 pm
thesherlocks
Member Since: May 27, 2007
I'm recording an Demo/EP with my band to maybe sell at shows or give to friends or whatever and I've run into this problem: Whenever I record a guitar or bass track running through an amp, the sound I end up with sounds pretty muddy and not very full. I'm working with a Tascam 424MKIII and using sm58's for mic's. I realize my recording setup is fairly primitive, but we're running through an american strat, mexican strat, mexican P bass, 70s bassman and two fender hot rod deluxe's. I'm assuming the problem is mostly with mic placement and possibly the mic. Any tips or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
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May 27, 2007 05:14 pm A 57 is better than a 58, but, work with what you got...place it on the speaker, if you have two, maybe set up a second back a couple feet and blend the two...or try to A/B them and see what differences there are between the two locations.
Another thing to try is maybe put the amp in another room, it very well could be the room you are miking in.
Welcome to HRC.
May 27, 2007 05:26 pm If you are miking the bass amp, that could cause a lot of mud. You could try plugging the bass guitar directly into the mixer instead.
May 27, 2007 06:09 pm I'll try the two mikes for sure. The room could be part of it too, we've basically just transformed an old shed into a studio by adding a bit of carpet and a couch, and then seperating the room into three sections with furniture and amps. Should I have the first mike right on the speaker or more like 2-3 inches back? Also, would removing the grill on the mike help at all? Thanks for all the help guys!
May 27, 2007 06:21 pm I wouldn't put the mic directly on the speaker. The sound from the amp needs some space to develop. Removing the windscreen (grill) won't make much difference in miking a guitar amp.
VCRobPMember
Since: May 10, 2007
May 27, 2007 11:37 pm If you have enough separation in the space between the listening position and where the amp is,,,try having someone move the mic around while someone is playing through it while you're at the listening position. When you hear the magic then take notes and measurements of the mic position etc... to duplicate it again later. Also if you dont have the amp off of the floor get it up onto some milk crates or whatever at least a foot or two off of the floor.
May 28, 2007 12:06 am That too. I love it when questions are answered by themselves.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
May 28, 2007 01:23 am Every speaker cab is different. I have found with my SWR 6x10 bass, one tap on from the back of the head (DI out), one condenser aimed at an angle toward the horn (about a foot away) and a D112 aimed at an angle at the sound port (deep bottom) give me a great amount of lattitude in the mix. On a fender twin I will take both DI's one condenser to rear (fullness) and one to front (screatching highs) provide a real good palet of tones. It really is about a lot of experimenting. If you don't have help, just take notes and record a lot of short sound clips of different mic placement. Try placing some dampening material directly behind the amp and directly behind each mic to inhibit out of phase reflected sound. At the same time don't box in the whole cab with dampening material, let the air move.
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
May 28, 2007 09:30 am I've heard (read) a few times, that on recorded media, less distortion works better. The amount you think sounds good coming out of the amp turns to mud when played back. WYD has recorded a lot of distorted gtrs, and has said that several times.
Try recording two mics, like said above, but then EQ the two tracks quite different, boosting the one that adds airy-ness and detail.
Or, try to record in a dry track, or a clean track with only reverb, delay, or chorus (all light). Blend this in to add detail and articulation.
Or, when recording tracks, try to get 1 recorded from one type of distortion, and a second recorded from a different, lighter type of distortion, then also get a third clean, if possible. The clean one can be direct, as it probably won't be the focal point of the sound.
On my super reverb, I can patch out of 1 channel and into another amp, using the #2 input on each channel. Yours may do the same, as a cheap (free) and easy way to get another signal.
Like Walt said, it really is about expirementing. Spend an afternoon, with sole intent of finding new ways to make good sounds. You'll probably come up with different combinations that you'll want to use elsewhere too.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
May 28, 2007 10:32 am pkj,
I'm really glad to see your tip on distortion. And in my humble opinion it goes beyond even recorded media. Our guitar player insists on having distortion layered thick as a brick at all times. Our manager has complained about it at gigs especially smaller venues where the sound can 'swell up' in a room. What a god awfull mess to deal with in a mix! The first thing on everything he does is atack the mess with a PSP warmer (2 band compresser) to diminish the 500hz mud swell or maybe swill? Now ya got me goin. I'm gonna look around and see if I can't find an article on this and try to gently present it to him.
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
May 28, 2007 10:43 am There is a really good article that can be found on this one website that I go to all the time for great info.
www.homerecordingconnecti...tory&id=140
The only thing I would add is to keep a lot of detailed notes. I am currently using a spreadsheet to keep things in order. By writing down all the details when you do get that magical sound you will be able to reproduce it anytime. Sometimes I want to be able to recreate the exact tone that we had on a different song. Just flip to the notes and away you go (in theory anyways). It will get you very close though.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
May 28, 2007 07:05 pm Agree with the experimenting part. Every room is different from the next. Which means the mic may have to move slightly depending on the room.
As for the difference between the 57 and 58 mic. There is a slight difference if you remove the windscreen from the 58, it does help lean it a bit more toward the sound of the 57. You must be extremely careful though when doing this as the diaphragm will be exposed. Though if you work with it the 58 as is will get a pretty good sound all on its own, the removal of the windscreen opens it up a little to allow a bit better response when miking an amp.
My 2 cents on the mic placement. I generally start with the close mic just inside of the speaker mounting ring about 1" from the grill and then pointing it toward the center of the speaker cone. My normal set up will also include a good condenser mic placed somewhere from 3" on out from the cabinet. You will need to take care to listen for pahse issues with a 2 mic set up though to avoid canceling out frequencies.
And lastly, I have to agree completely that raising the cabinet off the floor is a must. Use a folding chair or milk crate. I recommend staying away from soft items like cardboard boxes and the like as the tend to absorb lower frequencies.
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
May 28, 2007 09:56 pm There was that one article, by that foul mouthed guy, that WYD and Tadpui mentioned. That engineer would first find the best sounding speaker, then he would have someone move the mic around on the speaker while guitar guy plays. Then the engineer would have the git player stop when the sound was the best. Then lock down the mic, and record the position, if you want to do it again.
Neat stuff, that article, funny read, and informative.
I agree Walt, too much distortion is certainly not better. I've toyed with heavy stuff, and unless your totally into the heavy thick stuff, and I always end up going back to lighter, for more detail.
May 29, 2007 09:25 pm We have been putting our amps up on milk crates at shows and rehearsal for a while. It definetly makes a difference and I think it also helps each guitar player hear how loud they really are.
Moving the Mic around and experimenting sounds like a good idea. When I set up one mike facing the ceiling in between two guitar amps, the tone sounded way better, but that would be really hard to mix.
Any suggestions on Miking the drums with one mic? There are more inputs on my 4 track but they all bounce on to one of the original 4 tracks, so that as well is kind of difficult to mix. I'll keep experimenting though!
Thanks for all the reply's!
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
May 30, 2007 10:46 pm I'll touch on the one mic drum set up. I will use a large diaphragm condenser and place it starting about 4 feet out from the kit. Approximate height is about 4 to 10 inches above the top of the kick drum. The exact location will depend on the room and how the kit is located. I will try and locate the kit in a corner as a general rule otherwise I have had good luck centering it between the sidewalls and keeping the back near the back wall. You will probably need to mess with the mic height and distance away from the kit depending on the kit size as well.
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
May 31, 2007 11:10 am Regarding the drums, I'm with Noise. If I only had one mic I would use a LDC about 4 or 5 feet out. Noise mentions to have the mic about 4 to 10 inches above the kick. I tend to tilt that mic down about 30 degrees though but I'm sure the room has a lot to with the angling I use. I have moved the kit around in my live room to every possible position and the position that worked best in the end was with the drummers back almost touching the middle of the back wall. I tried using the corners of the room but found that the hi hat reflections were really hard to tame.
As for mic'ing an amp I have many times mic'd the back of the amp with a 3rd mic as well.
pjk: do you have a link to that article? I know which one you are talking about but I haven't been able to find it. One of the things that this guy mentions is that you should get your ear right down by the speaker to determine the sweetspot. I have done this and without a doubt there is locations on the speaker that sound a lot better than others. This is a lot harder to do by yourself. If you have help I suggest that you monitor the mics while someone else plays and a third person can then move the mic(s) around until you hear the sweetspot.
As for distortion, you have to back off on it when recording. It may sound really good in the room but there will be way to much distortion on the recorded track. Just get it sounding good in the room and then back it off a bit (I donno, say 10%)
