interesting local news story...

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Administrator Since: Apr 03, 2002

to prevent people from having to register at our local news site I have copied the story (which came from www.kare11.com ):

A 74-year-old man who chased down a thief and held him at gunpoint until authorities arrived now faces a charge more serious than the thief himself.

Kenneth Englund, an Isanti County farmer and Township Board member for 37 years, is charged with second-degree assault, a felony. The thief, who the sheriff said admitted to stealing about $5 worth of gasoline from Englund's neighbor, was charged with misdemeanor theft.

Sheriff Mike Ammend said people can't take the law into their own hands, and that Englund's actions were "an invitation to a shootout. There's so many things that could have gone wrong here."

On Oct. 15, Englund pointed a gun at Christian Harris Smith, 28, and a woman at the vacant farm next to Englund's place. He then chased their vehicle at speeds of 70 mph, according to the criminal complaint. A 3-year-old child was in the vehicle.

During the chase, Englund used a cell phone to call the sheriff's office and asked if he should "blow them away," according to the complaint. His shotgun turned out to be unloaded.

Englund pleaded not guilty, was released without bail and is scheduled to return to court Feb. 22.

Smith was charged with another theft and was held in the county jail on a felony warrant from another state.

More than 350 people attended a fundraising dinner for Englund last month and a petition has circulated supporting his case.

Still, Ammend said, there was danger, especially since a woman and child were in the vehicle: "What happens if there was a crash?"

Chief Deputy County Attorney Dan Conlin said no one is looking to put Englund in jail, calling that idea "silly." He also said while the charge fits the facts of the case, it doesn't need to be resolved as a felony.

People who use force to protect property haven't always fared well in court.

In a 1983 case, a jury ruled that a Holloway man should pay $77,000 to a burglar he chased down and shot in the foot. The case was settled for half that or less; the burglar got probation.

In 1999, a Red Wing man received six months in jail after he booby-trapped his Wisconsin cabin and injured a burglar. According to media reports, the Iowa Supreme Court upheld $30,000 in damages against the owner of a booby-trapped abandoned farmhouse in 1978, and a California homeowner was convicted of assault with a deadly weapon when his spring gun shot a teenage burglar in 1974.

In Englund's case, some of his neighbors who are concerned about rising crime have been his supporters.

Richard Hansen, chairman of the Bradford Township Board, said crime has risen so much that board meetings have drawn crowds of about 50 people, and a committee was formed to meet with the sheriff and county attorney. The township, about 45 miles north of Minneapolis, does not have a police force.

Barbara Ford, of Ham Lake, who owns the land where the theft took place, said she's had attempted break-ins.

"I'll do anything I can to support Mr. Englund," she said.

Englund said criminals can escape by the time a deputy arrives from Cambridge, the county seat, about 14 miles away.

The sheriff said his department is understaffed -- with 14 deputies to patrol 440 miles of roads.

"We want people's help, we need their help (calling with information), but we don't want people taking the law into their own hands," he said.

(Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)

A bill introduced at the Legislature would give citizens the right to defend themselves with deadly force against intruders -- even when they have the option of retreating.

Two Republican lawmakers introduced the bill today. Representative Tony Cornish calls the measure the "Stand Your Ground" legislation and says it's about protecting homeowners and property owners.

Foes call it a "shoot first, ask questions later" proposal that would bring a cowboy attitude to Minnesota.

Under current law, it's justifiable to kill someone in your house if you fear the person will cause you great bodily harm or death -- or to prevent a felony.

The proposal would allow people to use deadly force if there is a fear of substantial bodily harm.


An interesting facet of this story that people seem to not mention is that this area has a fast growing meth production problem, the crime is rising exponentially and the police (one sheriff) is a member of the local "good ol' boys" club that pretty much watches out for his own and that not much else and hasn't helped curb the problem, nor could he even if he tried considering the growing population. People are getting fed up and this old dude finally got pissed watching his neighbor get robbed and did something about.

So, Englund was the guy posing the danger cuz he had a gun, with a woman and child in the theifs car, they don't say anything about this theivin looser commit crimes like this with his child in the car.

A good friend of mine lives in this area and told me the story a couple days before it hit the wires, it's been interesting to watch it develop.

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Ne'er ate 'er
Member
Since: Apr 05, 2006


Feb 19, 2007 12:17 pm

We've a so-called "make my day" law here in CO for 20 years or so. It allows us to use deadly force in the home such cases. Since the law has been in effect, there hasn't been any uproar over its use or misuse that I can recall. Some state lawmakers are trying to get it expanded for applicability in automobiles as well, and that's been controversial because it's thought it could lead to misuse, i.e. excuses for drive-by shootings, etc.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Feb 19, 2007 01:26 pm

Yeah, most states have some sort of protecting your property type laws like that, including Minnesota, but it's always cases like this that bring out the gun control nuts. One should not take the law into their own hands, but, at the same time are obligated to if the law enforcement isn't doing it's job, regardless of the reason they aren't.

Not too long ago an old dude shot a kid that was in his bedroom when he woke up. They said the kid thought it was an abandoned house and so forth but really it doesn't matter, it wasn't that kids house he had no business being in it, and if I was an older person (keep your jokes to yourselves youngin's :-) and had some young teen at the foot of my bed in the middle of the night I'd be protecting myself too...

Does make me wonder why the gun was thAt easily and quickly accessible tho...but that's another discussion.

Point is, that dude wasn't charged with anything, this guy in the above story was protecting his neighbors property, not his own, which I assume is what will make the difference.

Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003


Feb 19, 2007 05:23 pm

the most obvious thing about the story, though, is that the theft was five dollars worth of gasoline and the guy was asking if he 'should blow them away.'

hard to have sympathy for the guy because of that. if the particulars of the case were different, i'd be taking his side probably.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Feb 19, 2007 05:27 pm

I am laying pretty good odds the guy had no idea what the dude had already stolen, much less how much gas...the main jist of it in my mind is the fact these people are sick and friggin tired of getting robbed with a lazy, corrupt police force that doesn't do a damn thing to help them. If you can't have sympathy for people in that situation, then that is very sad and I pity you.

How many people that do have a gun on somebody don't play the "I'm gonna blow your head off" card for intimidation tactics, I mean seriously, I'd say, umm everybody.

Ne'er ate 'er
Member
Since: Apr 05, 2006


Feb 19, 2007 05:32 pm

What I didn't mention about the law in our state is that it gives the right to use deadly force in any case where you believe the person entering your house is about to commit a felony, not just if you fear for your life. This would include stealing your TV or your years' supply of toilet paper, I assume.

But yeah, five bucks in gas... sounds like the fella has some issues of his own. Some people shouldn't have guns (that'll piss off dB) :-0

Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003


Feb 19, 2007 05:34 pm

i didnt say i didn't have sympathy for people in that situation. but the solution would be to get a functioning police force, i'd think.

the fact that the guy would actually ask the officer if he should blow them away points to something wrong in the guy's brain. no officer is going to say 'yeah, go ahead' and any reasonable person would know that. it kind of shows that the guy is a little out of touch with reality.

you're probably right, though, in saying that the guy didn't know what the guy had taken. that i'll buy.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Feb 19, 2007 05:56 pm

Herb is right, some people shouldn't have guns, my first place to start would be criminals that have a violent criminal history, oh, wait, we already have that, works well...so, the other choice is to have law abiding citizens armed as well.

Forty, you are right, a functioning police force is always the right answer, but a lot more difficult to fix quickly, owning a gun is easy and quick, then take care of yourself.

The fact it's five dollars in gas is moot, this guy saw his neighbor getting ripped off, and it's likely that's all he knew...and in reality, that's all he had to know.

I will cut the guy a little slack on the "blow his head off" thing for many reasons...one being he is on old man trying to hold a young man at bay, I am guessing his adrenaline was racing like crazy. Secondly he is an old school farm boy, likely he was raised with a different mentality and different sense of self-preservation than all the friggin pansy-asses america has bred since.

Personally I think we need more (sane) people that will stand up like this and stop putting up with this **** and start taking care of ourselves. Crime and violence is growing at an alarming rate as feel-good-but-do-nothing laws get passed by people who have no concept of the problem from their ivory towers.

Eventually, a civil war will erupt...not in our lifetime probably...but it will.

Ne'er ate 'er
Member
Since: Apr 05, 2006


Feb 19, 2007 06:15 pm

The other obvious option is to live as far away from high crime areas as possible. I haven't owned a firearm in years, and feel pretty safe. I also have a Louisville Slugger that speaks my language.

Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003


Feb 19, 2007 06:24 pm

law abiding citizens with guns. you know on the one hand i approve of this. the old west is among my top three picks as far as historical times in which to live. but in today's culture, i dunno man. expect a lot more 'mistakes' made by gun owners as they pick up their 'piece' in an adrenal haze, with a virtual flag waving in their mind's eye as they go and chase and shoot down, say, a 14 year old boy who they've told to stay off the lawn one too many times.

www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,188570,00.html

that guy was obviously crazy. he just happened to have a gun. no blame toward guns here with that story. but i needed an example.

and how about that wedding bacehelor party thing with the cops last year? seems like people get a gun in their hands and they're just prone to overreacting and making mistakes. the sad thing about that story is that it was a tragedy, and yet the debate centers around whether the cops 'had the right' given what they only thought was happening.

so imagine a homeowner making a really very bad mistake and killing a complete innocent. in the aftermath, imagine how the stupidity of what had happened being lost amongst arguments to the tune of 'yeah, well i had the right. sorry, but the meter man shouldn't have been creeping around in the bushes like that.'

haha sorry im just playing devil's advocate. i'm not as against guns as i might seem here. i just really think that that man was not thinking. his query to the cops was insane, there's no other way to put it. there will be a lot more episodes like that, as well as a lot of crime stopped. it goes both ways. it depends on what you value. me, i'm in the middle. i just hate to see people acting *stupid* and then trying to justify a stupid mistake by hiding behind the law.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Feb 19, 2007 06:26 pm

Well, that isn't always an option either...some people can't just up and move for a variety of reasons. It certainly is an option, but not always a viable one.

I haven't been without a gun in my residence for well, ever since I've been alive I think...but then, I raised by a sportsman that taught me how to handle and respect the weapon for what it is...and I suspect that is likely how this farmer was raised as well, or else he may have actually shot the thief.

That's the trouble with society today is that the kids that have guns often are not taught to respect it, but rather as a tool to get them respect...or fear...or power...or whatever.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Feb 19, 2007 06:27 pm

This thread/page is bringing up some interesting Google ads :-D

Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003


Feb 19, 2007 06:28 pm

oh and i can't find the story right now, but there was a story last week about a guy in kentucky or something. he killed his friend. thought the guy was breaking in. he didn't stop to think. shoot first ask questions later. he was on fox news, said he felt terrible about it, but he thought his house was being broken into.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Feb 19, 2007 06:31 pm

I agree, society today, with the ingrained lack of personal responsibility, more stressful fast paced lives, greed and just overall ignorance, it does make it more of a crap shoot...I completely agree with you there.

One thing I know is this, I have guns, and I would rather have a world where I am free to keep them legally because legal or not, the people to really worry about will find them.

Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003


Feb 19, 2007 06:32 pm

not really related:

recently i was eating a sandwich on my friend's floor. he thought it was fun to aim an unloaded gun at me. i hadn't seen him check the cartridge. i said 'don't aim that thing in my general direction; i'm not kidding around, dude.' he's like 'relax, it's not loaded.' i said i didn't want to have a gun aimed at me while eating and that maybe he could possibly understand that, and that while he believed it wasn't loaded, i had no way of knowing, so knock it the hell off. he was showing the gun to someone else. finally i got up and went into the basement and stood there eating my sandwich, fuming.


Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Feb 19, 2007 06:39 pm

Ya, see, it's ****** idiots like that who shouldn't have guns.

I had a halloween party a few years back, I went as Clint Eastwood, got a big ol' .44 strapped on my hip..ya know, with the 10" or so barrel...after everyone was drunk people are trying to take it out to play with it...I knew it wasn't loaded, but loaded or not isn't the issue...ya just don't friggin play with guns, it's that simple.

Ne'er ate 'er
Member
Since: Apr 05, 2006


Feb 19, 2007 06:47 pm

From the Gear Gab forum:

[quote]yikes, making mimimum wage in one of the most expensive states has to be rough...get the heck of the left coast and go somewhere that has a better cost of living. :-)

That should be your first step.[/quote]

From this thread:

Quote:
Well, that isn't always an option either...some people can't just up and move for a variety of reasons. It certainly is an option, but not always a viable one.


Got a chuckle outa that.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Feb 19, 2007 07:05 pm

hehehe, yeah, good chuckle.

Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003


Feb 19, 2007 07:10 pm

eastwood is about the best possible costume. i haven't done that one yet. i would if i could get all the right materials. did you get the correct poncho and the correct hat? i'm sure you used the cigarillos...

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Feb 19, 2007 07:43 pm

oh, hell yeah, it was about the best clint I could get, awesome poncho, great hat (fortuantely my dad and father in law are both avid gun collectors and fans of old west memorabilia) and had a big ol cigar hangin outta my mouth all night...

Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003


Feb 19, 2007 11:58 pm

where can one get that poncho and hat?

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Feb 20, 2007 07:13 am

at any flea market in the southwest US area...

Eat Spam before it eats YOU!!!
Member
Since: May 11, 2002


Feb 20, 2007 07:52 am

yeah, I think 4th graders should have a mandatory hunter safety class.

If I'm out with a gun in public I usually remove the bolt... of course I've had bolt action bolts confused with pistols too... I was taking my mauser to Antiuqes Roadshow and it was supprising to see the reaction of 'cityfolk' to a rifle... I parked in a bad part of town and it was like they never saw a gun before...

However when I got into the roadshow I was told I was the only person to properly disable their firearm.

But yeah, if a friend was pointing a gun at me that didn't have a blank adapter on it I'd probably punch them... even if I checked it myself.

I've had rounds get lodged in the magizin many times... especially on stockfeed rifles. first time it happened I was probably in 3rd grade playing at home with m dads .22 rifle shooting people on TV (dry fireing) and then I recharged the rifile after about 10 dry fires and noticed 'something different'..so I recharged, ejecting a round...and put the rifle back in my dads office

One of he scareyest moments of my life was during my last week of Basic Training during the cattlecar ride out to the FTX. We were packed in and it was 3am ...the trailer hit a bump and *bang* ...imagine fitting 60 guys on a livestock trailer and discharging a firearm when nobody is supposed to have ammnition...then try and figure out if someone is dead.


I'm also on of hose 'cold dead hands' gun owners... just not as scarey.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Feb 20, 2007 08:00 am

Mauser's are great guns, man, that's my deer rifle, an old military style bolt action 8mm Mauser. Love that rifle. That one is at my dad's in his gun safe, only strategically hidden handguns in my house these days, until the kids are older. Dad has my 20 gauge shotgun too...

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Feb 21, 2007 07:19 am

All charges against Mr. Englund have been dropped.

it should also be noted after listening to 911 tapes, interviewing the suspects and Mr. Englund, it was found he never actually did threaten anyone like the news reports all said...again, the media distorts and embellishes everything.

Eat Spam before it eats YOU!!!
Member
Since: May 11, 2002


Feb 21, 2007 09:42 am

ooo...now he can sue the media for libel.. big money there...

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Feb 21, 2007 09:46 am

yeah, but if you've ever heard or seen the guy, he doesn't look like the suin' type...really old school farmer dude. probably workin' his fingers to the bone for his whole life...

Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003


Feb 21, 2007 05:28 pm

ah well that embellishment is sucky, then

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Feb 24, 2007 08:44 pm

I've said it before and I'll say it again, and again, and again. The modern media for the most part are a bunch of idiot moron's. Blowing every little thing they can out of proportion in any way shape or form. Just to get viewers sucked in.

Someone needs to explain why a couple of the hooky dateline type shows have shown nothing but internet perverts getting busted for more the a year now. It's all good that they expose it happening and love to see these guys busted as do I. But come on, find something else to put on your show for gods sake. That is one beg reason I don't watch network TV at all anymore, I can't stand the idiotic hype anymore.

Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003


Feb 24, 2007 10:20 pm

" Blowing every little thing they can out of proportion in any way shape or form. Just to get viewers sucked in."

yeah, but the reason it's like that is because they're feeding our demand. ratings show that we WANT to watch crap. we want drama. fox news just today revealed that their ratings have been spiking beyond belief anytime that crazy judge in the anna nicole case is on live in the courtroom. and for the record, the reason i mainly watch fox is because they walk the line between trash and news. they make the news seem exciting; they gave it some attitude.




Ne'er ate 'er
Member
Since: Apr 05, 2006


Feb 24, 2007 10:44 pm

Herb's Big Fat Opinion

Simple instinct. Insecure people have an inherent desire to know that famous people share their insecurities. And insecurity sells! Think of it. If the profits from the hair loss remedies, weight loss scams, wrinkle creams, male enhancement products, and all the rest of the vanity merchandising were combined, we could finance another war!

If it were up for a vote, I would suggest the financing of a war on narcissism. Forget drugs.




Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003


Feb 25, 2007 02:44 am

people like to see people messing up. schadenfreude! american idol! dateline!

Member
Since: Aug 13, 2005


Feb 25, 2007 05:59 am

I do some gigs with a crazy trumpet player who has been aged 65 forever, who used to carry a gun as part of his stage outfit.At one gig he was trying to talk to the crowd when a punk guy heckler kept giving him grief,after some words exchanged the trumpeter said " Thats it you're gonna get it" then stepped off the stage ,pulled his gun out and fired it at the punks chest!The punk drops to the floor and the crowd were gobsmacked.When he got back on the mike he said "next time it will be a live bullet" The mad thing was he used to carry the live rounds as well as blanks! The punk was really quiet after.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Feb 28, 2007 10:10 pm

Well there not feeding my demand as I don't watch much if any network TV crap at all. Gimme real substance and tell me if its gonna friggin rain, snow or melt the tar on my driveway. I simply got sick of watching the same crap year after year on that box. Now its either SPEED channel, Discovery, TLC, History channel and the like. With the occasional VH1 Classics channel viewing of some old stuff that just reminds me how old I really am.

Member
Since: Aug 13, 2005


Mar 01, 2007 12:02 pm

You can't be old cause I saw you on Family Guy having a 'drink of milk'!!

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Mar 04, 2007 12:12 am

Don't be telling everybody about my guest appearance on that show. Someone might get the idea I'm a sell out.

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