new take on loudness wars...
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olddogMember
Since: Jul 02, 2003
Jun 15, 2007 01:48 am I pretty much agree with that. It's not like making things louder is any thing new, every decade gets louder, at some point you have start sacrificing dynamic range to keep getting louder. People like loud :)
There are certain types of music that do indeed need a lot of dynamic range, and those types of music are still recorded/mastered to leave that dynamic range, most rock/pop doesn't require it so who cares if somebody wants to slam the ceiling? Not me, if I like the song It just isn't an issue as far as I'm concerned.
Dan
Jun 15, 2007 02:03 am well, to me....it is an issue...it's sad, that with todays techniques, we can't put out music that "pleasing to the ears".....after all, isn't that what music is supposed to be?.....but yeah, i was hangin' out in the mastering forum and in every other thread, loudness came up...and, beein' the "button pusher" that i am, while reading i started thinkin'...what makes 'you' so right (and i try to think that on myself)...but these guys are very uptight in their ways...so i figure, why not flick them in the ear!
if i'm lucky, bob katz will chime in!
good to see ya dan, how ya been?
Jun 15, 2007 10:29 am For me, compression and limiting on music are fine, as long as I can’t hear them working. There’s a fine line between getting all the elements in the mix to be audible, and making the thing sound like it barely survived a nuclear war. Intentional overkill has its place too, though. I smashed the daylights out of my vocal track on “How to Request a Song From the Band” because I wanted that arrogant, in-your-face quality.
WYD, you hit it on the head in another thread when you said something like “If the waveform looks like a 2X4, you’ve gone too far.”
As far as loudness goes - ehh, isn’t that what the volume control is for?
It's depressing to think that the concept of high fidelity may be becoming obsolete.
Jun 16, 2007 04:08 am Maybe the current state of hi-fi equipment has so high noise floors that the record companies are forced to make it as loud as possible. Cause when that volume gets past 4..... hiiissssssss. :-)
But I'm sure thats not the case lol. Records coming out these days still sound good to me. Sure, people go over the top sometimes (*cough* audioslave *cough*) but its become almost a pre-requisite(sp?) for rock music to have an arsenal of comps and limiters over the stereo bus. Its all becoming part of the sound of new age rock IMO. You still get engineers like Russel Elevado who refuse to have their mixes flatlined and sit in on the mastering sessions (gearslutz interview), but all in all, they could ease of a bit and as long as it doesn't get any harder (god knows it will though lol) I'm still a happy CD buyer.
Jun 16, 2007 04:48 am Quote:
Glad your drunk, only a madman would say that without grog
i was gonna say "what's grog" then i found a wiki on it...so n/m
kinda funny nobody's puttin' me through the ringer for sayin' what i said...i thought for sure, this would spark some debate.
Jun 16, 2007 10:35 am Well, the loudness limit (0 dB) has been reached, so there's nowhere else for the argument to go. Once all 16 bits have been switched on, the only other option is to turn the damn things off, right?
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jun 18, 2007 08:58 pm You all know my comments on this subject so I'll just leave it with the fact I still like my music to have a feeling to it. And if all the 1's and 0's are maxxed out then there isn't much life to it at all is there?
olddogMember
Since: Jul 02, 2003
Jun 19, 2007 12:10 am I don't think that's necessarily true. Dynamic's can be attained with other things than volume. Not that I think all rock or what have you needs to be or even should be squashed but volume alone soft or loud isn't the last word.
As for loudness limit you can go higher, just not with 16 bits, when everything eventually moves to 24 bit that 0dB threshold will be alot higher.
Dan
Jun 19, 2007 12:21 am see, i thought this too....like 24 bits has way more usable dynamic range (noise floor to clip)....and some day we'd have 64bit A/D D/A converters that would be impossible to clip.
unfortunately, that's not the way it works....0dbfs is the same (voltage/level) on any bit depth....higher bit's equal lower (more subtle) level changes and sounds that you can bring up ALOT and still have a good 'picture' of the sound.
i don't think i'm explaining it the best i can...lemme try to dig up something.
Jun 19, 2007 03:37 am To clarify.... Bit depth is your units dynamic range. And yes, more bit depth = more room from noise floor to clip, but a 0dBFS clip is a clip in any bit depth/sample rate/ format etc. etc.
Jun 19, 2007 10:37 am Seems like having 24 bits of dynamic range is unnecessary, since lately, no one is even using 16 bits' worth anyway.
Jun 19, 2007 10:46 am It's completely necessary if you are producing hi-rez audio for uses such as sound tracks, surround sound applications...as 24 bit is the standard.
Jun 19, 2007 11:02 am I know that, but it's like a woman with a closet full of shoes who only wears three pairs of them.
Jun 19, 2007 03:59 pm LOL!
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jun 20, 2007 09:44 pm I edit in several formats, 24, 32 and 64 as well as 16. It really depends on the material as dB stated. If it is for hi rez files going to sound track or the like of loops that will be getting wacked by some one else I will usually work in as high a bit and sample rate as possible to maintain a good file to send off to whom ever is getting it. On the other end if it is going to be done as is and doesn't need a lot of work on my end then it will be worked on from start to finish in 16 bit 44.100khz.
The higher bit and sample rates allow for some very fine editing and a lot less signal degrading.
Jun 20, 2007 10:07 pm Quote:
I know that, but it's like a woman with a closet full of shoes who only wears three pairs of them.
but, much like a graphic artist always saves the most high rez version he/she has for later editing, isn't it best to have the most hi-rez version available so when the application of effects, bussing, submixing, mixing and crap dumb it down and bastardizes the file, you have the highest rez available to convert to that 16/44.1 format?
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jun 20, 2007 10:27 pm Herb, that is my wife for sure. 300 pairs of shoes and only wears 4.
Jun 20, 2007 10:28 pm Oh yeah, I did the last project in 32 bit, as AA 1.5 has no 24 bit option. I almost had to purge my wife's shoe closet for space to store the files.
Jun 20, 2007 10:29 pm Hey, can you admins see what we're typing before we hit 'submit'?
Jun 20, 2007 11:10 pm bits are like RAM, you can never have too much...i'll probably rock 44.1 until the bitter end, but will ALWAYS go max bit depth.
flame...bringing sexy backMember
Since: Jul 01, 2002
Jun 21, 2007 03:44 pm [quote]
Hey, can you admins see what we're typing before we hit 'submit'?[/quote]
Nope, but we can read minds, so it works out ok overall
Jun 21, 2007 04:04 pm Quote:
Nope, but we can read minds, so it works out ok overall
I knew you'd say that.
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
Jun 21, 2007 04:14 pm Quote:
Nope, but we can read minds, so it works out ok overall
That's it! I've gotta get a refund for my foil hat.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jun 22, 2007 11:23 pm What flame said. But with the addition. When you submit something and then delete it later or change it we can still see what you typed in the original submitted post. So ya, I've seen all of you make mistakes, or say one thing and then quick change yer damn minds.
And just so you know, I get emails of every post as does dB. Not sure if flame has em turned on or not. For me it lets me catch up without having to go and click every post in the forum list pages. I just remember the thread number and then delete em quick if I know I've been to that thread already. Makes life quick and simple for me. But can fill the mail box real fast if I'm gone for a weekend camping and such.
But its all good on my end. I've gotten a few good chuckles seeing what some people change their minds on.
Jun 22, 2007 11:44 pm Changed my mind on this post. Noize, you'll get it in the email.
Had I known that every time I fixed a little spelling or punctuation error I was also jamming your inbox, I would have paid more attention. I guess I'll be typing more carefully.
And where's my boy scout DVD?
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jun 24, 2007 05:42 pm Nice one Herb, indeed I did get a good chuckle out of that. Too bad no one else will know what we are talking about now, cept for dB and flame.
Regarding the BS DVD, Tim is bringing them over tonight or tomorrow and I'll shoot your out on Wed. or Thur. I'll email you when it leaves here.
Jun 24, 2007 08:08 pm It just occurred to me that asking about a boy scout DVD may seem a little odd. We'll just keep the rest of them wondering...
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jun 25, 2007 06:15 pm Thats kinda the way I looked at it too. They will just be pondering the kind of nut cases we really are, if indeed we are that.
Jun 25, 2007 06:18 pm we only get the original post emailed, not updates or changes to it...I've seen some rather alarming things at times...to go and see the person wised up and lightened up the mood a little.
Jun 25, 2007 06:19 pm lol ****, i edit posts alot!!! my bad...
Jun 25, 2007 06:21 pm yes, yes you do.
that said, I pretty much ignore about 50% now since I have so much automated these days, I am thinking about shutting my alerts off, I know Noize likes 'em tho.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jun 26, 2007 07:43 pm Yep, I do. It just makes it easier to wip through them and pick out the new ones or Pro and Internal. Or if I'm going back to check a thread that is ongoing I simply remember the thread ID and if that comes up I know it is one that I might click into and check out. Plus if it is something I want to go back to sometime for reference I have some folders set up to just drop the email into to go back if I need it.
Jun 26, 2007 09:33 pm can y'all see how many times i hit refresh, or click home!!! or even or how many times i log on to the site?
Jun 26, 2007 09:37 pm I can track a lot, I could probably get a ballpark of logins and stuff, but never bother...too much work :-)
I just get email alert to forum posts, classified submission, news submissions and junk like that, I just like to stay alert to user-submitted content so I can nix stuff that sucks quickly.
Jun 26, 2007 09:57 pm good man!
Jun 29, 2007 01:52 am I agree with all of you, the only thing that sometimes makes me do "loud" albums is that most of the people (and i mean the regular guy who just buys a record and plays it in his home stereo) associate "loudness" with professional records, you may have the best sounding record but if the record isnt in the loudness standard, they'll say something like "its a good demo, but not a good record", that really makes me wanna scream, because loudness and overcompression doesnt make a good record, just the opposite, but of course i cant blame them because they are used to that "standard".
The thing is (i think) you should think about the style of music you are recording and the target audience, if you are making pop music, and you want all the people to buy your music, you should really go and pump up every last bit and db out of your mix, but if you are doing another style, lets say a little bit more "free style" like jazz,fussion and so, you may have a chance to do things your way and not to overcompress a mix. As there is a set of elemnts that make every style unique, like rythm, melody, instrumentation, etc, theres also compression.
In the "pop" music example, you'll probably wouldnt add something like a heavy metal distorded guitar, or a doble BD pedal, on a pop song; it doesnt matter if you are really into metal, it's just weird or "out" of the style, it happens the same with compression, some styles of music (sadly) demand a heavy-squashed compression, and if you want to stay with the standars, you have to do what the standard demands, if not just do what you want, you just have to be concious of your goals, is your main goal to sell a record or album?, or, is your goal to change the entire world's perspective of heavy compressed albums?, if so just do what ever you want and go get it!! , some of you may answer "both" i would also like to sell a lot of albums and change everyones ears, but in the real world it may take some time before people realize what you already did.
Jun 29, 2007 07:46 am Quote:
but of course i cant blame them because they are used to that "standard".
This is basically the same crowd of people that are responsible for talentless people becoming stars as referred to in another recent thread www.homerecordingconnecti...13277&frm=4
And I agree, they really can't be blamed for the overall decline of the music industry. It's not personal to them, it's entertainment thats all, nothing more nothing less, so decisions are made by what entertains them.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Jun 29, 2007 09:22 am I agree. I've found the psychology of the whole R&R industry to be a stich. I have bands that come in and when they listen to their recording they can't believe it's them. So, ok fine, I align everything, put sound fonts in place of their drummer, etc. and walla! We have them!
I can A-B songs that I record with that done in pay for studios on a label-less burnt cd and bands will pick my recordings first. Do the same thing showing them the labels and the pay for studios are definately much much better!
Some years back a few manufacturer's started using final amps in car stereos that did not produce distortion past 3-O-Clock on the volume knob. Sales plumated. People associated the distortion at high volume with 'good' sound.
I've read numerous articles on fans who critisized live performances because there was a really cool "screatch" or "grrr" or whatever missing in the performance. The sounds they missed turned out to be damage to their albums. This was during the days of vinal.
I love listening to people talk about concerts they went to. They'll tell you about what the people on stage did, wore, yada, yada, nothing about the music.
Alice (Fernier) devoted 1/3 of every rehersal to theatrics only. No music. Ya gotta know that acts like Britney Spanial devote a much larger portion of the time to air humping in their shows.
So why should the concept of 'loud' be any different? It's a circus. Music is background.
Jun 29, 2007 09:32 am Well, in all fairness to theatrics, if one pays to go see a concert, they do pay to see a show, correct? The show is part of it...and deserves some practice as well...especially wqhen working with things like pyrotechnics and such (remember what happened to James Hetfield, anyone?).
I don't blame bands for that, I think it's cool when I have seen little things like Billy and Dusty from zz top get into a groove musicially and physically jamming together, spinning their fuzzy guitars and stuff, it's all part of the show. A concert SHOULD be more than just the music in my opinion, if it was just the music I'd put on the CD and save $100 from buying the tickets.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Jun 29, 2007 09:48 am I agree fully dB.
I bring these things up to bands that I work with not to discourage them in any way. It's all about being heard and seen. These are the things you need to do to be heard and seen. Those few people that may truely appreciate the music will never hear the music if you don't entertain the the rest of the folks that don't have that level of appreciation. I get the biggest kick out of my fellow band members in an R&R band. They will stay after a show to collect kudo's and come home all pumped up. Then they will go back to the same rehersal they did last week. They assume when people say it was 'good' that 'good' means that little trill on the keyboard or twist on the wammy stick that they are so proud of. Usualy when a little more listening is done to the audiance it is more about a real cool grimice while singing, or how somebody bent over, or how someone just looked like they were having a great deal of fun. Good marketing stems from good marketing research, a lot of listening, an open mind and the ability to create a product that people want.
Jun 29, 2007 10:17 am I used to always rub a bandmate the wrong way when before shows he'd have some weird clothes on, or, he sweat a lot one show so the next he'd have some stupid *** looking headband or something and I'd say "dude, ya gotta wear something at least human-like"...or "loose that headband" or something, he'd get all pissed and say the old cliche' "it's not about the clothes, it's the music maaaaaaaan" and I'd call bullshit and say it was for us, but not people there, if ya wanna look like a bum, thats fine, then let's all look like bums, if you wanna look classy, let's all look classy...and I wasn't talking uniforms, just a common theme much like and CD of songs need to sound like they belong together, we gotta look like it.
Man, we'd have endless arguments about that, all I wanted was to put our best foot forward, but if one single second was spent talking about the show or appearance of the band he'd get all offended and crap.
Stupid as hell.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Jun 29, 2007 10:33 am In our band it's all about lack of impulse control. We'll talk about a common theme and get 100% argeement and everybody will show up in whatever last minute 'cool' thing they responded too. We'll get a thousand complaints about the babbling inbetween songs and our singer will get lost in a sermon every show. Our manager has been begging us to meet and greet and sell merch at the end of shows for six months, but at the end of every show someone will grap at least two of our members on the way off the stage and they will hang out and bask in the Kudos. It bothered me when I had the concept of the band going somewhere, but once I internalized that it was a dead horse it became fun just to play and watch. Keeps my fingers from freezing up until I can find a band with something going on.
Jul 10, 2007 06:44 pm The video in the link says it all. I'm so happy that since I only record for myself and my own ears, I don't have to kowtow to someone else's idea of how "loud" something is supposed to be. Like I, and the narrator of the video said, loudness is what the volume control is for.
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