Advice on Mixing Piano with strings
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Posted on Oct 11, 2011 03:10 pm
Bharathram
Member Since: Oct 11, 2011
Hi,
I am a beginner in music production and I always have a hard time in mixing Piano with strings in the background. I use Truepiano VST for the pianos . I generally use the settings in the VST's as such. I am not sure on what parameters have to be changed for a better mix of piano with strings..I always feel that my piano has a too bright tone and doesnt gel well with the background. Can some throw advice on this. I can upload a sample and you can let me where I am exactly going wrong...
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J-botByte-MixerMember
Since: Dec 04, 2007
Oct 11, 2011 05:17 pm Welcome to HRC. If we could hear an example that would help.
And yeah, what with large sampled instruments it can sometimes be a little difficult to get them to mesh well especially if they have an emphasized stereo image. What I tend to do is set the strings back a little further in the mix than the piano. I also try to set the stereo space of the strings so that they fit with a typical orchestral layout. Violins on the left, contrabass on the right, etc. I tend to place the piano a little towards the left, maybe about 15 or 20%
If the piano is too bright you can try high-shelving the upper tones a little bit, and see if that gets it to fit in a little better and sound a little less harsh. Also, while I try not to use compression on such dynamic acoustic instruments, sometimes just a smidge will help glue them together a little. (set up an FX send track, and run the strings/piano tracks through it, and back out to the main channel, and you can mix the wet/dry signals a bit to try to find the optimal tone.)
There's a few ways to get sounds to play nicely with each other, and really it's all about what sounds good more than particular techniques or a "correct" way to do it. IMO, mixing is primarily an art with a little science thrown in along with a dash of common sense.
Anyway, hope that helps give you some ideas to try, and feel free to upload a snippet (you can do it via your profile) hearing what's going on can help us give a better critique.
Oct 12, 2011 02:40 am ummm forgive me for my frankness but strings and piano have blended quite nicely for a few centuries now.
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Oct 12, 2011 08:21 am Cant say im an expert on Piano, but its proly the same with alot of instruments, and guitar comes to mind here.
If yer getting too much brightness, figure out what freq its is that is up to the fore front. Are those freq's possibly smothering the strings?
Usually too bright can mean the freq towards the high end of the scale, to me im always sus on 1k to 3k. Its a matter of
1. Finding literature on the main desired freq of the piano.
2. The main working desirable freq for the strings.
3. working between the 2 and notch out freq accordingly.
eg, piano might be nicer with say 1 to 1.5k notched out slightly and the strings might get some benfit in this area.
Obviously you dont wanna put much if any reverb at all on piano, i dunno, its not really my thing but i would think reverb would mush up the attack in a way thats not desirable....unless you can really nail the reverb plugin parametres. little to no pre-delay.
But again you can mess with the verb time to slightly gloss over some of the upfrontness or attack of the piano when all else fails.
Oct 12, 2011 01:18 pm Deleted By Bharathram
Oct 12, 2011 01:42 pm Thanks guys for your valuable inputs. I have uploaded a sample file as requested. If you can tell me what is going wrong it would really help. I use ableton for sequencing , truepianos for piano .
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Oct 12, 2011 07:08 pm not much piano in that snipet there. maybe need some more if you can?
From what i can hear tho, sounds like it needs some mud taken out and it kinda does sound like it needs some mid to 1.5k notched out. Couldnt be real sure without hearing more piano.
J-Bot proly has more an idea.
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
Oct 12, 2011 07:13 pm Check your levels for starters. This sample sounds way too quiet for me to judge anything. I have to crank it up to hear it and that just brings up the noise floor.
J-botByte-MixerMember
Since: Dec 04, 2007
Oct 12, 2011 09:51 pm Yeah, I had Beer's problem. Had to crank everything way up to hear anything.
I had trouble hearing the background behind the piano, so I can't really comment on that.
What I can say is the piano didn't sound too bad to me. Making the piano any darker I think would make it too muddy sounding. It has plenty of warmth as it is, at least IMO, and doesn't sound bright across my speakers at all. (and my speakers are known for being a bit bright sounding).
If anything I'd suggest possibly looking at the lower mids or possibly upper bass area on the piano. There seems to be a tiny bit of mud, but it's not too bad, and I wouldn't cut away too much, else you'll lose some of the warm natural piano sound.
I can't really comment on the background instruments/strings because I couldn't hear them well enough to form any good opinions.
So, like Beer said, I'd check the levels first, and raise them up if you can. Giving us a good minute or so of a snippet will help us form a better critique since we can hear more of what's going on, and get a better feeling for how everything fits into the context of the piece.
And at WYD's comment: I didn't mean to suggest piano and strings had trouble blending. Anyone who's listened to Rachmaninoff or Brahms can attest to that. I just meant different libraries from different companies sometimes need some nudging.
Oct 12, 2011 10:20 pm Will upload again today and will let you guys konw
Oct 13, 2011 01:43 pm Guys..sorry I had actually uploaded a wrong file earlier. I have uploaded the correct file now. Its about 45 sec and its very audible now. Pls listen to it and help me out on where I am going wrong.
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Oct 13, 2011 09:15 pm i cant really hear anything wrong man. I do agree with JB, maybe scoop out some lower end mid so its little more crisp. Dunno maybe at 200 to 300hz.
Sounds like you could maybe turn up the strings if you wanna hear em more, but i cant pick too much wrong wth it.
What specificaly would you be wanting more or less of?
Is it more a tone issue? Or just the way it all sits together?
Oct 14, 2011 01:48 am Thanks Dematrix.
I will try scooping out some lower end mid and check out.I actually kept panned piano 15% to left as JB suggested. Do you think the tone of the piano could be improved further. I actually tried different presets in True piano and finally decided to use this. I am using reverb of 12 since without reverb it sound really flat..
Regarding the strings i panned it equally between left and right..
What do you suggest as a general setting for piano and strings together?
On the recording quality side need your advice on how to improve it. When I listen to some of the tracks in youtube made using ableton they really sound crisp. Is there something that I should learn to get this quality?
JB any suggestions from your side?
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Oct 14, 2011 02:36 am a good sound in your case will be down to getting the freq's right.
You cant really improve the recording of it as its already a vst, you can muck around with parametre and whatnot but i would stick to eqing. You already have all you need piano wise so lets trim off the excessive bits and make it better.
if you want it crisp find whats making it muddy. with yer reverb..., eq that channel and roll off alot of the bass freq's, or, on the plugin itself, tweak the low end back along with some mid range.
Reverb will make it muddy if you have too much low end and 300hz. So you might have a great piano sound but the cruddy verb will take it back steps.
IMO opinion try rolling off 20hz up to 80HZ then notch out some mud at 300HZ, then have a listen, if yer hearing too much mud still, then play around more in that area till you find what it is thats mudding it up, eg 125 to 200hz.
again not sure with piano JB may know, but it might pay to throw some compression at it to tame the volume a touch, but not to destroy the dynamic. Then you can turn it up some and get more of te crux of the piano sound.
cooloFrisco's Most UnderratedMember
Since: Jan 28, 2003
Oct 14, 2011 03:56 am Man, I'm really liking the warmth of that... I would say if you wanted though you could cut some eqs in the piano around 300-500Hz, but not too much. I would also play around cutting some mids out of the strings probably around 900Hz-2kHz and maybe boosting the volume of the strings some too.
Oct 14, 2011 04:14 am Thanks guys. Will try eqing based on your advice and check
J-botByte-MixerMember
Since: Dec 04, 2007
Oct 15, 2011 01:43 am Sorry for the late reply.
IMO the strings sound pretty good to me. The main thing is to take a look at the piano, and possibly, like Dema and Coolo said, look at the lower or low-mid frequencies. Think about how the piano sounds to you.
If it sounds muddy or too full, but you're not sure where exactly, try creating a narrow "notch" in the EQ a cut of maybe about 4 to 6dB, and sweep it through the lower frequencies until you hear where the "mud" disappears. When you're able to pinpoint the frequencies that sound muddy, then tame the EQ a bit. Make a more gentle curve than a notch, and just cut away a small bit. I wouldn't cut too much else you'll lose some warmth/fullness of the piano sound.
Also, one thing I recommend doing is getting to know the frequency spectrum as a whole. (got a link to a nice frequency chart for ya)
www.independentrecording....ain_display.htm
It can take time to get your head wrapped around the different parts of the spectrum, and it can be one of the more subjective areas of mixing because everybody's ears/systems/rooms/etc. are different. That's why we try to get a balanced mix, so that what we hear translates well to those other systems/ears/etc. I think learning the various ranges in the spectrum, the characteristics of the sounds those frequencies can produce, and familiarizing yourself with those sounds can really help eliminate some of the guesswork in creating a good balanced sound.
Another thing you can do while learning/adjusting/etc. is use a "reference" sound to help calibrate your ears. Take a sound that is very close to what you are trying to achieve, that you know is a decent mix, and play it over your system a couple times before you sit down to work on your own stuff. That will both help you learn where your setup's weaknesses are so you can keep that in mind in the future, and also help you hear the spots where your mix might be falling short a little bit.
Oct 15, 2011 01:50 am Thanks JB for your reply. I will try doing what you suggested but as I said earlier i am a novice in this field. So it will be great if you can suggest me some links where there have good text or demo on these mixing subjects in ableton...
Oct 27, 2011 05:55 am Hi!
Bharathran, I'd love to help you because we're both just about at the same point - I couldn't mix a jelly with a chef pointing a Uzi at me! But I'd love to help you find out stuff/work with you on stuff/anything I could do to help.
I've listened to your sample and there's only one thing I've got to say because I've just discovered this recently and feel like Homer Simpson on stoopid pills for not realising this earlier. Don't be afraid of volume. On the whole, what makes things 'sit well' together is EQ, not volume as such - if you've EQ'd a hole for an instrument to sit in, you can have the other instruments (within limits, others who read this, I know!) as loud as you want and because the hole's still there, so will the EQ'd instrument. Try it and you'll see what I mean.
Another thing I've discovered - again, generally speaking - is that if you keep instruments within their ranges, EQ usually means 'chop the bottom end off' so the next instrument down's got a space'. The logic of that says that the lowest instrument - bass or whatever - shouldn't need to be EQ'd at all, other than to get rid of any mud it's got - guess where - on its bottom! OK, you might find you need to shave their heads as well as wipe their backsides but you'll be doing more of the latter than the former.
Remember that I'm a rank beginner too, but something else I've discovered is 'add the ingredients one at a time'. If you were making a cake, chucking everything into a bowl, stirring it and bunging it into the oven wouldn't work. You add 2 ingredients, make sure they're properly mixed, then add the next ingredient the cookery book tells you to.... Music's like that, too, I feel, with my present (lack of!) knowledge. Make one sound sound nice, when soloed. Then add the next instrument and jockey around with the frequencies until they sound nice together. Then repeat with the next instrument and so on. When you hit the main, tune-carrying instruments you might find you need to do other things to make them stand out a bit so the tune stands out a bit - that's the area I'm having severe problems with, so I'm not going to even try saying anything about that. My mixes are getting-better backgrounds with a tune instrument that sounds as if it's still part of the background - aargh! I'm having lessons. I'm sure the instructor had dark brown hair when he started teaching me. It seems suddenly to have acquired a strange, silvery sheen...
If you want any manuals on Ableton/mixing in general, please PM me and I'll give you some LEGITIMATE, any mods who read this, PDF downloads. That offer's open to anyone else too. I've also got Cubase stuff which I'm trying to learn - manuals/instruction vids, not the actual program, they're all legal AFAIK, don't worry!
Yours harmoniously
Chris Burke
