So what so you thinks going to happen in the election?
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Posted on Oct 30, 2008 06:41 am
JDOD
Brother Number One
Member Since: Jan 22, 2008
I'm intrigued how you all see it, most of the coverage I get is from the BBC and other European news. Polls of Europeans suggest that most Europeans really hope Obama gets in but, obviously, we dont get to vote so what do you lot think.
Also, did anyone watch that Obama ad on tele last night? What was it like? The idea of someone doing something like that seems really ******* bizzare to me but I've heard that it was good if a bit too much.
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Oct 30, 2008 06:53 am I am running on the assumption Obama will win. I did not watch his show last night, but polling had indicated, while good (he is a good speaker, if saying nothing with all his words) he didn't really sway any undecided voters with it.
For me, I don't think it matters who wins, we will still get higher taxes, just from different angles. No matter who gets in the economy will bounce back within four years and that person (or party) will win re-election claiming credit for the come back, even though it is just typical business cycle economics.
I hope McCain wins, but I assume Obama will, ultimately it doesn't matter who is in the white house...the machine is all the same, the only difference is if Obama gets in it's an all liberal party...all control to any party is a bad thing. Gov't works best in grindlock, when they argue amongst themselves and not get anything done that directly impacts us.
At the end of the day, party aside, politicians are all looking out for themselves and not us, so it doesn't matter.
A vote for McCain is a vote for gridlock. Vote McCain.
JDODBrother Number OneMember
Since: Jan 22, 2008
Oct 30, 2008 07:07 am Is it true that if the president dies the VP automatically takes over, at least in the short term?
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Oct 30, 2008 07:09 am Yep, also if the president resigns, or is impeached, or otherwise unable to perform the duties of office.
Gerald Ford took over for Richard Nixon when Nixon was impeached.
The VP will serve out the rest of the term.
JDODBrother Number OneMember
Since: Jan 22, 2008
Oct 30, 2008 07:18 am Ah, maybe thats why most europeans want Obama to win. McCain is knocking on a bit and the plastic woman gives us The Fear!
Oct 30, 2008 07:28 am i don't get the 'vote for gridlock' idea. path of least resistance typically means voting to protect your asses. that can be so many kinds of bad. expensive decisions that do nothing for us but make politicians look good.
i don't mind anything that's not ultimately reversible. this is why foreign policy is always pretty much my major concern. mistakes there can really affect things.
the obama ad was cheesy in some ways but he bought the time slot on many networks. his ad was probably seen by many people. it was a good decision to air it.
he's probably gonna win. it's hard to think of 'where' that counteracting force out there would be. you've seen the rallies. energy like that probably translates to a win if there's no equal but opposing force on the other side.
fivethirtyeight.com shows state by state stuff. follow that site on election night for insight, if you live out of country.
Oct 30, 2008 07:32 am Quote:
the plastic woman gives us The Fear!
LOL. Not to worry. Many over here feel the same.
Just to clarify, impeachment doesn't automatically oust a president unless the process goes through both the House and Senate. Clinton was impeached by the House, but not tried by the Senate. Nixon resigned rather than face imminent impeachment ;-)
zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
Oct 30, 2008 07:40 am I'm assuming an Obama win as well... Nader and Paul will be spoilers for McCain which will hopefully force the party leaders to grow up... so stronger senate races for the republicans in the future I think... who will be different republican senators...
Economy wise. We've been playing musical chairs and are now realizing how few chairs there are... hoping that someone just turns the music back on. A 4 year bounce has been predicted by the technical analysis folks... then assuming fusion works, zombie apocalypse until 2040 :)
Oct 30, 2008 07:46 am Bob Barr is the Libertarian this year, and and I almost checked that box when I voted yesterday...for Obama.
<< waits for dB's tomatoes
Oct 30, 2008 07:57 am why would you vote for someone THIS arrogant, herb?
lookit, lookit!
link disabled for language. (type it in. it's good.)
ghhhhyoutube.com/watch?v=AHcxzBwjYHg
Oct 30, 2008 08:00 am Heck, I'd vote libertarian if I thought any of them ever had a chance in hell of winning. Libertarian is my party of choice on the whole, but it'll never go anywhere.
JDOD, Europe wants Obama cuz he's more into the socialist one world government idea that Europe embraces...pretty simple, predictable reason as I see it.
zek, Paul isn't even going to be on the ticket is he?
Oct 30, 2008 08:06 am I'm voting for Obama too. I'm a bit disillusioned by the whole process. The negative campaigning (on both sides) is really draining. I've tried to ignore it this year and go with my gut. Obama is stronger on the issues that matter to me most, plain and simple. If McCain wins, I won't really be too upset...unless he dies in the next four years...
(*Side Note: How about that Colemen/Franken race in Minnesota. Talk about nasty!)
Regardless of who wins, neither one will do everything that they say they will.
Oct 30, 2008 08:12 am OT: I'm voting for Barkley Coleman and Franken both have me disgusted. Coleman I can live with, Franken is a terrible, horrible human being.
I think Obama SOUNDS better, but I don't think he'd have a chance in hell of getting any of his grand plan done considering we have no money...his "redistribution" ideals totally piss me off.
zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
Oct 30, 2008 08:23 am no pauls not on the ticket in most states but there's nothing stopping people from writing him in... besides lazyness... in which case they'll probably go with nader...
Oct 30, 2008 09:15 am
Oct 30, 2008 09:36 am keep in mind though with the redistribution thing, it's just basically going back to reagan tax rates and clinton rates. the only 'weird' thing about it seems to be the idea of checks.
watch that video, man. strange and amusing.
Oct 30, 2008 09:46 am Quote:
A vote for McCain is a vote for gridlock. Vote McCain.
That's a fair way to put it. The last three times we've had a triple-threat (D,D,D), we've had staggering inflation, extremely high taxes, etc.
(For the record - current "I" former "D" not quite yet ready to claim to be "R" but it seems to get closer every day as my former party continues to completely jump off the cliff of reality)
My accountant (a life-long Democrat) already sent out a preparatory "Cover your Assets" letter about what I'm going to have to change (in a business sense) if Obama wins. And to put it gently, I'm deeply, deeply concerned.
On the taxes thing - Regan cut the top marginal rate from 70% (as it was under Carter - which was a drop from 90% on the previous DDD) to 28%. It went up a bit under GHWB and then BC kicked it up to 39%. And when Regan did that, the income to the fed tripled. Cutting taxes = freeing up capitalism = economic growth. It's just an "economic theory" of course, but so far, it's worked spectacularly every single time it's been tried. Allowing the current cuts to expire (as BO stated he would allow) would bring about a rather dramatic tax increase - pretty much across the board. Not looking forward to that.
Oct 30, 2008 09:50 am Umm, forty, he was saying thank you. You couldn't tell that was dubbed? I have to assume you were being facetious.
Oct 30, 2008 09:50 am anyone that runs a business of their own is screwed if Obama wins...it seems the money for all his great plans is going to come from those pockets.
This year, I am actually closing my corporation and taking all side work as simple, personal income and being done with it. I am sick and tired of the small business operating hassles. A couple neighbors that run their own businesses are very concerned as well.
I, through the years, have made the slow progression from D to I to R, now I am kinda flittin back to I...both D and R have a severe case of cranial-rectal inversion.
Oct 30, 2008 10:20 am Admittedly, I'm politically naive, so I have a few questions (and these are honest questions):
Wealth Redistribution: Isn't that essentially what taxes are? People who make money and the government takes some and passes it along to other people.
Cutting Taxes: If we cut taxes, aren't we taking money away from someone who is getting it now? To just say, "We're cutting taxes" troubles me, unless I know who you're taking those dollars away from.
Again...I'm a simpleton. I have no clue what MM was talking about in his post. I just don't understand half of this stuff. Maybe I'm too stupid to vote...
Enlighten me.
Oct 30, 2008 10:24 am If anyone were to ask my affiliation, it is most definitely independent, and always has been.
I guess when it comes right down to it, both idealistic extremes pizz me off, but the left tends to pizz me off slightly less. I'm sick sick sick of the stupid wars and the ridiculous costs of them with no apparent results. And as stated, there's no one in the middle with a chance in hell to get elected.
Maybe in 2012, but I doubt it. It takes too long for status quos to change.
Oct 30, 2008 10:30 am Taxes are a lot more than redistribution, it's also paying for gov't services...police, fire, rescue, road repair, TEACHERS (:ahem:), lavish lunches for politicians with hookers, drinks, drugs, etc...
In all those are multiple levels of bureaucracy and waste...
They all talk about cuting taxes for the middle class, none do (to any noticable amount) and raise taxes on the rich, to fund those middle class tax cuts...it's all a stupid numbers game. Ultimately the biggest benefit is in taxing the middle class because that is the VAST majority...they get less, but from vastly more people. With the rich, they have the money to pay for accountants that shuffle money around, through different businesses structures, donations and the like to pay as little as possible.
At a certain level, taxes are redistribution if it's done right...but it never is.
As far as Obama's plan, he wants to force employers to pay for a lot for employees, and be taxed heavier, which will, in the end, make work get outsourced to cheaper countries, or, simply go out of business, either way is lost jobs.
Oct 30, 2008 10:31 am Jim, that's another thing. Everybody wants to cut taxes and nobody talks about where the money's gonna come from to pay for all this stuff. I'm no economic genius, but I can balance a friggin' checkbook.
It's easy to talk big when the money (or lack of it) is not sitting right in front of you.
Oct 30, 2008 10:34 am yep, both sides are promising big things to a country that has NO money.
I'd guess the smart president would end up pissing a ton of people off in the first year by proposing cutting services first...
they always promise going thru spending line by line to rid waste...yet each time there's more...
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Oct 30, 2008 12:37 pm Quote:
Allowing the current cuts to expire (as BO stated he would allow) would bring about a rather dramatic tax increase - pretty much across the board
This seems to be a very effective way of increasing tax revenue without enacting any 'new' taxes. So the middle class still gets milked, but BO gets to claim his promise is kept: no new taxes for anybody making under 250k$.
Like dB says, Same old ****, different AH on the pot!
( I paraphrase, of course )
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Oct 30, 2008 12:38 pm Quote:
It's easy to talk big when the money (or lack of it) is not sitting right in front of you.
And, it's not coming out of their own pockets.
I read somewhere once, have the election on april 16th. That would get the country involved in their own politics!
Oct 30, 2008 12:51 pm I like that idea!
Oct 30, 2008 01:03 pm Quote:
have the election on april 16th
I'm not sure the American public has a memory even that long.
TallChapAnswer:On a good day, lipstick.Member
Since: Jun 24, 2004
Oct 30, 2008 01:27 pm Quote:
both sides are promising big things to a country that has NO money
There's money, but it's been redistributed to the top 1%.
Oct 30, 2008 01:30 pm oh, I think plenty of money has went to lots of silly places...
I'll tell you, though, todays news from Exxon has me unbelievably pissed off though...not only did they gouge us for months, but, they openly admitted it by bragging about record profits, that easily beat the previous record by A LOT.
So bold as to say "hey, thanks for the extra 3 billions dollars from your wallets".
::sigh::
TallChapAnswer:On a good day, lipstick.Member
Since: Jun 24, 2004
Oct 30, 2008 01:34 pm Yeah, the breaking point for me was when OPEC came out and said, "This ain't us!"
Oct 30, 2008 03:45 pm Quote:
In all those are multiple levels of bureaucracy and waste...
That's the problem. Tax cuts result in less funding for the services we need, but there's still plenty of money for hookers and lavish lunches. (Not necessarily in that order!)
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Oct 30, 2008 03:52 pm Bummer's got it. He's a cival rights lawyer and can put on a good show. Most of the people I know in the U.S. believe the government is beyond repair and really don't expect anything from the president beyond double talk. Bummer double talks best, Bummer gets elected. Simple.
Oct 30, 2008 03:54 pm I, for one, would like to see a list of "services" and the budgets associated with them...the salaries and job descriptions of the people getting paychecks from our gov't...and see how many are so pandering to small minorities (bridge to nowhere springs to mind). The earmarks that are tossed on bills to suck somebody in to voting for it...
the list goes on...
Minnesota legislaters this year passed a raise in their daily expense stipend...they get something like $96 every single day for lunch, parking and all that...
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Oct 30, 2008 04:47 pm Yup, and were going to give them control of even more. Keep trying the same thing expecting different results.
WhooHooo! You did such a great job with my social security, I'm gonna give you my health care as well! I just know you'll do the right thing! I feel so much better now.
Ooops, can't find my doobie again .... I just don't get it.
Oct 30, 2008 05:10 pm Yes, I was being facetious with the video. I know what he was really saying. But it's pretty amusing to me anyway.
As for taxes, all I know is that there's real data showing that the economy has historically done better under democrats. Quick google: www.washingtonmonthly.com...5_05/006282.php
There are other articles, can't remember the one I saw.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Oct 30, 2008 09:46 pm Quote:
anyone that runs a business of their own is screwed if Obama wins...
Now you know why I sail on the ship I've been sailing on. Figuratively speaking of course. :-)
As for who I am voting for. I am with dB on the MN vote for sure. While I like Norm and he has done some good stuff. He is just as guilty as Franken, and I am so sick and tired of the crap the two of them have been crowding the airwaves with here. Both on TV and Radio. Thank goodness for public radio, don't have to hear the commercials on that since there are none.
AS for the Pres election, I'll be not be voting for either. I don't like anything that piece of crap Obama stands for at all, not one thing. He is as big a liar as the rest and the worst part is he has absolutely NO political experience to warrant being president.
And he as well is carrying a hidden agenda! Mark my word on that. The man does not believe in Family, Patriotism, God or anything this country stands for. He is going to cause more problems then we will be able to handle.
Nuff said, I'm staying the hell away from the plotical threads from now on as it only raises my freaking blood pressure through the roof.
And no, I have not had one single cocktail this evening. Although I may start now!
Oct 30, 2008 10:22 pm Quote:
anyone that runs a business of their own is screwed if Obama wins...
Here I go being stupid again, but what makes this true? I thought that small businesses that make less than $250,000 would see taxes stay the same or go down. What percent of small businesses are clearing that kind of dough?
EDIT: I found this, that answers some of my questions:
money.cnn.com/2008/09/03/...bama_taxes.fsb/
Oct 30, 2008 11:53 pm I think that it's possible that far leftists may end up being the most disappointed in Obama and that it's as likely as not that Obama turns out to be more conservative than any of you believe possible.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Oct 31, 2008 12:01 am First and formost he is a cival rights lawyer. World finance is out of his league.
Second, the only reason he beat Hillary is because Hillary's lies were so obvious that even the American public could no longer vote for her and look in the mirror. Per his training he is an eloquent lier.
Third, with all of the wonderfull "take control" measures he is proposing there is no way big business taxation will cover his plans.
Forth, he is brought to you and owned by big business, to include fanny and freddie.
Fifth, big business makes the laws in this country. Before any taxation structure changes occur, big busineses have already redistributed their monies to reflect the best possible "real" profitability to include their tax contributions. They can show a profit or loss with simple structural and accounting manipulations which are primarily geared toward favorable stock maniuplation.
And that is just one line item in his liteny of lies.
The damn fool was in my living room just tonight telling me how he was going to sit down with the automakers here in Detroit and just tell them how they will do business. Hes a gonna tell em ta start makin fuel efficient cars! Hes a gonna make it all better for us here in Deeeeetroit! HELLO BUMMER!!! These are the same arogant greedy folks that own you! They just came out with a new Hummer that is a pickup! That's their answer to diminished market share over the past 15 years! GM has always stated that people will buy what we make for them. They don't want your advise, they are in line for their share of the bail out that you signed!
Do you really think Bummer is stupid enough to think he can really do any of these things he spouts? Give me a break! As he stands between Commander Hillary and X-pres "I did not have sex with that woman", a lawyer, trained in the art of distorting the truth, do you really anticipate he will bring about any change beyond the one remark he has background in, that being creating a predjudice interpretation of our constition reflecting favoritism toward blacks and Hispanics?
Do another doobie.
Oct 31, 2008 12:33 am Walt, you just hate Obama and it seems to color your thoughts. Of course he can get *some things* done, come on. The rest of it is just striking an optimistic tone.
He beat Hillary not for the reason you proposed, but because of effective message management, incredible campaign architecture, and the ability to sell a very specific story. His intangible personal aspects were also an asset. These are the reasons Obama won the primary, and they're some of the reasons hes winning now.
You seem to just hate the man. You've been calling him names for a while now. That's fine, but that's what I'm mostly gettin' here.
Oct 31, 2008 12:59 am wow, i was gonna stay outta this one, but i can no longer bite my tongue.....to address walts last post first (in order)
first, i'm gonna take that as an 'experience' jab, or lack thereof...to me experience means taking part and being a part of the very system that well, sucks, taking someone with that's already neck deep in gook from the past, and i'm sure owes favors to everyone. maybe someone with a bit less experience is a good thing for "change"
and god forbid something should happen to 'ole McCain, little miss joe governor will be in charge.
second, Hillary isn't on my ballot, so i don't care about how he beat Hillary. and yes i agree with all politicians being eloquent liars.
third, when all (even big) business does good, america does good, so i'm sure they'll find a happy medium somewhere. as for a politician telling detroit auto mfgrs. they need to change their business model a bit, i'm all for it, i'm from michigan, my father worked for them for 30 years, and has litle to show for it. i myself worked in the plant for a year and a half, and was disgusted with what i saw gooin' on from the inside. i hate unions.
fourth, all of them and everything else in big media, that's capitalism for ya. ain't much ya can do about that, nature of the beast i guess.
Oct 31, 2008 02:19 am [quote]Here I go being stupid again, but what makes this true? I thought that small businesses that make less than $250,000 would see taxes stay the same or go down. What percent of small businesses are clearing that kind of dough?
EDIT: I found this, that answers some of my questions:
money.cnn.com/2008/09/03/...bama_taxes.fsb/
[/quote]
Relying on CNN to give you the straight facts on Obama's tax plan is like asking the fox to guard the hen house.
It's not just businesses that are clearing $250k a year... Most small businesses with more than a few employees have receipts of over $250k/yr. And now Obama said (yesterday) $200k. And Biden said $150k. And if they allow the current tax numbers to expire (as they said they would) it's everyone.
In any case - the whole "Robin Hood" rob-from-the-rich-and-give-to-the-poor thing has failed every single times it's been tried. It's called Socialism at best and Communism at worst. Marxism at anything.
If you punish success enough, no one will want to be successful because it will be too expensive.
Take Exxon for example -- Just posted their highest quarter ever. That's the part the news is running with - because that kind of success must be evil. Personally, I'm thankful as hell that people are out there trying to get black sludge out of the ground so I don't have to walk or ride a horse everywhere.
Anyway - The part that no one talks about is that they had their highest expenditures ever. And they paid their single biggest tax payment of all time to the Fed.
But this is typical "from the left" stuff (which is why I quit "the left" in the first place). Punish the successful, reward the stagnant. Instead of trying to go with the "rising tide raises all ships" train of thought and give everyone from the bottom up the tools needed to lift themselves above misery, they try to bring the successful down closer to the misery at the bottom.
We already unfairly tax the wealthy and successful. I'd like to be one of those wealthy and successful people some day. But it ain't gonna happen with the top rate back up at 70 or 90%.
Oct 31, 2008 02:43 am www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/809/
"It's not clear from the exchange just what Joe means when he says the business "makes" up to $280,000 a year. Is he talking about total revenue? Profits? That's an important point here and it's one that Obama and Joe the Plumber never discussed. Based on Obama's proposals and current tax policy, for Joe's taxes to rise Joe would have to "make" $250,000 in net profit, after deducting all his expenses: his employees' pay, his supplies, his truck, his fuel costs, and other legitimate business expenses. He'd have to be an extremely successful plumber.
In response to McCain's statements during the debate, Obama said only 2 percent of small businesses would be subject to the tax.
It seems likely that Obama is right, according to data and an analysis from the experts at the Tax Policy Center.
Obama's plan is to roll back the Bush tax cuts on the top two tax brackets. In practice, this means that people with income above $200,000 for single people and $250,000 for couples would see taxes increase.
Now what does this mean for small businesses? It's not as easy as you might think to identify small businesses via the tax code. But there are several typical ways that small business owners pay their taxes, usually by declaring business income on their individual tax returns. Many people who declare business income are small businesses, though the group also includes professionals like lawyers, authors, or public speakers.
Looking at all the tax filers who report any business income at all, the Tax Policy Center confirms that about 2 percent will see their taxes increase under Obama's plan.
In an effort to focus more effectively on small business owners, the Tax Policy Center did an additional analysis where they looked at people who reported business income that accounted for at least 50 percent of their income. This means people who derive a significant living off their business income.
In 2007, about 2 percent of those tax filers would have made enough money to see a tax increase under Obama's plans.
There is a small bit of uncertainty in the best data available; it includes some people who we would not think of as traditional small business owners. But still, Obama's statement during the debate that "98 percent of small businesses make less than $250,000" matches the findings of a respected, non-partisan group of tax analysts. For that reason, we rate Obama's statement True."
Oct 31, 2008 08:27 am Is it receipts or income that we're talking about here? Two very different things.
Oct 31, 2008 08:30 am Net profit
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Oct 31, 2008 09:14 am Hate him? I'll get back to you on that. I haven't decided. In fact I've never met "Him". I have a cat named Goose because she was a little "loose in the goose" as a kitten. Another cat named Moose becase he is well a huge Moose. What Obama is proposing strikes me as a bummer, and so shall he be.
My point is that he is out of his league and can not substantiate any of his plans. Business goes where it can best contuct business. Higher taxes will never be absorbed by business. Business will downsize, move away, pass on tax increases to the consumer or try to get government bail out. Three thousand for a new full time employee. Well then, I'm a business owner and I am taxed at a 40% income rate. I will receive 40% of 3000 or 1,200 for hiring a new full time employee. I can hire an american to turn a nut on a wheel for $40/hr or an Asian for $6/hour. Hmmmmmm, my tax break is gone before the first 40 hour week on the job. I feel sooooo incentified! Now if I'm McDonnalds I may be a little more excited. The government will pay for the first six months of any new full time employee. In as much as they rarely last more than six months anyway because they can sell crack and make better money this could be a good deal for me.
Big business will address their greed only when they have squashed the consumer to the point of having no market place and governments stop bailing them out.
We have opened the doors to a world economy. There will be leveling. The ones to watch are the ones who are taking the money and running before the leveling hits hard. You can't tax them. Their gone.
Oct 31, 2008 09:22 am Without honor among men, top down, bottom up or any other sort of redistribution won't work. Bottom up pushes jobs over sees and closes businesses, top down, well, it never seems to trickle down as much as it could...
AT the end of the day, not even "the most powerful position on earth" can make men act honorably and do business honestly. We are, on the whole, a narcissistic society in many ways.
Oct 31, 2008 09:37 am tax policy can be fixed, changed, voted out of office completely in four years if americans decide to do it. if they decide they don't like it or if it isn't working.
but foreign policy is worth considering carefully. mistakes there can change the world's power structure.
america right now needs something other than a posturer who's taking his lead from ideologues. when i hear mccain speak on the world, i hear autonomous, thoughtless reflexes. the republican party has become kneejerk and anti-intellectual. vote them away now and they'll go reform in the wilderness and come back with a person who reflects the best of conservatism. they'll come back with someone who's not afraid to course-correct based on the facts on the ground. the republicans are 'afraid' right now, and that's why they're not winning. they think they have to be either bush or reagan.
a conservative for obama speaks in forbes magazine:
"Conservatives used to ask the tough questions and did not accept simplistic solutions. That is why it is deeply disappointing to me, both personally and professionally, that John McCain has run a campaign that is so antithetical to rational discourse about public policy. His campaign has been about glib answers to complex problems. His choice for vice president was political malpractice.
He has catered to a wing of the Republican Party that believes everything will be all right--if only the government gets out of the way. No matter the problem, that is the only acceptable solution. To suggest that research about or thoughtful analysis of a situation might, in some cases, point in a different direction is apostasy.
For these Republicans, simply the act of doing policy analysis must mean that you are a liberal. They know that real Republicans, and real men, don't need to think things through. I do not respect these people. They have dragged a proud movement that had much to offer our country down into the mud of ignorance."
www.forbes.com/opinions/2...1030wilcox.html
----
in case anyone's seriously worried, america isnt 'going socialist.' obama's not winning because americans are suddenly super-liberal. obama was right on one point from the very beginning: doing the same thing over and over and over again, when it doesn't work, is insanity. it's the worst thing you could do. people were feeling that, and he identified it.
Oct 31, 2008 09:43 am by the way, from what little i know about him, i hope bobby jindal makes a run for the right soon. his 'exorcism' quirk is a problem, but it doesn't really bother me too much. that's a serious guy down there in louisiana, seems to me. or that's the impression i got through my brief exposure, anyway.
i really hope someone like him challenges palin if she ever decides to run.
Oct 31, 2008 10:03 am Man, that quote from Forbes sure nailed it.
That is all. Carry on.
Oct 31, 2008 10:10 am That was a good read, thanks for the link, forty. I will say, however, I am on that believes things are better the less gov't is involved. So I guess I am one of those conservatives he disrespects, but yeah, some problems just aren't solved with simplistic answers.
I am almost entering the world of Herb and simply don't want to vote. It's my civic duty, so I must, and I DO want to vote locally, but for president, I just don't know.
Oct 31, 2008 10:19 am Quote:
I am almost entering the world of Herb
Come on in. The weather's nice and the beer's cold.
Just pay no attention to the little voices.
Oct 31, 2008 10:21 am oh, so it's not just me hearing them, good, good...
Oct 31, 2008 11:34 am
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Oct 31, 2008 12:56 pm Figures, You beat me to it dB! My daughter emailed me that one yesterday and I hadn't gotton around to posting it.
Nice succinct post per top down vs bottom up. Therein is the answer.
If a government official wants my vote he better start talking about something he can effect. What I want to hear from government officials is how they are going to work more, draw less, equalize their benifits to mine. I want them to talk about their efficiencies.
JDODBrother Number OneMember
Since: Jan 22, 2008
Oct 31, 2008 03:19 pm dB, I have to disagree with you that things are better when the government is not involved particularly in respect to ecconomics.
If you leave business to govern themselves you end up following Milton Freidman's priciples to the nth degree which is a recipie for disaster.
I'm sure when he first forumlated his economic theories he thought they were sound, although I bet when he put them into practice and found out that all that happened was a small number of wealthy people got stinking rich, debt transfered from the public to the private sector, while capital moved from the public to the private sector, he probably didn't mind to much.
Runaway Chicago School capitalism don't work. Its even been proven not to work. But it did make the rich richer....so thats fine I suppose.
JDODBrother Number OneMember
Since: Jan 22, 2008
Oct 31, 2008 03:25 pm As an aside, I was chatting to a mate of mine the other day and we were saying that we would really like chaired pre-electoral political debates like you have. They are really good.
All we get is a slanging match in the House of Commons with both Parties (teams/mobs) facing each other accross the floor, shouting at each other like football supporters (hooligans)
Oct 31, 2008 03:28 pm I disagree. On the whole, the free market can do a lot. Some regulations in some cases can be helpful, but on the whole, the free market can do a lot if everyone participates. Competition and free market breeds better products and lower prices for everyone.
In America we have labor unions demanding high wages for unskilled positions, gov't is instituting minimum wage laws which makes our product price higher. This forces jobs over seas so that product can compete with overseas competing products, or, the businesses simply fail, either way, costing American jobs.
We are told to buy American, but American products, in some (many) cases are inferior products being made by union laborers that can't be fired, or the cost of them is simply too great for the average family to afford.
Some gov't involvement is good, I agree with that, but, it seems to me that their job is to "govern", not to dictate. Governments everywhere have lost site of what their true job is. The government is not there to act as one big teet for everyone to suckle from, it's there for basic infrastructure and enforce basic law to keep people from killing each other.
Government has grown FAR too big.
Oct 31, 2008 04:18 pm I found this funny
Oct 31, 2008 04:41 pm Yaahaha
Oct 31, 2008 05:55 pm dB...that's a funny poster. Any truth to it's message?
Quote:
OK, since this is Fox News, most liberals will say "oh, well that's fox" and blow it off as worthless, but still
Not necessarily...a lot of us have open minds. That's why I try to read from a lot of different sources and viewpoints. Kind of like the CNN link I posted above that was essentially blown off as worthless...
The Fox article shows that the Dems need to get their **** together, that's for sure.
Oct 31, 2008 07:13 pm i believe in the free market. i think self-interest is self-organizing and that that's a powerful force, the most intelligent and productive engine that you could have for an economic system. i just think there have to be some strictures controlling and limiting the game as well.
i've never seen an article on it, but it's just my feeling that when there are no limitations whatsoever you can get into a situation pretty rapidly where there's some kind of lock-in. running with db's 'gridlock' idea for a second here and kind of turning it into something slightly different, i think the economy is at its most inventive and creative when many people have the resources necessary to play the game. complexity theory shows that systems are at their most creative when they're straddling the edge of chaos, right between chaos and order. the chaos allows for creativity, and the order sets the boundaries of the playing field.
total free market means some people at the top are going to make decisions that lock up the entire system and change the boundaries of the game. i got into an argument about tournament rules vs cash games in poker with a friend the other day. i was thinking back to one of their tournament games i sat in on. it was a $20 game, but they were playing tourney rules. i felt that they were trying to play a pro game in a setting that couldn't support it. a situation rapidly evolved in which one guy was forcing everyone out in almost every hand. and he never had to show his hand when that happened, so we could never evaluate how often he was bluffing. once he had enough chips--and it happened pretty damn quickly--he could afford to basically buy everyone else out of every single hand by making it too expensive for them to be in. he must have been bluffing 80 percent of the time, but we had no information about it because of their tournament rules about showing hands.
in a more casual home game, if you're in on the final betting round, sometimes you can choose to rule that the cards must be shown for all remaining players. it does several things in a small game. perhaps the most important thing it does is it gives players the feeling that if they're just observant enough, they might learn to read the bluffer. bluffers have nothing to hide behind except for their own acting ability. the playing field is leveled *just a bit* and the result is that everyone is quite competitive.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Oct 31, 2008 11:11 pm Quote:
but because of effective message management, (lying with a straight face) incredible campaign architecture, (being operated by the political party that wants him in as their pawn) and the ability to "SELL" a very specific story. (con the public into believing he is the new messiah!)
Sorry, he is nothing but an in-experienced puppet. They are playing a hand of cards that is going to backfire on them. And the country (We the People) are going to pay the price and suffer for it.
To be honest, Ms. Pallin has ten times the experience he has in government affairs. But people still think she is a flake as well.
His record as a sellout and a con speaks for itself. AS I said, he is nothing but a puppet, pure and simple.
Besides, anyone else notice how he seems to have gotten darker in color since tossing his hat in the ring? Funny how make up does those kind of things when the politico's tell you it will help sell your image to the poor and unfortunate. Most of whom have never voted before, but the promise of free stuff will get them out to vote now.
Nothing but a sham. Nuff said. Buy it if you like. Myself, I can spot a worthless liar from a mile away. And honestly, they all belong in that group.
Go ahead and be pissed if you like. You just dont like hearing the truth. :-)
Oct 31, 2008 11:18 pm I will say this.
I'm proud of all of the extreme wingers that have chosen to become free and independent thinkers as a result of, and in spite of, their observations of modern politics and the media that present them, which have not accomplished anything but to try to divide people into factions.
Political parties are factions. Factions will destroy common thought and divide people.
Would one world government be wrong? Intellectually, no. Pragmatically, yes. It just can’t happen because of these pervasive ways of thinking:
1. My country is the best country. I’ve never been anywhere else, but I listen to my neighbors, we talk to one another, and they tell me that the people over there are ********.
2. Their perception of God is not right. Their book says some of the same things in slightly different ways, but their interpretation is way off. My version is right.
3. Their customs and way of life are different than ours. Obviously, this is inherently wrong. We must suppress or kill what we don’t understand. Hey, it’s human nature. Not my fault.
I could add more, but that’s enough.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Oct 31, 2008 11:33 pm Nice Herb.
That is why all the foreign ******* come here. They can make our government bend and change all the rules to give them free stuff and make new laws so that we can't do the things we used to because it ******* offends the ******* that should not ******* have any say in the way this country is run any ******* way.
Cool, longest run on sentence I have had in a while. Gave the swear filter a work out to I see.
zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
Nov 01, 2008 12:14 am Speaking of 'one world government' ... can anyone name a SCI-FI movie involving earth that doesn't have an implied unified government? I can't... It's as though it's inevitable... and quite honestly I'm fine with it... I would just preferr that people would be more involved when it does pop up...
Nov 01, 2008 01:25 am One extraterrestrial is all it would take. I'll be on the next saucer out of here if possible.
Nov 01, 2008 07:54 am noize, i said 'sell a story' for a reason. it's not like i wasn't expecting some reaction there. but it's what happened and it's part of how you win campaigns, and it happens in every campaign. or, this time in mccain's case, fails to happen.
palin has executive experience but has apparently never given thought to national issues. obama has no executive experience but has been thinking serious thoughts about serious things for years and years.
are you suggesting that obama is 'coloring himself?' really? that doesn't even make any sense and is not realistic.
last, even conservatives--even fox news, even bill o'reilly and even everyone on the right--acknowledge that obama's campaign mechanics are something we've never seen before. no one is denying that campaign itself is an unheard of success in all its details and particulars.
if you want to criticize obama, why not stick with real stuff? there's plenty to choose from. that's why i sometimes agree with conservatives here. a point's a point.
zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
Nov 01, 2008 10:22 am I would say his color changes are probably the result of the news media lighting. Black people are usually grey under standard lighting... once you change the set up they get darker... screw it up and they turn orange... obama has been a bit orange recently :)
the problem of course is dealing with skin tone when each station is color balancing differently sometimes it does get pretty exaggerated... Remember Jane Pauley's talk show? In an effort to make her younger they really cranked the color balance... you could not wear red on that show...so all these poor guests wearing red lipstick looked like they had a one inch bead around their mouth.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Nov 01, 2008 12:17 pm Herb,
I respect your intelligence and I respect the postulates that you have delineated per "we must supress what we don't understand" however; I do understand these people, and I do not want to share my country with them. Let me be blatent.
I have Hesbula High sitting less than five miles from me. They cheered at the outcome of 911. They want to kill me because I am the infidel. I don't want them in my country, let alone incorporate "empathy" for them in my constitituion.
I have five projects within a mile of my home. They enjoy smoking crack, doing meth-anphedimines, kicking in doors in the middle of the night, robbing people in the streets, shooting each other at parties, living in a gang land mentality, creating children they do not raise. They would be more than happy to kill me because I have worked my lifetime and have accumulated a few things they could sell to buy more crack. I don't want them in my country, let alone incorporate "empathy" for them in my constitituion.
There is a reason this country exists. At a simple macro level, it is because these people wanted a way of live that was supported by THEIR government. Now because this country has done very well for itself in a very short period of time we have many who what a piece of it. The quintessential difference we are facing now is a turning away from open doors to those who wish to be a part of it to an acceptance of those who wish to destroy it.
Quite frankly, I am no longer sure what the people want. The 2008 modo of "Change" seems to be serving as a drug. Real pipe dream term that brings a different image to each of us. This is an ingenious way to appeal to everyone without comitement. At a macro level it states abandon everything we have. This would be a grave mistake.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Nov 01, 2008 02:50 pm No one in their right mind will defend Bush. But we elected him twice!
Now per our revenge we are screaming
Give us Barabas!
Nov 01, 2008 05:35 pm A few weeks ago I was looking at very old presidential debates on youtube. I watched parts of Nixon-Kennedy and parts of Clinton-Bush. Both Kennedy and Clinton were running on a 'change' theme, using the exact word. As Walt says, it's a blank slate kind of thing, but it answers certain appetites that come up in nearly every election. It's like a perennial campaign theme. Difference this time is, Obama really marketed it in a hardcore way and turned into a movement. This was possible mainly because of attitudes about Bush.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Nov 01, 2008 07:56 pm Just read one truthfull piece in the news, stating what I have been hearing from the streets for a couple of months. If Obama doesn't will, there will be hell to pay the next day.
These aren't the poor people I want to help. Give us what we want or will burn you out. Those people can't be helped. Whatever you give them they will consume and destroy, you with it.
I'll vote, but I don't think it matters anymore. Time to move out with the businesses that saw this comming and leave this country to the dregs.
zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
Nov 01, 2008 08:13 pm It's sort of like an OSU game in the late 90's... If they lose then they burn a lot of cars... if they win they burn a lot of couches...with a couple cars...
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Nov 01, 2008 08:27 pm I'm with you Walt.
Were should we go?
I'm thinking about a nice little island somewhere in the South Pacific.
Nov 01, 2008 09:10 pm My in-laws have said on more than one occasion, "If Obama wins, we're leaving the country." I advised that they should begin packing.
I figure that if a Democrat president is all it takes for one to want to renounce one's citizenship, then their true patriotism also comes into question. No offense Noize, and I'm really not trying to start a fight. Some things just really bug me. NO, some things make me want to take a wire brush to some people's heads. No, some things make me want to... ah, never mind. As I stated in another thread, if the option to leave the planet were possible, I'd be the first in the ticket line.
Then again, other planets may contain ******** too. What's a human to do?
Now, let's all take a deep cleansing breath.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Nov 01, 2008 09:32 pm Well then, I'm not going anywhere if I'm going to end up with my nards being subjected to a stiff wire brush.
But, its funny how this entire country can be brainwashed into voting for someone with so little experience. A man who denounces the American flag, God and Family.
This country needs change, and I'm not talking more handouts for the poor. The majority of whom can get up and fend for themselves, but refuse to because they think this country owes them something and should take care of them.
He also thinks we should bend over and take it in the *** and let the new immigrants have their way and WE should change our way of life to accommodate them. What the hell is that all about. They came to America to be free and be here. Then they damn well better live like an American and not force us to change our way of life because it offends them. They can kiss my *** and so can the idiot Osama if he is elected, which I am sure he will be.
Nov 01, 2008 09:42 pm Oh now.
Have you really listened to what the candidates have been saying, or are you reacting on assumptions of Obama just because he's a Dem? Is he automatically a liar and a Marxist/Socialist/Communist because of the party he's associated with? Doggone it Noize, you're smarter than that.
Obama, believe it or not, is a good man who can help change this country for the better. It may be time to realize that the same old same old is getting old.
I'm getting old too. And enough is enough.
Four cents.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Nov 01, 2008 11:10 pm Get over it Herb.
The Democrat vs Republican gig died 100 years ago. You have two people with two world views.
And yes, I listened to Obama say "my Muslim faith".
Yes I heard Obama say he wants to change our constitution with favoritism for blacks and Hispanics.
Yes I heard Obama say he was going to take control health care system and put it under government control. That is socialism.
Yes I heard his plans of redistribution taking from the preceived rich and giving it to the poor, again with favoritism. That is not only socialist it's TRIBAL!
Yes I know of his influences to include the Weathermen. I lived in that era. Burn babbbby Burn!
Yes I know who he called in regard to the bailout. Five black justices. That's predjudice.
Yes I know his voting record on the second amendement. Take control; if somebody abuses something take it away from them all. That's a control freak, and that's socialist.
I don't give a rats *** what polticial umbrella he hides under. I don't want his agenda.
Nov 01, 2008 11:12 pm Fitting that my first post in probably close to a year is on politics...
I voted entirely republican. The reasons:
*I don't want an entirely liberal controlled lawmaking puppet show because that removes some of the checks and balances the Constitution intended the government to have.
*McCain's tax plan is better for the economy (despite what people may tell you, trickle down economics does work, is working, and is the reason why we're in recession right now because it works TWO WAYS - both with gaining money, and with losing money) even though I personally will pay $500 more in taxes with McCain, I am able to see how his plan is better for the greater good.
*On the job training takes at least a year, and nobody in their right mind can say Obama is ready to become the most powerful man of the most powerful nation on earth. Quite frankly, I feel I am as qualified as he is to be president, and the sad part is that I'm not delusional either.
*It bothers me that people have made songs up about Obama, and there are reports of people fainting at his appearances
*Blind faith in somebody we know very little about is even more disturbing
McCain is who he says he is, and there is no doubt about that. Obama... who knows? I'm not going to bet on a gamble, because I see nothing concrete about the man.
All that being said, if he gets elected, I hope I never have the opportunity to say "I told you so".
Nov 01, 2008 11:25 pm I just had no idea some of you were seriously buying the 'Muslim' idea. The flag/God/family thing is also strange, to say the least.
Nov 01, 2008 11:30 pm Walt. Knock it out. It's not working for me any more.
I still love ya though.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Nov 01, 2008 11:40 pm No need to say it. In another eight years we will dive from the socialist ditch back into the ditch we are in now if there is a country left. I envision it going the way of Liberia under Obama.
Nov 01, 2008 11:44 pm I hope I can get a bazooka if that happens, I've always wanted one...
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Nov 02, 2008 12:10 am Love you too Herb, but you're going to have to put up with it until the fourth. I've watched this country try everything it can do to destroy itself from Tricky Dick to Clinton to the Bushwacker. Now this. Holy Christ!
If he wants to do something for "his" people he needs to talk about them adopting cultures that do not foster AIDS epidemics and crack epidemics to start with. Not tell the world they need to be more accepting of this culture. Of course the good Reverand Wright told him the white American government invented AIDS and infected his people with it, so I guess from that perspective what does one do.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Nov 02, 2008 12:18 am Ya Ken, I really loved playing with the L.A.W. (Light Anti-Tank Weapon) when I was in. I have often wished I had one when one of those ghetto-blaster-mobiles drive by, you know the new melimium ice cream trucks selling crack.....
boom ba boom
boom boom ba
BOOM!
Nov 02, 2008 01:16 am but walt, he is telling 'his' people that. several times he's gone out of his way to talk directly to black fathers, telling them to shape up. in televised addresses! i don't know where you guys are getting some of this stuff. i got into an email discussion with one of my good friends, who is a republican. i kept asking to stop with the right-wing radio broadcaster memes for one minute and maybe you'll get me into a corner where i'm forced to talk about my own criticisms of obama. but he never did. every week it was more of the really angry stuff which he was definitely getting from his radio shows.
Nov 02, 2008 01:21 am lol, mccain's opening sketch on SNL is pretty good. mccain/palin on QVC for their own (cheaper) infomercial. good stuff.
Nov 02, 2008 01:27 am These political threads on HRC are the same as all of the others on the Internet. There's always two or three wingers on each side, an intellectual or two, a dumbfrack that just parrots things he heard elsewhere, and an obligatory troll.
I'm not pointing fingers. Just calling it.
You can decide which one I am. Be fair and balanced.
JDODBrother Number OneMember
Since: Jan 22, 2008
Nov 02, 2008 05:10 am I cannot believe some of the small minded ******* ignorance of some of you. Its pathetic.
Bye.
Nov 02, 2008 06:40 am Actually, the American gov't didn't invent AIDS, the Club of Rome did in order to help rid the world of "undesirable elements".
...depending on which tinfoil hat you are wearing...
And for the record, different does not equal small minded. Everybody is entitled to their opinion..
I personally believe most of what Walt is saying, Obama will do everything he can to wrap this country into the one world gov't type mentality...but where I differ is that I don't think it'll happen.
Socialist Health Care will suck, that may get done, then we can say goodbye to our Mayo Clinics, to our health advances and research, and all the reasons people come HERE for care, because the options don't exist in their country...ya know why it doesn't exist in their country? Because they have socialized medicine and there is no reward, or motivation, for research and development. Like forty said, as long as whatever gets done can be undone, fine, if we take the socialized medicine route, that will NEVER be undone.
Nov 02, 2008 06:53 am i was always hoping there could be some way for two different kinds of medical systems to exist within one country. i dont understand -- because no one's explained to me, and i don't know this stuff well --why that can;t be
Nov 02, 2008 06:57 am yeah, then have the gov't get sued for descrimination or something when some "underprivledged" person dies going to the "walmart" medical care facility ...argh...
Nov 02, 2008 08:12 am Wow. Just wow.
Nov 02, 2008 08:33 am well, that wouldn't happen. but there's probably a simple and obvious reason why the idea is untenable. i just don't know what it is.
Nov 02, 2008 09:06 am The easiest way I see to have "two systems" is that any gov't subsidized health care is simply a different kind of "insurance card". Kinda like WIC for babies and whatnot.
That said, doing completely away with the current system would be a HUGE mistake, and would be a HUGE drawback for medical research worldwide.
One thing I really don't get, is that, if the American Machine is so incredibly broken, why are people still crawling over each other to get here...that just doesn't make sense to me.
Nov 02, 2008 09:08 am When the turditionally red states are all turning blue in favor of a liberal socialist nigro, ye just might as well acksept it, y'all.
Get it yet? Republicans are unpopular. Get over it, reinvent yourselves and come back later when you have something worthwhile to offer the country.
In the meantime, shut the **** up.
Honestly, I held that in as long as I could. Cut me some.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Nov 02, 2008 09:32 am Well Forty, I'll give him that one on your word then. I am truly glad to hear that. God knows I can't catch every TV broadcast. Most of the kids my wife teaches know nothing of the concept of a father. Half of them are being raised by Grandma or Aunti because Mamma be a crackhoe.
dB, that is a stich! Wallmart Medical Center. I can just envision the ER department. "Medical associate to the ER counter please, customer waiting, I think".
This whole discrimination concept eludes me. Throughout my working lifetime it has been nothing beyond and excuse for a double standard. In the millitary I got Harvey in my platoon. Oh happy day. Every time any work came up or when his normal duty shift rolled around he'd be yellin deeescimenatin! My superiors would just send him to his room and the rest of us in the platoon would have to do our work and his. That to me was discrimination. Then came corporate life. I'd hire per qualifications and to a degree I was blessed in as much as I was hiring degreed people. I always ended up with a mixed crew of color and sex that fell right along the percentages of how many of each group had approperiate degrees. Then I would get one of the protected ringers. Oh Joy. Here we go again. Won't work, can't fire it. Ok folks double up. Then came smaller business. This was non-degreed hiring. I fired one because it would not work. Holy Crap! It was screaming it was gonna kill me and the other honkeys like me, It was screamin mf mf mf at the customer and this was in a churh that was the customer. That crew was about third thrid third right down the line. Everybody was ducking! In the mean time on the home front a couple of years ago there's a drive by shoot out between the crack dealers in the house and a rival gang. My neighborhood gathers together and trys to press charges. Oh no! Saz the local police, we can't do that! That would cause cival disturbance! Then theirs my buddy, great base player. Stabbed six times trying to deliver a pizza because these two had to kill a honkey to be in a gang. No charges pressed. Their under-privledged! They don't know any better. No charges pressed. Oh, and of course in both instances no news coverage. That would be bad for the image of the community!
And now we want more. I have this clown who wants to re-write my constitution with "empathy" for these bozos.
I hope you are right dB. I hope he is ineffective, but at present I see him smile on TV and the sheep swoon and say Oh Yes Messiah! Your will be done.
Nov 02, 2008 09:41 am Walt, did you read my last post?
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Nov 02, 2008 09:48 am Easy there Herb. It's all over a few days. Either one of these puppets elect should have enough to do given the state of the nation to keep them from doing any real harm for awhile. As for We the People, we will just have to put up with it as usual. I am begining to wonder who we the people are however. I watched everybody scrambling to be part of the dot com scam until it blew up then everybody stood around pointing fingers at each other. I watched everybody moving into McMansions until that popped and again all the fingers came out. I watch all these gangs forming. I see the CEO running off with his golden paracute as the ghetto banger steals **** out of my shed. I see the middle manager playing video games and the warehouse employee asleep in the parts rack at GM.
Maybe this country just isn't for me anylonger.
Nov 02, 2008 09:50 am
I saw Jesus' face in a dog's butthole.
Nov 02, 2008 09:53 am Well, there goes any respect for Herb I ever had, right down the terlet...
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Nov 02, 2008 09:53 am Oh sorry there Herb, missed that one. Hope you feel better. As I was saying, That Bummer is just the last thing this ..........
Why is it that when someone else is more upset than I am, I feel so much better!
Badd wally badd wally!
Nov 02, 2008 09:58 am Like you ever had any respect for me, dB?
It's just a picture.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Nov 02, 2008 09:59 am That looks like the guy I held the door for at the convenience store yesterday, except the jailor pants hanging around the knees are missing. Oh sorry, the picture doesn't show the knees. Did you hold a door for him too Herb?
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Nov 02, 2008 10:06 am Ya dB, If you'll let me get by with my Kenyan flag herolding ObamaNation, Herb's picture really should fly as well. I have to admit I really like Herb's pictorial sense of humor.
Nov 02, 2008 10:08 am I once saw a cloud that looked like Walt and dB hugging one another. It was very nebulous, and I could only see it if I kept my left eye shut. Weird.
Nov 02, 2008 10:12 am Deleted By dB Masters
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Nov 02, 2008 10:18 am That's cause you be right brained! Youse gotta closses yu left eye to be seein! You Honkey! Listen to yu Reverand Wright, he sets yu strait!
Nov 02, 2008 11:09 am All right. I'm going to say this, and it may get me permanently banned, but here goes.
Many things have been wielded as weapons by the right wing and used as bullying tools for far too long, and it's all pussy tactics.
The right attempts to justify itself by claiming that if you don't like God, The Country, Guns, Flags, etc. then you’re not a true American. Well..
Screw God. He’ll send you to hell, because he doesn’t have the nerve to eliminate the sissy Devil? I scared the kids on my front porch last night. The entire time, I was playing an invisible man. Maybe I’m God.
Screw the right wing definition of “country.” I love the country. It’s very nice to look at. Most of the time, it’s unpleasant to hear on the radio though. I like the country a lot more than I like the people running it. Screw the “country.”
Screw guns. They cause more problems than they solve. Stop. You know it.
Screw the flag. It’s a piece of cloth that flaps around in the wind, waving like a dick. All countries have flags, but the United States seems to spend an inordinate amount of time obsessing over it. Grip time.
Conservatives: Please quit before you get farther behind. It’s OK to admit when you’re wrong.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Nov 02, 2008 01:20 pm Just for the record.
I'm the pot stirrer. This crap aggravates the hell out of me, so I figure I'll do my part to get things even more stirred up.
My personal opinion is that there is no truth in anything any of the candidates spouts out of their collective mouth's.
It is all about the show and who can make the public feel they are more believable.
This government has done nothing to make my life any easier over the years. Will it start now because of the promises made by either of these fellows?
The answer is simply no!
I'll not venture back into this thread and stir it up anymore.
Nov 02, 2008 03:01 pm Obama never admitted he was wrong about the effectiveness of the surge. Everything goes both ways...
Nov 02, 2008 05:43 pm couple things....
ken, obama did admit many times that he was wrong about the surge. what he didn't do--and this is good, it's something you *want* in a candidate--is he didn't phrase it in the language the other side wanted him to. why? because then it's a soundbite and the candidate screws himself. you will therefore never hear obama saying 'i was wrong.' to do that would be political suicide. instead you hear him say 'the surge was effective beyond anyone's expectations, even my own.' which i'm pretty sure is an exact quote. he telegraphs that yes, he was wrong, but he avoids the soundbite moment. you'd want that in a republican candidate, that sort of intelligence and the ability to smell when there's a trap. it's something that joe biden doesn't seem to do very well. it's important to be able to do this sort of thing in a campaign, though, and for a democratic candidate in particular, for many of the reasons herb mentioned. running against 'modern' republicans (this is not a statement about conservativism but rather about the memetic devices that have taken over the modern republican party) is like walking through a field set with many traps. step in one and a ready-made narrative is sprung. it happened to kerry, it happened to gore. it happens to democrats because modern republicans will deploy these ideas without shame, calling any other challenger with any other philosophy anti-american. they have succeeded in making the definition of 'american' so incredibly narrow that they have effectively imprisoned the country and made 'thinking' a sin. this alone is reason enough to send the party back to the wilderness. why? because it potentially cripples the nation. the slow slide that can result from such a thing might not be visible in real-time because it's all very feel-good for those who are conservative. believing that 'i'm right and you're wrong' is a powerful drug that hooks into personal ego rather than national ego.
so send them away. this stuff is a contest of ideas, and republicans are going to need some new ones. when a new creative conservative emerges and when the scare tactics are dropped, that'l be the day i can believe the right has the country foremost in mind instead of politics, and then i'll be able to give their ideas consideration because i will trust the source of those ideas.
second thing: i'm pretty sure that obama doesn't believe in affirmative action, actually. there have been a few statements that make me think he thinks its counterproductive. he is very much more focused on economic opportunity, and he seems to realize that opening doors because of race doesn't do anybody OF race any favors ultimately. i mean, look at him. he's assiduously avoided playing that card in his own campaign. someone said in an article that it's pretty clear he's not aiming to be a black president but rather just a president. that appears to be the game he is playing here, and it's upset peoples' expectations. everyone expected the first back candidate to be overly concerned with racial matters because every black politican has been so far. but since that wouldn't have worked (and everyone but jesse-jackson types seems to know it, too) he didn't do it. again, it's being aware of what's needed to win. in this case, though, i actually have seen evidence that makes it clear that affirmative action is not an idea he wants to push. in fact i kind of think we're moving out of that for good very soon.
Nov 02, 2008 06:05 pm Here's a fragment of the Obama Father's Day speech, delivered at a black church and televised. It's likely he wrote this one largely himself, like he wrote the race speech himself.
www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS...s.ay/index.html
" Of all the rocks upon which we build our lives, we are reminded today that family is the most important. And we are called to recognize and honor how critical every father is to that foundation. They are teachers and coaches. They are mentors and role models. They are examples of success and the men who constantly push us toward it.
But if we are honest with ourselves, we'll admit that what too many fathers also are is missing - missing from too many lives and too many homes. They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it.
You and I know how true this is in the African-American community. We know that more than half of all black children live in single-parent households, a number that has doubled - doubled - since we were children. We know the statistics - that children who grow up without a father are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime; nine times more likely to drop out of schools and twenty times more likely to end up in prison. They are more likely to have behavioral problems, or run away from home, or become teenage parents themselves. And the foundations of our community are weaker because of it."
...
"But we also need families to raise our children. We need fathers to realize that responsibility does not end at conception. We need them to realize that what makes you a man is not the ability to have a child - it's the courage to raise one."
...
"It's up to us - as fathers and parents - to instill this ethic of excellence in our children. It's up to us to say to our daughters, don't ever let images on TV tell you what you are worth, because I expect you to dream without limit and reach for those goals. It's up to us to tell our sons, those songs on the radio may glorify violence, but in my house we live glory to achievement, self respect, and hard work. It's up to us to set these high expectations. And that means meeting those expectations ourselves. That means setting examples of excellence in our own lives."
zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
Nov 02, 2008 07:08 pm it's getting ugly in these last couple days...
McCain recoils in horror as Obama 'Crushes His Head'
Nov 02, 2008 07:38 pm This here thread beautifully illustrates the problem with our country and this whole electoral process: it's very divisive. There is so much hate and ill will toward people with differing viewpoints.
No matter who wins, there will be approximately 45% of the country that will actually WANT the country to go down the toilet, just to satisfy their vindictive egos.
There are way more things that make us alike than there are things that make us different. Most importantly, we're ALL Americans and we ALL want what's best for this country.
Shame on those of you who would suggest otherwise.
Nov 02, 2008 08:10 pm The funniest part is, that much of what keeps the parties fighting are subjects that really have no business being controlled by government in the first place...the personal choice/moral position kind of choices in life...government has no place (in my opinion) dictating personal choices unless those personal choices affect others.
zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
Nov 02, 2008 08:30 pm I just noticed from the picture that I posted that both candidates at least agree on shirts...
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Nov 02, 2008 08:54 pm Jim, good point. One small detail though.
And this is not to start another arguement, it is a simple statement, which has been made by the candidate himself.
That would be the non-Americans who come here to supposedly be Americans, except for the fact they want to still live like they are in their country of origin. And that we need to change our lives and not do the things we Americans grew up doing because it offends them. Only one of the candidates wants to help them achieve this goal.
Nuff said.
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Nov 02, 2008 09:02 pm geez you guys are really into this stuff.
its good to see some major passion happening.
i cant say a great deal, i dont know a hell of alot about it.
but, i will say this.
No government does anything for its people.
the government does things for the government.
we are just part of the food chain.
if they were allowed to do it all without our votes, by **** they would.
a democracy is better for the world economy.
Nov 02, 2008 10:28 pm i don't agree with amnesty for illegals myself. something's gotta be done, but i don't know what. i do not know what to do about that issue.
HuePinnipedal Czar (: 3= Member
Since: Apr 11, 2004
Nov 02, 2008 10:49 pm I'm voting for the one who makes an SATA cable that stays put .
Nov 03, 2008 07:59 am forty, the immigration thing is something that everybody has their heads up their asses about. EVERYBODY is way, way over thinking that subject. Tighten the boarders, and whoever is inside, if they break the law, send 'em back. simple as that. No fuss, no muss, if they aren't breaking the law, well, they shouldn't be a priority, but, at the same time they should be entitled to NO tax dollars for ANYTHING.
I also find it funny that people seem to not realize that things were quite good for a long time, and everything started going to hell once dems took control of the other two branches. Not saying it's all directly related, just seems like an amazing coincidence.
zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
Nov 03, 2008 02:00 pm Hue... I think Nader would be the likely choice... he has the Nader Bolt... maybe a Nader Clip?... of course when the hard drive crashes you'd need the 'pliers of life' to cut open the hard drive in order to extract your data...
