My personal preamp shootout -- FYI
Home > Home Recording Forum > Gear Gab > My personal preamp shootout -- FYI
Posted on Jun 29, 2005 01:28 am
PorpoiseMuffins
a.k.a. Porp & Mr. Muffins
Member Since: Oct 09, 2002
I went out to Guitar Center today where I picked up a $300 Focusrite Platinum Trackmaster Pro microphone preamplifier to try out at home (The Trackmaster is the same as one channel of the TwinTrack and the same preamp that is in the Voicemaster). I just got a bunch on money as a result of my high school graduation, and I wanted to pick up the most expensive preamp I could so that I could take it for an unbiased spin. When I got home I set up an A/B comparison between all my current preamps and the Focusrite. I had my mother (nice female voice) sing the same thing over and over again for about a half an hour while I experimented recording through the different preamps. I used both my Groove Tubes GT66 large diaphragm condenser microphone ($500) and a classic Shure SM57 ($80) on the preamps. I can confidently say that there was virtually no difference in sound quality between the built in preamps on my Echo Layla 3G and the Focusrite. My ART TPS preamp ($140) posesses a slightly less open, darker sound than both the other units (Kind of muffled, really). My Behringer MX series board's preamps sounded slightly different from the Layla's and Focusrite. The Behringer sounded a bit thinner.
My conclusion? I'm taking the Focusrite back and I'm glad! Don't get me wrong-- It sounds great-- but no better than the preamps in my Layla 3G and only slightly "better" (It's kind of subjective) than the ART TPS and my Behringer mixer. I really believe that a lot of this preamp stuff is hype. What I did notice is that while using an SM57, all 4 preamps sounded identical. The only time I heard the differences was while using my Groove Tubes GT66 condenser mic, which sounded quite a bit better than the '57 on vocals no matter what preamp I was using. I also tried monitoring the Focusrite without going through the Layla, and then going through it. It sounded identical to me, so the Layla seems to be doing its job quite well without coloring the sound at all. I did a couple tests with my own voice as well, just to get a male voice in the mix.
Now I can use that money towards something else that will make a bigger difference. To be fair, the Focusrite was not the most expensive preamp in the world at "a mere" $300. I would still love to try out a Grace 101 preamp, but they don't sell those at my local GC.
So there are my thoughts, for what they're worth.
[ Back to Top ]
vdalehubbardLost for words with all to say.Contributor
Since: Sep 12, 2003
Jun 29, 2005 09:04 am Sweet PorpoiseMuffins!
I had also thought the preamp stuff was a bunch of hype. But I never had the free money to buy one more then $100 to try out. Would be cool to try a $1000 dollar one up to an ART TPS! But I'll stick with my ART and EQ the muffle out.
shepherdsampatron saint of quality footwearMember
Since: May 30, 2002
Jun 29, 2005 09:04 am Great stuff Porpoise, thanks for taking the time.
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Jun 29, 2005 10:24 am I don't think that the average ear can hear the difference between an average preamp and a high-end preamp on ONE track.
Try this: track all of the instruments for an entire song thru the Focusrite, and do the same with the Layla's preamps and THEN tell us what you hear.
I can almost garantee that the end result of the additive effect of a nice preamp layered upon itself many times will definitely make a difference in overall clarity and crispness of the mix.
Jun 29, 2005 10:57 am Groove Tubes "the Brick"..........DO IT.
The low end focusrites are no better than mackie stock pres in their vlz pro line. I have worked with a few budget pres including my presonus tubepre and they too don't sound much different.
The "brick" lists for like $400 but you can get it at any guitar center for $350. Single channel. No extra features, just kick *** sound courtesy of 3 tubes in series. You will find the most noticable difference in vox. gives guitars a smoother more life like tone.
Jun 29, 2005 11:11 am i second the brick, i've only heard it in action once, but i've also read enough about it to have in my 'things to get' list. that thing has a reputation of...well, a brick.
Jun 29, 2005 12:18 pm I would have liked to try the brick, but the only preamps that they had were the Focusrites and the PreSonus Eureka. I could have tried out the Eureka ($500), but my thinking was that I might actually want to keep the thing if I liked it a lot, and I wouldn't want to spend more than $300 in the end.
[quote]I don't think that the average ear can hear the difference between an average preamp and a high-end preamp on ONE track.
Try this: track all of the instruments for an entire song thru the Focusrite, and do the same with the Layla's preamps and THEN tell us what you hear.[/quote]
That's a good point, but I honestly can't see it sounding any different between the Layla 3G and the Focusrite. One thing I did discover is that the 2 preamps in my Layla 3G are better than I thought they were.
What I really wanted to try out was either The Brick or a Grace Design 101. When I bring the Focusrite back I will ask if there's any chance that they have a GT Brick. I already asked if they had a Grace 101 and they didn't.
el musicoFreeleance Producer/Engineer/GtrMember
Since: Aug 11, 2002
Jun 29, 2005 12:31 pm You might want to try the RNP from FMR Audio (2 channel pre)... it is often compared to pre's costing $2k-3k available at mercenary.com for $500 ($250 a channel!)
Jun 29, 2005 12:40 pm yeah also Presonus Blue Tube....i love them little buggers
Jun 29, 2005 12:53 pm The ART TPS does have a "warmer" sound to it than the Focusrite and Layla 3G pres, so I will continue to use it for certain vocal applications. Like I said, I prefer the more open, airy sound of the Layla 3G and Focusrite. The Behringer board preamps don't sound as full as my other pres. Sounds like a cut in the lower mids. Like I said, these really aren't huge differences. I can't wait to get my hands on some real high-end stuff to test it out. I should have that opportunity next year in college.
Jun 29, 2005 01:01 pm hey Db...i've got an idea why don't ya e-mail these company's we're discussing and lets do an HRC budget preamp (or compressor, or mic, or mixer, or monitor, or laptop, or beer) shootout! you can send them my address here in tennessee, and i'll write a FULL REVIEW of these fine products!
Jun 29, 2005 01:12 pm not a bad idea actually...other than the "send them to me" part ;-)
Jun 29, 2005 01:27 pm no! no! that was the whole point! lol
Jun 29, 2005 01:28 pm now, hw can I in good faith do a shootout that I don't personally benefit from...er, I mean, participate in? :-)
Jun 29, 2005 04:20 pm Good one, WYD. ;)
Good news, guys. I just returned the Focusrite to GC and they had a bunch of GT Bricks in the back. The guy that sold it to me was raving about it. He says he's got $2,000 pres at home and this is the best thing for the budget. I picked one up and I'm about to try it out. Impressions will follow!
Jun 29, 2005 04:51 pm lol! i'd love to see your impression of a brick!
Jun 29, 2005 04:54 pm yeah, the impression of a brick on yo' f'in forehead!
sorry, had to say it...
Jun 29, 2005 05:23 pm Well, I ran the same vocal test that I did yesterday. I'm going to try it out with acoustic guitar later tonight. My initial impression is that The Brick sounds maybe slightly fatter than the Focusrite and my Layla 3G, but the difference is barely there if at all. I consider myself to have good ears, but I'm just not hearing it. Next to my cheapest pres (the Behringer MX board), the Brick does sound noticably better. I wish I could tell you it sounds like night and day-- But it really doesn't.
Jun 29, 2005 10:20 pm Okay, I did some acoustic guitar and then some of my own vocals. My conclusion hasn't changed. I think I can hear maybe a little bit of pleasant harmonic distortion from the Brick, but the difference is miniscule to my ears.
Jun 29, 2005 11:23 pm Are you going through your soundcard?
If so try putting it straight through the speakers. Thats what happened with my avalon. i am shocked to say, it sounded severely average through the Q10. My aardvark seems to degrade the sound.
Just an idea.
Jun 29, 2005 11:59 pm I'll give it a shot.
olddogMember
Since: Jul 02, 2003
Jun 30, 2005 01:17 am This is very interesting to say the least Porpoise.
Dan
cooloFrisco's Most UnderratedMember
Since: Jan 28, 2003
Jun 30, 2005 03:00 am Hey, this is interesting. I have to try this sometime with my gear as well (mic vs mic, pre vs pre).
Though I did purchase a grace model 101, and I love it. The audio store I went to had a rack of about 12 pres ranging in price from $150 to about $2500 if I remember right, connected to the same mic signal. I got to stand in front of the mic and talk/rap/sing into all of them one at a time (though I didn't even bother trying anything that cost over $1200). I can't remember the other models that were there, but the model 101 was the "cleanest" sounding pre that I tried (clean/uncolored being the sound I was going for), and I fell in love with it, even though it was a bit more expensive than what I wanted to pay. But I got it anyways, and I'm super happy with it. One channel of scrumptiousness.
Jun 30, 2005 10:00 am Coolo- Is there any way that you could do a quick A/B test between a cheaper preamp and the Grace 101 and maybe send me a wav file of what it sounds like? That would be good to hear.
Jun 30, 2005 11:21 am i'd run pink noize through the pre for a test.
Jun 30, 2005 01:30 pm Can I borrow some pink noise? :)
I just ran a test using my Behringer board to split the same signal in two before it reached the brick on one channel and the Layla pre on the other. Now I know that some may say putting the board between the mic and the preamp is diminishing any benefit that the preamps might provide, but I figured I'd give it a shot anyway. I turned the gain pot down all the way on the Behringer and ran out balanced XLR's. I made sure that the signal coming out of each preamp was exactly the same level. I tested both vocals and acoustic guitar. Then I took a small section of what I recorded from one preamp, then the same section recorded from the other preamp, and looped them next to each other. I closed my eyes and monitored using both the monitors and headphones (Not at the same time), and then tried to pick out any differences. They sounded exactly the same. When I tried to pick out a favorite, each time I ended up picking the Layla over the Brick (Not knowing which was which), although I think that was just by chance. I had nothing between the sound card and the speakers/headphones except for my Presonus headphone amp. Moreover, I didn't hear any difference in quality between when I ran through the Behringer and didn't run through the Behringer, although that was difficult to accurately deduce.
So, going by this and my previous tests, either the Brick isn't really any better than the Layla's 2 pres or my Layla isn't good enough to let me hear the difference. It's next to impossible for me to A/B the Layla in and out, but I think I will try that out later tonight when I've got someone to help me out.
One thing came out of this: I realized the phantom power on my Layla isn't working anymore :( I rarely use it anyway, because the GT66 uses its own power supply, but I'll have to get it fixed at some point.
So I think I'm going to bring the Brick back and pick up a copy of Antares AutoTune, instead. I've been trying out the demo on a song with a bunch of harmonies, and it definately smooths things out where there was a little bit of clashing before.
cooloFrisco's Most UnderratedMember
Since: Jan 28, 2003
Jun 30, 2005 06:58 pm Porpoise, I'll try and make this happen. It'll be the grace 101 vs the pres on my little old behringer... and I may throw in some mic samples too. I'll post so anyone interested can hear.
Jun 30, 2005 11:40 pm Awesome. Together, we can get to the bottom of this conspiracy!
Jul 01, 2005 02:47 pm I think the problem with your test is either your hearing as you stated or your soundcard/testing methods.
I just ran a pair of matched octava mc012's about 4 feet back from my kit and 3 feet off the ground (tom height) pointing down at about 30 degrees. Capsules right next to eachother 1 cm apart. One through my mackie 1604 @ U gain, direct out to my alesis hd24 (no soundcard/interface screwing up my test). One through my Brick gain all the way down ran directly into my hd24.
Results.. fatter sound all around. more lifelike sounds. more even volume (ie the mackie had many more clips and still a lower average sound. seriously i dont even need to listen to the difference cause I can see how much better it is just by looking at the wave forms. much smoother.
i'll do the same test with my guitar player tomorrow if you like. if anyone really wants me to send them these files or convert them to mp3 or whatever let me know.
Jul 01, 2005 10:41 pm Yeah, I won't believe it until I hear it, man!
Your Alesis HD24 is still converting and recording the signal, so it could still just as easily mess with the sound as my Layla would. Maybe it's better than the Layla, but it's still what you're "interfacing" with.
This whole thing is seriously starting to annoy me now... I want answers!
Oh, by the way, I did try to A/B the layla in and out. I didn't hear any difference in sound quality.
Jul 02, 2005 12:55 pm Today I whipped out the Brick again for another test like the one Josh did. I used Oktava mk012's like he did, and I ran one mic through the brick and one through a Behringer pre. The recorded material sounded almost exactly the same. Mind you, when you're doing these sort of things you have to have the levels the same or volume tricks you into thinking one is better than the other (Sounds like Josh might have ignored that part). The Brick sounded maybe a little fuller and a little less midrangy, but that was the only diffference.
I also tried an A/B on the snare drum between the Brick and the Layla's pres. This time it was the same mic (an SM57) with different performances. The results were the same.
Jul 02, 2005 04:16 pm I did not ignore the volume. I set the mic through the mackie @ unity gain (15db). The brick was set to the left (25db). No EQ pre or post.
The initial input was lower on the mackie. the lowest signal on the same passage was on the mackie. the highest point was also the mackie. The smooth transition between fluxuations in the volume make it seems as though the signal from the brick had slight compression on it. both signals seemed to peak around -1 but when one clipped they both clipped, keep in mind that the mackie had 10 less db to start and still had the same max volume.
I balanced the output at playback to the loudest average volume. the mackie had the lowest and highest signal which gets fatiguing to the ear after 10 minutes of listening back. not the case with the brick.
Yes the hd24 is converting the analogue signal to digital to record, but that is all. I am getting one a/d d/a converter in line from the pre. going through your layla means you are still running through the pres on the layla before the a/d converters. you said yourself that you split the signal through your behringer which defeats the purpose of the test.
Jul 02, 2005 09:21 pm So you're equating a lack of dynamics with better sound quality? How does it actually sound? Close your eyes and tell me if you can pick out which pre is which.
Quote:
Yes the hd24 is converting the analogue signal to digital to record, but that is all. I am getting one a/d d/a converter in line from the pre. going through your layla means you are still running through the pres on the layla before the a/d converters. you said yourself that you split the signal through your behringer which defeats the purpose of the test.
The Layla only has pres on the first two inputs, not all 8. When testing the Brick I used the line inputs, not the pres. That is the same signal path you described. I only used the Behringer mixer to split the signal as an experiment in one of my last tests. My other tests were done with separate performances, not by splitting the signal.
If you want to waste your money, go ahead, but I'm just not buying into it anymore.
cooloFrisco's Most UnderratedMember
Since: Jan 28, 2003
Jul 04, 2005 03:48 am Here, now you can hear some samples I've put up.
The link is:
www.voxmachinamusic.com/tests/tests.html
I've got samples of both my Neumann TLM-103 and SM58 going through both my Grace Model 101 and the pres on my Behringer Eurorack 602A, and then into my Delta 66. I've also got the cheapo SONY dynamic mic (that comes with a cable attached to it, and connects via a 1/8" jack) that I did all my original recording on, straight into the mic input on my SBLive (using the 20db boost). All files are wav files about 1mb each, and are pretty similar. I did not use a wind guard on any of the recordings (it's noticeable). If you have any questions, feel free to ask. Hope this helps some people.
Jul 04, 2005 10:54 am Coolo, thanks a lot! I definately hear a difference between the Grace 101 and the Behringer through the Neumann, but it seems like it's overexaggerated by an increase in level on the Grace clip. I can't download the clip, so I can't look at the waveform, but it sounds like it's a lot louder. The difference is like what I heard between my own Behringer board and the Layla pre or the Brick, except more noticeable. I suppose that could be related to the preamp being better (In which case I would like one of those... but probably not for $600), or maybe that the Neumann brings it out better. The Layla's A/D converters should be on par with the Delta 66, so that shouldn't be the problem. Actually, when comparing the card to my old Delta 44 the Layla had a much lower noise floor. The difference in the SM58 clips is hardly noticeable, which backs up my previous conclusion that you need a really nice mic to hear the effects of a really nice preamp at all.
So could you make those downloadable by any chance...?
Jul 04, 2005 12:30 pm Hey, Coolo (And anyone else)- I just did another test like yours and put it up on my NoWhereRadio site so you can hear it:
www.nowhereradio.com/arti...1&alid=1341
They all sound pretty much the same, don't they? Each one sounds a bit different, but none of the three really sounds a lot better or worse than the others in my opinion. Actually, the Layla and Behringer seem to sound better than the Brick.
Coolo- I'm going to run the tracks you did out of the Layla and back into its inputs and see if it still sounds the same or whether the Layla is messing with it during the A>D conversion. If I'm hearing the difference now in playback (Which I am), I should be able to hear the difference after the signal's been re-recorded through the card, right?
EDIT: I ran Coolo's recordings out and back into the Layla and they sound just like they did before, including the one through the Grace 101. This is good news for me, since it means that the Layla is NOT the reason why I'm not hearing a big difference between the preamps. When I did this trick I did notice that the Grace 101 was at a louder level than the Behringer, as I had thought. When I leveled them out more evenly, the difference in sound quality between the two was much less noticeable, although the Grace 101 still sounded fuller and clearer to a degree. I noticed that the Behringer seemed to be giving you a good deal of noise, which is weird since I've never had that problem with mine.
Coolo- I think that your $1,000 Neumann is probably the reason why there is as noticeable a difference as there is between the Behringer and Grace 101. I wish you had a Brick and a Layla 3G so you could compare the three and see how they stack up to the Grace 101. Thanks a lot for doing that comparison, man. It helped out a lot. I've learned a ton more about gear from all of this.
cooloFrisco's Most UnderratedMember
Since: Jan 28, 2003
Jul 05, 2005 02:28 am Hmmm, you should be able to download these files. I was able to when using Mozilla firefox. If you're using IE did you try the old right click and save target as trick?
Just as a note, you can probably find the Neumann for about $700 brand new, and I bought mine off ebay for about $550 used.
I can definitely hear the difference way more in the neumann than the SM58, but there is a slight difference in the SM58 in my ears. Also, the Grace pre clicks directly in at 5db increments, so I know that I'm exactly at 45db gain. But the Behringer doesn't click, so I was approximating 45db gain, not sure if it was exactly at that. Definitely, the increase in sound quality is only slightly incremental, but I'm trying to get the most professional sound as possible without a proffesional recording atmosphere (aka I'm recording in my bedroom) and not completely breaking my pocketbook. Between the gear, and my mixing skills starting to improve, I feel like I'm getting pretty close.
Glad you found this useful porp.
cooloFrisco's Most UnderratedMember
Since: Jan 28, 2003
Jul 05, 2005 02:34 am Hey, I checked your samples at nowhereradio (albeit on lofi stream), and for my ears, it seems that the Brick and Behringer sound very similar, though the Brick has a little more clarity, and both of them sound better than the pres on the Layla, though the Brick seems a little louder than the other.
I guess if I had to choose from one of them, I would choose the brick, but it's really not astoundingly better, to me.
Jul 05, 2005 12:02 pm Yeah, I use Firefox but the download option wasn't there. That's okay, I just played it back and recorded it like I said, which aided me in the other part of my mad experiment :)
I can hear a small difference in the 58, too, but it is very small. At any rate, the Grace pre sounds awesome and I'll probably pick one up some day when I have more money.
You really have to listen to my clips on hi-fi or download them to accurately evaluate them. I just listened to them on lo-fi and think I heard exactly what you said. Then I listened in hi-fi and it's a totally different world. Could you listen again? I'd like to know what you think.
My opinion is that the Brick sounds a bit clearer in the upper mids than the Layla and Behringer, but that the Layla and Behringer have more upper high frequency content and a much fuller low end. Of the Behringer and Layla, the Layla sounds better to my ears. More clear amd "up front". The Behringer sounds a little muddy.
cooloFrisco's Most UnderratedMember
Since: Jan 28, 2003
Jul 05, 2005 12:38 pm so I downloaded the clips and I think the layla pres seem to have a little more fullness, and a little less on the highs (I think), which gives it a rich feel to it. Definitely sounds the best to me. The brick is the next best to me, and definitely has the upper mids being very prevalent. The Behringer sounds fairly similar to the Brick to me, but with more lower end, and not as much clarity.
If I had to choose, I'd go with the Layla pres personally, after hearing these samples.
Jul 05, 2005 01:11 pm Cool. Thanks, man. I'm glad we're both hearing the same thing.
DiemusikString benderMember
Since: Unknown
Jul 05, 2005 11:11 pm Hey Porpoise I just listened to your clips through my KRK Rp-5 monitors and The only one that had a big difference to me was the Behringer. That one did not come through as clear as the other two. I agree with coolo I think the Brick had more highs and to me the most clarity. The layla was very close to the brick. Something to think about, If there wasnt a side by side testing even the behringer would sound good enough for the average user. Thats my take on it. Take care!
cooloFrisco's Most UnderratedMember
Since: Jan 28, 2003
Jul 06, 2005 03:21 am I kind of agree with Diemusik, in that if you don't have the side by side comparison, most people would say, yeah, this is good enough. But if each piece of gear in your chain adds a bit more clarity, eventually it adds up. I mean vocals on the sm58 through the behringer into the SBLive sounded good to me too until I had something to compare them too.
Hmmm, maybe I'll do a comparison between SBLive and Delta 66 converters, as people are knocking the SBLive fairly often. Then we can hear what's really up!
DiemusikString benderMember
Since: Unknown
Jul 06, 2005 11:25 pm I agree coolo, thats what I was thinking. By all means if someone wants a cleaner recording than the better gear wins.
