Sep 25, 2003 05:43 am I forgot to add that I'm running Windows XP.
That's all! Goodnight.
The Newbie's Manifesto (Advice is sorely needed)
Posted on Sep 25, 2003 05:35 am
Ilan
Member Since: Sep 25, 2003
Hey Folks,
First off, hi. I've been reading for a few weeks now, and you all seem real friendly and helpful. Gives me hope here.
Here's my situation. My fiancee and I would love to put together a nice enough demo to give to bars and coffee shops in the area. We'd also eventually love to produce something we could sell pretty cheaply at our future gigs. I play mainly acoustic guitar, a bit of electric, and do a bit of singing. She rocks the piano, does a bit of hand drumming, and has an absolute powerhouse of a voice (think Janis Joplin crossed with Emily Saliers of the Indigo Girls crossed with Aretha Franklin... no, I'm serious. :) )
Now, originally, I did very little research and bought a Fostex MR-8. In fact, I ordered two of them and returned both because they both had a major bug. Then I was THIS CLOSE to dropping $500 on a Boss BR-864.
That was when I found you guys.
Of course, I'm opting to record to my PC now. So, I need some major advice before I spend all this money. We are definitely on a budget, but still want to get as much quality as possible.
Here's the deal. I own a Dell Dimension DIM2350 Intel Celeron (1.7 GHz). My RAM is 256. I've got a 60 gig hard drive, 40 gigs of which I can keep clear for recording. I plan on registering N-Tracks for the $45 bucks... I already have Cool Edit Pro 2.0. I also have an acoustic Martin D-15 equipped with a K&K Western SBD transducer which I run into a Marshall AS50R. Also, a Shure Beta58.
Our total budget is $500-$650.
For the most part, we will never be recording more than two tracks simultaneously, 'cept maybe here and there. However, I have a fairly experimental personality, so I will probably be doing lots of multi-tracking.
All my research has culminated in the following list. I am DESPERATELY seeking recommendations and opinions on the following choices based on my system abilities and musical/budget limitations. Here goes.
1) One condenser microphone:
a) Rode NT1A $200
b) MXL 2003 $150
c) Behringer B-1 $100
d) Studio Projects B1 $80 ($100 if I
include the
shockmount)
2) One mixer:
a) Behringer UB1204 Pro Eurorack 12 Input Mixer
$108
b) Behringer UB1202 Eurorack 12 Input Mixer
$80
c) Behringer UB1002 Eurorack 10 Input Mixer
$60
3) One compressor:
a) Alesis 3630 Compressor $100
b) Behringer MDX2200 Composer Pro Compressor/Limiter $80
4) One sound card/audio interface:
a) MAudio Delta 66 $300 ($230 if
I buy on
Ebay)
b) MAudio Delta 44 $230 ($185
Ebay)
c) MAudio Audiophile 2496 $150
I am also TOTALLY CLUELESS about what cables I need and where to get them and how much they are. Any help with THAT would be awesome!
So, including $45 for N-tracks, and let's say about $55 for various cables, the most expensive combination would be $808 -- which is obviously way out of our price-range. The least expensive combo would be $490. I need advice in finding that middle ground.
While I'm at it, I also have 3 other short questions:
1) I don't have the money for studio monitors yet, so I'll be using my AKG 66 cans for now. Where the hell would I be plugging them into for playback/recording and for mixing? The MAudio card?
2) I have a couple of 7 year old Bose stereo speakers that cost about $350 when I bought them. Is there any way to use those as temporary monitors? If so, how?
and finally,
3) Would you guys recommend I buy those MAudio cards from a reliable online store like MF or Zzounds, or is it reasonable to take my chances on Ebay and save the money?
I know this was completely long-winded, but I'm really excited to receive as many opinions as possible. I know you guys get newbie posts like this all the time, so let it be known that I REALLY DO appreciate any and all input!
THANK YOU!!
~ilan
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Sep 25, 2003 05:43 am I forgot to add that I'm running Windows XP.
That's all! Goodnight.
Sep 25, 2003 06:04 am Wow, soudns like you've done your homework. i can't really help with much, but I'll leave my comments while everyone else (the experts :O) hehe) wakes up:
1) all popular mics there. I have no expereince with any of them, as the only condenser i own or have ever used is the Oktava MK-319, which I love dearly, easily my best microphone and I only paid $90 for it. I might also recommend you get some other mics, maybe a dynamic or two. The reason is mic placement makes such a big impact on your resulting sound. Like a piano for instance; it's going to be hard to mic the whole piano with just one mic unless it's positioned like 6 feet away. someone correct me if i'm wrong
2) do you really need 10 or 12 inputs? I've got the old MX802 by Behringer, 8 channels, and I've never used all eight, not even in a live setting. In fact, while recording I've never use more than two. But truthfully, anything under $100 is a ood bargain, so knock youself out ;O)
3) also some popular choices here. I have the dbx 266xl which does nicely for me on acoustic or electric guitar, bass and vox.
4) here's where maybe i can help. I have the Delta 44. 4 ins 4 outs. I've never needed all four inputs as i've never recorded more than 2 inputs at once, but I recognize that I may in the futre so I'm very happy with this interface. Lots of routing options, variable settings for the input and output levels and software too. Very flexible. The Delta 66 is identical except is had digital S/PDIF as well? you really need digital? I don't personally own anything with S/PDIF ins or outs so it would be useless to me. The Audiophile is another popular choice, but one taht I have no experience with. One big difference with the audiophile is that it has RCA inputs instead of the balanced/unbalanced 1/4" ins that the 44 and 66 have. I'm not sure how this will affect your set up, which brings me to your other questions:
what cables you'll need depends on what mixers and soundcards etc you'll be going with. If you get a mixer with 1/4" TRS outputs and you go with a Delta 44 or 66, then you'll want some 1/4" TRS to 1/4" TRS cables. I have a several pairs, 3', 6' and 50' for big jobs. They basically connect my mixer to my interface. You don't need TRS balanced lines, but they'll reduce noise and signal loss on longer runs. If you go with the audiophile you'll of course need something with RCAs on one end. I'll let one of our many audiophile own comment on that. You'll also need XLR mic cables for however many mics you plan you be using at any one time. Be sure to avoid the cheap 2-conductor XLR cables and get only high quality 3-conductor XLR. You'll need 3 conductors for things like phantom power for your condenser and for balanced lines etc.
your other three questions, i'm not sure I can help too much. I still monitor off cheap headphones or my home stereo system. Which is fine for demos and rough drafts, but surely unacceptable for a professional take. You should plug you headphones into the Delta 44 or 66 outputs, but instead run it somewhere to be ampped properly. For instance 90% of the time I have my Delta 44 outputs 1 and 2 run back into mixer and I use the mixer's headphone amp and then the control room outs are going to my home stereo inputs. With the click of a switch or turn of a knob I can route my ins and outs anywhere I want (well, with minimal plugging and unpkugging)
hope that helps. You seem to be a capable and fast learner. I'm sure once you've hung around here awhile you'll be able to make informed descisions for future purchases.
Sep 25, 2003 11:46 am Well, if you don´t plan to record more than two tracks at the same time, get the Audiophile (I have one and love it) for the compressor, I have a Behringer Autocom XL and I find it to be very clean and flexible so I recommend the Behringer.
I used to connect my mics and sondcard outputs to a Behringer MX802A and it did a pretty good job, I think they are about $50 in MF's, you don´t need more than that(if you plan to stay in the two tracks path at a time for a reasonable time).
I think that you don´t need N-tracks cause CEP 2.0 can handle the task for you.
I'd recommend to get 1 or 2 good condensor mics (Rode NT1A, Audio Technica 3035, Studio Projects C1 or B1) cause I too think that you'll need two mics for the piano or to record hand drums in stereo.
A setup like the one above is about $540 - 580 where:
- Audiophile $150
- Behringer MX802A $50
- Behringer MDX2200 Compressor $80
- Condensor Mic $200 (AT3035, Rode Nt1a, etc)
or two Studio Projects B1's (160)
- Mic stands 2 $40
- Cables $60
Good luck!!
Sep 25, 2003 01:02 pm real quick, I agree with Sonico that you don't need to purchase N-Track if you have Cool Edit Pro as it is a very capable multitracker AND wav editor. And as far as purchasing on eBAY, I have bought a nice condensor mic, and a my Delta 66 with no problems from the respective sellers or the gear.
Sep 25, 2003 02:15 pm Yeah CEP is more than capable and the delta soundcards most often come with software to record on (Buying from store at least, not sure about off ebay). As far as monitoring through your phones go, I would hook the outs of the soundcard back into the mixer, and run my headphones out of the mixer. Just me though
Sep 25, 2003 05:27 pm Thanks for all the quick responses! Here's what goes down so far:
I ordered a 256 stick from Dell online for $54 (free shipping), giving me 512MB RAM. Awesome. I've also decided to go with the Behringer UB1202 mixer, although I haven't purchased it yet.
Now, I'm pretty much set on buying the Delta 44 card off Ebay for $185, but... I've read great reviews of it, and I've also read about a lot of problems with it. However, I've never seen anything bad about the Delta 66... which technically is more than I need, but I'd be tempted to get it if it's more likely to function properly. Any advice?
Microphone: Tempted to go with the MXL V67G, but I found a great deal on 8th Street.com for the Studio Projects B1 -- includes windscreen, pop filter, tripod boom mic stand, carrying bag, mic clip, and cable for $130. I'm still looking around, though...
The compressor: True, I could wait on it if I have to... which I may do. The Behringer Composer would still be within my budget, but now I've been reading that it may not be the best compressor for vocals. Do you guys find this to be true? A lot of people recommend the FMR Audio RNC -- looks great, problem is that it's $100 more expensive than the Berry. What to do... what to do.
N-Tracks: I'll hold off on it until I confirm that I can manage Cool Edit Pro for recording. Thanks for that advice. :)
As far as buying 2 condenser mics... I'll have to settle for one for now... and try to combine my dynamic Shure with the condenser.
Any other good advice coming down the pipe? It's wonderful to read ANYTHING.
Thank you again.
~ilan
Sep 25, 2003 06:25 pm Ya, if you are running CEP, going to n-track seems silly, kinda like going from a bulldozer to a garden shovel...
As for sound cards, good target, the Deltas kick butt. Also remember if your tastes grow, you can run two or three Deltas side by side on the same PC...just an FYI.
My compressor is a dbx 266 and it is really nice. a little coloring in very high compression, but a nice unit. The coloring I actually kind of like...which is weird...
UB series mixers are great, I have the UB1622FX-Pro and it is really nice.
Just my two cents...
Sep 25, 2003 06:36 pm The Delta 44 and 66 are really the same thing, the 66 just has the digital I/O's. The sound quality is the same. There are a lot of people who have had trouble with the cards (Including me, at first), but the trouble isn't related to the card itself, it's related to computer conflicts which can be resolved 99% of the time. If you have any trouble, just post about it and we'll help you out. It should be fairly simple. They really are great cards.
In regards to the compressor- I have the Composer Pro and I think it's a great piece of gear for the money. The RNC is almost surely better, but I don't know if the difference would justify the higher price in your case. I find that the Composer works very nicely on vocals.
As for a condenser mic, I can't say as I've used any of the ones you've suggested, but I've always heard great things about the Rode NT1 and have heard a couple of recordings with it that really sound great. Basically, if you want to be reassured that you're getting a good condenser then go with the Rode. Shure SM57's and SM58's are the industry standard for dynamic vocal and instrument mics, and I would recommend picking up one of two of them if you're going to record more than one track at once.
Sep 25, 2003 09:15 pm "Ya, if you are running CEP, going to n-track seems silly, kinda like going from a bulldozer to a garden shovel..."
That made my day.
Sep 27, 2003 01:14 am By all means stay away from a Alesis compressor! The 3630!!! Yuck!
Mine is only used for a shelf in my rack! he he
It could also work great for holding up a RNC compressor in your rack(my soon to be new use)
Shred
Sep 27, 2003 10:04 am haha... Well, I guess it can still be used for something :) I've never used it, but I think I've heard some negative comments from some trusted sources regarding it.
Sep 27, 2003 02:26 pm Update:
I just ran into an extra $150 from an unexpected source, so I've got a little more breathing room. I've bought the memory and the Delta-44 card. They're on their way. I've decided to definitely go with the Behringer B1 after reading a large number of fantastic reviews of it on Zzounds. Now, I'd like another condenser mic for my acoustic guitar, and I'm torn between
a) the MXL 603 or
b) that Studio Projects B-1 bundle (pop filter, boom mike stand, shock mount, etc, etc)
I know a small diaphragm is more attuned to instrument recording than the SP B-1 is, but I'm wondering if it really makes that big a difference? Is the SP B-1 versatile enough to do the job for vocals/acoustic guitar/piano/electric guitar? Or is the Behringer, for that matter? I'd love to get that bundle jobbie for 130....
I'm also seriously considering adding a second hard drive just for my recording. My current one is 60 gigs, 45 of which I'll be able to keep free. However, I haven't been able to find out what the speed is anywhere. I'm looking into getting a 40 or 60 gig JB Western (I think that's the name) drive with 7200 RPM. Problem is that I don't know if it's compatible with my Dell Dimension 2350. I couldn't find anything on the Dell site about it. Anyone have any opinions or recommendations?
Also, if I have a second internal hard drive, does that mean that I have to move Cool Edit Pro over to the new drive? Or am I talking nonsense? I really don't know too much about computers and how their systems work in tandem with the hard drive.
I'm also holding off on the compressor, but I'll likely be purchasing the FMR RNC when the time comes.
Thanks for all your help guys!
~ilan
Sep 27, 2003 02:57 pm For another condensor, consider the Oktava MK-319. A lot of us here have them and have had great results. I've used mine for acoustic guitar, vocals, and percussion and it's been great on everything. And the price is right. You can get one on MF for about $100.
You shouldn't run into any compatibility problems with the hard drive. I'm not sure about the Dell Celleron machines, but I've put several different manufacturers' drives in my Dell P4 machines and have had no trouble. And no, you won't have to move your programs. They'll stay on your primary drive and you'll just use the secondary drive as recording media. This is actually the optimal situation.
Sep 27, 2003 08:35 pm Hi just to add my 2p.
I would personally skip the larger Behringer Mixer and instead consider purchasing a dedicated 2 channel pre amp) - ART, Focusrite and SPL are all good manufactures to consider.
This can then be combined with a smaller mixer (such as a behringer 602a or 802a) to simplifly monitoring arrangments.
As for a consdensor for acoustic guitar, I would reccomend a small diaphragm (sp) condensor mic such as an AKG C1000 or a Rode NT-3.
Regards
jues.
Sep 27, 2003 08:50 pm If you don't end up needing a mixer, Presonus makes this really cool little headphone amp ($99.00) that you can just plug into your Delta 44's outputs and get 4 stereo heaphone outs with their own volume controls. The best part of the little thing is that it also has a set of outputs for your monitors, with their own volume control and a mute button!
...Sorry if it sounds like I'm advertising or something, but I got really exited when I saw that mute button since I need one for my monitors... shutting them on and off just doesn't cut it for me-- plus they're really slow heating up. Behringer makes a good headphone amp for the same price too, but I don't believe it has those two great features.
Sep 27, 2003 09:18 pm Here's the link to the PreSonus HP4:
service.bfast.com/bfast/c...mp;bfmtype=gear
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