May 13, 2005 02:04 pm tried boosting at around 20hz?
bass and kick feel
Posted on May 13, 2005 01:53 pm
sticadokid
*sticado: short and LOUD!*
Member Since: Feb 25, 2005
ok i dont think any of u guys can help me with this problem (considering i have really crappy equipment) but ill try.
i want to get the most of my kick drum out but i cant. i especially want the feel of it (u know when listening to pro recordings u can feel the pressure of the kick on ur chest). i can get everything else to sound great but this main part of the music... same with the bass guitar.
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May 13, 2005 02:04 pm tried boosting at around 20hz?
May 13, 2005 02:08 pm Ah, my friend, are you using compression? Compression actually gives the kick and bass some punch!
May 13, 2005 02:10 pm stick the mic all the way inside the kick drum about 3 inches from the beater head...
May 13, 2005 02:30 pm also, i've found the kick is strong around 80hz, and i rolloff about 8db's around 40hz, and be sure to cut the bass guitar at around 80-100hz, this will let the kick poke through, again i roll the bass guitar off around 6db at 60hz...it's all muck down that way. if you want more 'chest smack' play around with the 150-300hz range.
May 13, 2005 02:33 pm Hey WYD,
Do you point it straight at the head, dead center or do you offset/angle (sorry no technical terms out of this noob...yet)? I haven't tried it this far in yet. I'm only putting the mic about 2 inches in.
Thanks
May 13, 2005 02:35 pm 1. Compression is your friend - See above
2. EQ....EQ...EQ... - See above
3. Get a free plug-in called "Baxxpander" - It's cool.
That "pressure on the chest" think is all frequency driven. Even at low volumes, it can happen with the right EQ. Try a parametric equalizer rather than a graphic EQ, I've found it can zero in on those frequencies.
Obviously, having the bass and drum parts synched together is a big thing! The tighter they play, the harder the thud. I love the "tuned kick drum" sound. Where the kick and bass are so well locked together, it just sounds like the kick is playing the notes.
May 13, 2005 02:43 pm quote: "again i roll the bass guitar off around 6db at 60hz...it's all muck down that way. if you want more 'chest smack' play around with the 150-300hz range."
i got good results with the kick boosted at 60 and cut at 80, and the bass guitar boosted at 80 and cut at 60. that gave me a real thumping sound. it is the sound, i've determined, from the nirvana album 'in utero' which as you probably know is a thumping album.
but the way quoted above is probably the most common way of doing things. sometimes i do it that way too.
May 13, 2005 02:54 pm really it depends on tuning, and overall setup (amp) and what not...my project uses a 5 string tuned to A so it's real flabby down there, but if it's in standard or even a 4 string, i can see where that would sound good....you gotta search out those 'majik frequencies'
as for aiming, this really helps if you have a two friends help...one to kick the drum consistantly, one to place the mic, and you to monitor (in a seperate room)....start dead center pointing directly at the beater....as you move back from the head, you'll get less impact (click) go to the left or the right now, and you'll get more boom (shell resonance) i usually place the mic about 1/4 of the way from the shell (the middle point between the center of the head and the outer shell) and angle the mic tward the beater....there's alotta different tones to get by movin' the mic around....if you've got good monitors or even headphones, you'll hear a sweet spot or two.
May 13, 2005 03:00 pm Should I have any pillows (or whatever) inside?
May 13, 2005 03:04 pm i hafta say depends on the context of the music you're recording, and the sound you want....just like with guitars, you want the kick to sound PERFECT before you even hit record, this goes placing the kit in different spots of a room (corners are good for bass buildup) but yeah if it's a jazz standard, no pillow is necessary, but if you're wantin' a good "thud" then some kinda dampening is needed....get the drum sounding how you want it to sound before you record it.
May 13, 2005 03:17 pm Thanks. We play mostly R&R (leaning a bit to the metal side).
I wasn't sure about the pillow. We just thought it made it sound better in the room that we play in. I'm glad to hear that others use pillows as well and that I haven't been making some sort of noob mistake.
Thanks again for the advice. I'm going to try out your suggestions and see if we can get the kick to cut through the mix better. I'm finding the kick to be the most difficult part of the kit to capture.
May 13, 2005 04:19 pm More on EQ and compression for the kick;
-Try boosting around 2khz for more of the beater smack (works mainly in metal type songs)
-For compression, an attack of around 15 to 30 for me works super well for getting a lot of the punch.
-For muffling, try Tone Foam ($10). It works much better than a pillow (IMO). It gives the drum a real nice tone, while still muffling the ring.
As everyone else has said, be sure to tune first. When I was starting out, I didn't realize the easiest way to get a good sound was to spend time tunning...not messing with EQ.
Good luck
May 13, 2005 04:23 pm good call josh, also for more click, turn the beater to the plastic side, wicked Fear Factory sound (minus the 9 layers of samples ofcourse)
May 13, 2005 05:14 pm The biggest help to me with kick and bass sound was when I learned about compression. You can compress both of them fairly heavily, because most of the time you don't need a lot of dynamic in your kick and bass... it sounds normal for them to stay pretty constant thru the whole song.
The second biggest help was EQ. When I learned to subtract from the kick where I was boosting the bass, and vice versa, they really seemed to gel together a lot more. Both of them cut thru, but at the same time they meshed into a rhythm section instead of seperate instruments (as long as your drummer and bass player are tight, that is)
May 13, 2005 05:17 pm I'm still waiting on a buddy of mine to get back with me for his kick setup (for an earlier thread), but he's "busy". He's got a small, deep kick shell, heads on both sides, tuned higher than would seem logical, and some damping with a blanket inside. He gets a good "BOOM" that cuts through, with that wonderful "THUD", without the after-ring I'd always heard with the 2nd head on a kick. When he described how he set it up when I saw him about 2 months ago, it sounded rather tedious, trying to get the damping inside set and tune the heads every time he made an adjustment, but it sounds fantastic. He also had a different mallet on the pedal... can't remember if he said a softy or a hardy... (sounds double-entendre)
May 13, 2005 05:23 pm Oh I almost forgot...I heard somewhere (I think in a modern drummer issue)that if you tape a quarter to where the beater hits the head, inside the drum, so the beater isnt actually touching the quarter, you get a real punchy sound also.
May 13, 2005 05:44 pm Hell, I have said that same thing at least a half-dozen times in this very forum. Put it on the opposite side of the head from where the beater hits it (otherwise you'll just pound it right through the head). That works very well for separating double-kicks as well...
May 13, 2005 05:50 pm "if you tape a quarter to where the beater hits the head"
Thanks for the tip. My drummer is going to think I have lost my mind :)
May 14, 2005 09:01 am as a drummer the biggest help to my kick sound was the use of triggers :) SONAR 2 can do it with "extract timeing" and then run the midi note into a softsynth. absofreak'n amazing for punk and hardcore.
May 14, 2005 12:17 pm Quarter thing is awesome, can wear out the head faster though. But worth it to record.
My buddy the drummer started using triggers. Very sweet when you don't have access to a compressor.
May 15, 2005 02:36 am I read an article that if you cut a circle of foam backed carpet 6"diam then place that on the inside of the head this really halps the lo punch presure you are looking for. I tried it and it certainly halps but like the previous threads get your drum sounding the best you can b4 you hit the big red button.
May 17, 2005 01:37 pm thanks a lot guys... theres only two things i want to know about now... how does a compresser really work for the kick (like, what does the attack/threshold/release and all that really mean). and about what zekthedeadcow said... how do i use triggers if i dont have a module? can i even do this? cuz if i can, it'll make my life SOOOOOO much easier.
also, i found the weirdest technique online at my friends house... tape a mic to the body of the bass and wire it to the mixer, use the line out of the amp to the mixer, and mic the cab to get some really good sound. im not sure because i havent tried it but i though u all would think thats a little interesting huh...
May 17, 2005 02:24 pm Yes, blending a direct signal and a mic'd cabinet signal from a bass guitar will yield a great tone. I dunno about taping a mic to the bass, it seems that you'd end up with too much clatter from the movements necessary for handling and playing a bass. I heard dB say he likes to put an additional mic on the bass as if it were an acoustic guitar (pointed somewhere on the neck) just to pick up the string rattle and buzzing, but I prefer to keep those sounds out of my bass sound...its just a matter of preference.
As for kick, I just EQd and compressed my first kick drum last night, and I'm very pleased with the results. Nobody can really give you exact settings for a compressor because every case is a bit different. Just keep the attack very fast and the release pretty fast, and the rest will be up to what your particular kick sounds like.and what you want it to sound like after processing.
Here's my only other bit of advice: be careful listening to all of these people telling you boost this frequency and that frequency. Boosting any frequency can easily turn your mix into a disaster. Try cutting all the other frequencies, leaving only the desired frequency. I promise, you'll have fewer problems with clipping and keeping your entire mix under control.
I found that with the particular kick drum that I mixed last night, there were 3 key frequencies that each play a different role in the sound of the kick:
- The "thump" was at around 80 Hz. I wanted this to be the dominant sound of the drum.
- The "resonance" was at around 400 Hz. I did not want this in the sound of the drum at all.
- I can't remember off-hand where the beater "smack" was, but I also wanted this to be a dominant sound in the kick.
- all other frequencies, I dropped out of the kick drum altogether (as well as my EQ plugin would let me, at least).
Well, there's one man's opinion. With that, some flour and some water, you can make bread.
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