Condenser Mic Crazy Talk
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Posted on Jan 21, 2007 04:14 pm
White_Knuckles
Member Since: Jan 07, 2007
Oh no, another dreaded newbie! Sorry, gotta start somewhere.
I have your basic DAW toys recording group sessions on the fly. I'm using 58's for vocal tracks. Later, with a little track tweaking and overdub the vocals sound very good. Will vocal tracks get noticeably improved with a condenser? I'm reading - yes!
In order to not make every mistake I invite tips about the mysterious condenser voodoo. My next purchase will be a large diaphragm flavor for vocals. Okay, sounds easy but pricing and technology are all over the place. I have a board with phantom and good preamps. The more I research, words like silky, vintage and "air" appear. Tube mics and tube pre-amps seem popular. Transformer vs. transformer-less? Wow! Help me brothers!
Seems like you can go through piles of stuff to land the magic mic. Hobby morons (like me) don't need Newman class, but even the most basic setups use condensers. So many brands! I thought a $150 budget would be in there including a stand clip, pop-filter, low noise cord etc. Is this crazy talk? Would an "entry" mic be an instant loser? I see snotty used mics with tube pre-amps for $150 on E-pray. What’s your experience with sound vs. dollars?
I want my first mic to work well of course with air, vintage and that silky sound. Who doesn't? Where do the best real world priced mics cross over to pro world? I wonder if I could tell a Newman from an ATG low line on my franken-system? If I did have Newman quality would I likely hose it making myself sound like U2 with effect goodies I slap on? Not to mention home mastering another topic of magic.
I know I'm going cheap. How about some suggested mics? The mic will not be used for field recording or on drums. Where's that sweet Chinese baby hiding?
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TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Jan 21, 2007 05:10 pm For entry level mics, there are a few brands that seem to do pretty well in the bang for the buck area:
- MXL has tons of entry-level mics. The V63 gets the best raves from what I've seen so far
- CAD does a pretty good entry-level LDC as well, although I can't remember the model number of theirs that Ive seen get the praise...I'll look around
- Studio Projects does some very popular sub-$200 condensors
- Rode NT1A is very popular for $200
- AKG even has a few LDCs for entry-level starters
The characteristics of microphones are pretty subjective when it comes to verbalizing it, so take the reviews on the net with a grain of salt.
The tough thing about buying a mic is that most places won't let you return a microphone once you've purchased it for health reasons. Plus its tough to find a local store that carries a wide variety of mics. So that makes it tough to get a feel for what they actually sound like.
For that first condensor, you just have to use your best judgement on what'll fit your needs the best. It looks like you've done lots of research already, so you're in good position to avoid making a bad choice.
Jan 21, 2007 05:24 pm actually anutrher suprisingly good ldc mic is the apex435, i got one when i started out for a gift and was kinda like...."thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaks...???!?!?.
but once i got it goin i liked the sound n stuff, i think it goes for about 80 bucks, not to shabby, and if u live in canada its easy to pick one up at long and macquade
LokiCone PokerMember
Since: Apr 07, 2002
Jan 21, 2007 06:47 pm First off, go here: www.homerecordingconnecti...d=492&frm=0
Double posting the same thing two times will NOT get questions answered faster, and may result in ALL of the posts being deleted. Please take the time to read and understand the rules before posting.
Jan 21, 2007 08:05 pm oops, sorry about the double post trick. I got excited when I found this site and thought both recording and gear forums were cool as monitored by people with different interests.
Moderators are my friends. You have my attention and respect.
LokiCone PokerMember
Since: Apr 07, 2002
Jan 21, 2007 08:12 pm Doesn't matter who you thought was monitoring the forums, the rules are the same. Also, the rules are posted on both forums, so really you have no excuse...
That said, I'm not gonna rag on you too hard, since I'm a nice guy (hehehe) just don't do it again alright?
Jan 21, 2007 08:23 pm Loki has been our mad moderator in the fields lately...good work loki, thanks for having no other life ;-)
The same folks moderate all the forums...this forum is different from most, we have different opics, but it's all one community...
Anyway, as far as condensors go, there are plenty of decent inexpensive ones any more, Sure Nuemann is great, but XML and others make very good gear for a far more reasonable price. as a home/hobby recordist, don't go for brand name bragging rights, go for quality and value. Lots of people would be impressed with brands, more are impressed with quality and couldn't care less about brands.
It's not the the road that impressed the end consumer, it's the destination.
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Jan 21, 2007 08:45 pm I picked up a Studio projects B3 for my first LDC. I was pleasantly impressed. I bought another one to replace the one I lost, and added a SP C1 for vocals.
Jan 21, 2007 09:01 pm
Yeah Loki, there's no excuse 'cause double posts sometimes are an issue with other sites I frequent. Should-a looked first.
Warning to other newbies/noobs this site is patrolled. Consider me corrected and spanked.
Wow, great information, thanks gentleman! Uh, forgive my butchering the spelling of Neumann.
My U2 reference meant I may be layering too many effects going for U2 type studio sound. Over-effects may erode from any "air" sound captured from a high-end mic. Some of my track tweaking goes into harmonizer and exciter land. So many toys, so little time. I tend to mix past room and delay basics.
As a prior stage performer, I eat mics (mouth to screen) and am used to the proximity effect of conventional 57/58's. The idea of sneaking up on a LDC sort of scares me. New mic technique for an old horse? That newer POP breathy sound isn't really what I'm looking for. I'm a baritone, with a slightly "blown" edge closer to blues singers not Bono by any stretch.
We only mic my '65 VOX 15-watt combo 10" with a 57. Never an acoustic (yet). Drums are Roland V-drums, simply lined in. Bass guitar is through a DI box straight to Mr. board. Keys are lined so I have only vocals to consider.
I'm starting to believe a LDC would really boost the takes into something I'm being cheated from. I may borrow a condenser and play with it awhile.
Jan 21, 2007 09:22 pm Too many forums are not monitored at all, then the jackasses take over and the forum gets to be no fun...we really try to keep it light, fun and educational for everybody whether a young kid or an oldster like me...
While a monitored forum may seem like a drag in the narrow focus, in the big picture it makes it better for everybody.
For the record, I feel the same way about condensers...give my an SM57 any day of the week...I just feel more comfortable, damned be the quality :-)
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jan 23, 2007 08:42 pm The CAD mic I think he was refering to is the E100, great mic with high SPL handling. And a pretty flat response. I have used it without the pop filter many times and it isn't half bad when you use the 10dB foll off switch and possibly in your case the low cut switch as well. CAD has s couple other's as well in your price range that are killer as well. Also the Audio Technica AT-3035 is another killer entry level LDC with a long standing reputation for quality. That one might be a good choice as well with your baritone voice. I would however advise a pop shield with that one though as it can pick up sibilance rather easily. I love it for female and acoustic stuff as well.
Now onto my favorite, but odds are really good you will not find a vintage one of these. The Oktava MK-319 would be the perfect mic for you use. But beware there are loads of fakes out there and they do not sound anything like the real thing. The newer real ones are a bit above your price range though. But with extra careful hunting they can be found used at a reasonable price.
TallChapAnswer:On a good day, lipstick.Member
Since: Jun 24, 2004
Jan 24, 2007 11:32 am Loki patrol....somewhat scary....
Anyhoo.
Quote:
"As a prior stage performer, I eat mics (mouth to screen) and am used to the proximity effect of conventional 57/58's. The idea of sneaking up on a LDC sort of scares me. New mic technique for an old horse? That newer POP breathy sound isn't really what I'm looking for. I'm a baritone, with a slightly "blown" edge closer to blues singers not Bono by any stretch."
I know exactly what you mean. I've discovered that a pop shield (the "stockings on a coathanger" type...not the foam condom thingy) set about 10" from the condenser is a great buffer. If you must press your mouth against something when you sing, you hit the screen and go no further. You still get some proximity effect, and it still cuts out a lot of the plosives. I have a baritone-ish kind of voice, and I have the tendency to crowd in on the mic (as you said, a habit from the stage thing). This worked for me.
As noted above, there are a lot of inexpensive LDCs on the market. I've had success with the MXLs, but others have not. Read, read, read....
I've found Harmony Central to be somewhat helpful - immediately discard the best and worst reviews, and then read through the rest and you can get a pretty good idea of how things work...or not.
There are mixed feelings towards the little tube pre-amps that are out there (such as the Behringer, ART etc.). Some like them, some don't (and don't start everyone off on plate voltages and tube saturation - you'll be here all day!!!). I've used the little MIC100 from Behringer to great success. It provides phantom power to your mic, and can add a little air/vintage/silky/ju-ju if used with some restraint. Just a thought.
2 cents...where's my change from a nickel?
TallChapAnswer:On a good day, lipstick.Member
Since: Jun 24, 2004
Jan 24, 2007 11:38 am Hey dB-Wan. Can I get my little PRO 1/4" plug back? I do miss it so! I've re-subscribed....Here's to another year of sage wisdom, and comedy.
Jan 24, 2007 11:51 am there ya go, thanks!
TallChapAnswer:On a good day, lipstick.Member
Since: Jun 24, 2004
Jan 24, 2007 11:51 am It's back!
Thanks dB-Wan.
Jan 24, 2007 12:16 pm I like my Shure KSM27, although I haven't had a heck of a lot of time with it.
HuePinnipedal Czar (: 3= Member
Since: Apr 11, 2004
Jan 24, 2007 06:40 pm I'll second the Oktavas(real ones), and especially the MK319 . Same inside as my MK219, but a more open capsule... warmer, not as dry .
I use the 219 for almost everything... thinking about sending it out for the mod that's available, but not sure if it's something I would need/want... they "say" it's well worth the surgery... comes out of it sounding like a Neuman, which made me skeptical .
Jan 25, 2007 10:49 pm Excellent, qualified advise appreciated. Thanks to all contributers.
TallChap cracked the door on tube preamps. Ah, the other magic in the signal path. My board has phantom but the "ju-ju", mo-jo and silk is perhaps buttered better with tubey delights?
I'm embarrassed to admit part of the need is perception. I hoped my setup would be more inviting to fellow players if I had a scary studio mic looking like it meant business. No noodling on the drums when the MIC is out!(Like that would ever work).
I think I have a pretty good setup minus what I believed was essential to any respectable recording fan. A big ol' mic. It's clear from contributors that LDC's are a tool you learn to use, not a requirement or something you rush into.
LokiCone PokerMember
Since: Apr 07, 2002
Jan 25, 2007 10:55 pm Quote:
Loki patrol....somewhat scary....
why is that scary? I'll be watching you...
TallChapAnswer:On a good day, lipstick.Member
Since: Jun 24, 2004
Jan 26, 2007 01:15 pm <--- Loki induced paranoia...
White_Knuckles: Indeed there's "juju" to be had with many types of tube pre, but you can easily do without.
Having a big ol' microphone means nothing if the sound's not there. It's all in the ears!
Depending on what I'm doing, and the sound I want to achieve, I'll use various mic types. I think that an SM57 has the most wonderful sound in certain situations. Another situation may call for an LDC.
Take a listen to some of CocofromScotland's stuff on HRC. I do believe he uses an SM58 for pretty much everything. Great sound!
cooloFrisco's Most UnderratedMember
Since: Jan 28, 2003
Jan 26, 2007 02:41 pm I'm personally not a huge fan of the sound that tubes introduce, but that's just me. It depends on what sound you're going for. I actually do have a Neumann though. I went into a store, A/B compared about 4 mics, and once I heard the Neumann, I decided that was going to be my mic. I had actually never even heard of a Neumann at that point, but you can't argue with results. I had to save up a bit to get it, but it's been definitely worth it!
On a personal note, I also really don't like the way MXL mics sound. The sound is super thin. I heard a Behringer mic that was cheap and didn't sound bad, but I can't remember the model...
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Jan 27, 2007 12:12 am Some of the MXL mics sound pretty thin, especially when misused. Being entry-level mics, they're prone to being used by entry-level engineers. But their tube mics and that V-series are actually respectable mics. Not so much when compared to a Neumann, but what is?
For tube preamps, really all they do in the budget price range is suck the highs out of your signal. Once you get into the full-voltage types like the Electro-Harmonix tube mic pre (less than $200!) or the Groove Tubes Brick both get good press. But those little starved-plate low-voltage designs really only use the tube for distortion, decoration, or both. Hell, most of them just put an orange LED behind the tube to make it look like its glowing! Not enough juice flowing through it to even make the thing glow.
But for the budget price range, you'd probably be better off with a solid-state pre. The FMR Really Nice Preamp (RNP) gets tons of good press. Or if you go even cheaper, the M-Audio DMP3 is a good clean preamp.
cooloFrisco's Most UnderratedMember
Since: Jan 28, 2003
Jan 27, 2007 05:18 pm Quote:
Being entry-level mics, they're prone to being used by entry-level engineers.
Good point!
Also, as a note, I'm talking strictly about using the mics for vocals in the previous post.
Jan 27, 2007 05:26 pm I think you should buy the best that you can afford. For the price though, you can't beat a Rode NT1000 :-). - $.02 NZ
Jan 28, 2007 02:52 pm
Hmmm, low voltage to the plate makes for PlaySkool quality sound. Not good. An LED to simulate a glowing 12AX7 - Arrrrgh!
I thought tubes made for "soft-knee" compression and perhaps the veritable silky tone. Clipping the highs and introducing distortion is not what I had in mind.
I have an (8)XLR/Line channel Phonic live sound mixer that sounds pretty clean and has phantom. The bonus is, it has 4 aux sends and 8 channel inserts to patch to recorder sends.
The B-1 seems to be a favorite swiss army knife and a good starter. Tube mic/pre? Forgetaboutit 'til I can play with a basic LDC. Now if I could just figure out whether to use out-board effects ahead of the rec send or run a dry signal to the recorder and add software effects later? My Lexicon reverb/delay unit sounds sweet but Audition canned and VST models seems close and more mix controllable.
The OwlProg Loving StrigiformeMember
Since: Feb 21, 2005
Feb 13, 2007 01:49 pm Good pointers here.
I too would recommend the folowing brands for entry level condensers:
Audio Technica
AKG (the Perception series is a great value)
CAD
Apex Electronics ( www.apexelectronics.com )
Studio Projects
Rode
Not too sure about MXL, heard MANY mixed comments on these in general.
One to ABSOLUTELY avoid at all costs is Behringer, they might sound good for afew weeks and sure as hell, they DIE on you in no time, quite typical of Behringer stuff unfortunately.
Feb 13, 2007 03:50 pm Another Behringer-hater. I would venture a guess your rather bad opinion of Behringer won't be very well received here. Lots of quite happy users on this forum.
I can't speak for their mics, but anything else of theirs I have owned has been just fine.
Tim NUh, at least one more time . . .Member
Since: Feb 07, 2007
Mar 04, 2007 09:08 pm I've been using a behringer B-1 for over a year now, and it is fantastic. I've got an old 2442A mixing desk too, as well as a few newer, smaller Behringers, and I've never had any problems. The
B-1 is beyond belief--great sound, and inexpensive. A sound engineer at the place where I bought the mic told me Behringer was the most reliable stuff he'd ever used . . . so, dB masters
and others are right on. Nothing's perfect, however, so maybe bad Behringer is just a spot
of concentrated bad luck.
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Mar 05, 2007 12:14 am Quote:
Now if I could just figure out whether to use out-board effects ahead of the rec send or run a dry signal to the recorder and add software effects later? My Lexicon reverb/delay unit sounds sweet but Audition canned and VST models seems close and more mix controllable.
That's a good question. It has its pros and cons.
Recording wet removes the ability to change the sound, but it can be the difference between a musician being 'ON' or 'OFF'. Some don't like playing if they don't hear 'their' sound coming out.
Vocals might be a little more forgiving, but maybe not. I've heard some pretty weird stories about vocalists wanting their mix to be just so!
Also, you may have outboard gear that is better than the software counterparts.
But, then again, software is getting better and better all the time, so it might hold right up there with hardware gear. Plus, if you record dry, you can change effects around for days, before you settle on a certain type of style.
I think that's the job of the engineer, choosing which way will be best for the given situation. One session may be better wet, another session may be better tweaked in the PC.
