Feb 09, 2006 04:02 pm Are you using the ASIO drivers? M-Audio's WDM drivers definitely leave a lot to be desired.
So is it latency that's hurting you?
Bought a Delta 44 but...
Posted on Feb 09, 2006 03:46 pm
olddog
Member Since: Jul 02, 2003
I'm kinda of disappointed in the card. Now, I wasn't expecting it to sound any better which it doesn't but I was expecting better performance than my Audigy 2. Instead my Audigy 2 out performs it by quite a bit for mixing, it's okay while recording, the Audigy also has a slightly lower noise floor and better signal gain going in.
I've updated to the latest drivers and checked every possible thing that could cause a problem but everything seems fine. I think I'm going to return the card, I really wanted a 4in 4out card though.
On the bright side the Behringer mixer I picked up at the same time is great, lots more routing options, nice clean sound and builtin FX it's the UB2222FX-Pro :)
Dan
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Feb 09, 2006 04:02 pm Are you using the ASIO drivers? M-Audio's WDM drivers definitely leave a lot to be desired.
So is it latency that's hurting you?
Feb 09, 2006 04:05 pm Yep using the ASIO drivers. The card is almost unusable during mixing after I start adding effects even with the DMA buffer at the max 2048 samples. The Audigy on the other hand does fine at 512.
Dan
Feb 09, 2006 04:11 pm Now the number of buffers and their size has perplexed me for the longest time...I would think that's more of a function of the PC than the card, but I don't know.
I switched from Kristal Audio to Cubase SE and I see a huge decline in the performance of my machine while mixing. Just like you say, all I have to do is add a couple of reverbs and I get pops and clicks during playback.
I fiddled with the buffer count and size but I'm not sure which way to go with the settings (is bigger better? or smaller? more buffers or fewer? I dunno!)
Did you switch software, or are you still using Audition? For me, Kristal handled it like a champ but Cubase seems to be a resource hog.
Sorry I don't have any advice on optimization because I'm currently suffering from the same problem as you!
Feb 09, 2006 08:50 pm I'm using Audition 2.0 now which supports ASIO.
There are 2 distinct buffer settings in most software Tad. 1, is program dependent and those are usually set as buffer size & number of buffers and these are what the program uses buffering input & output. The soundcard is separate from that and is usually just one setting and set in number of samples or latency.
The softwares buffer sizes don't really matter that much as far as latency. If you set for example a 1 second buffer and have 10 of them, (default for AA 1.5 and earier as an example)there is a 1 second delay before the program starts recording/playing back but once going it's the soundcards buffer setting that determines if your going to have latency during recording (well that and whether your computer can keep up with the # of tracks etc). So increasing the Softwares buffers isn't going to hurt your latency, only how long you have to wait before it starts recording/playing back. I've never found it too help much increasing the softwares buffers above the default, but YMMV.
Ideally you want the soundcards DMA buffer as small as possible for recording. For recording I can set either cards buffer to around 256 samples which relates to a 5ms latency. But for working on the mix adding effects etc, I have to bump the cards buffer up so that I don't get pops/crackles/droputs to 512-1024 samples for the SB Audigy 2 & 1024-2048 for the Delta 44 and even that isn't glitch free for the Delta.
I'm going to do some more testing tonight and see if I can get the card working better.
Dan
Feb 10, 2006 01:46 am OD, I still use my Delta 44 on my old P III 666 with 768 meg of ram. And honestly I can crank up the track count, add a bunch of FX and such and even a few software synths and I dont have any trouble at all with it. I have never set the buffer above 256 either. And I get no noise, pops or crackles at all.
My master clock is set to InternalXtal and its locked. Set the MultiTrack Driver Devices to Single and in Sync. Then down in the ASIO options, make sure and check the box to Dissable Audio app use of Moniter mixer and patch bay router. And make sure your outs are set and =4dBu as well.
It almost sounds as if AA is trying to use the lousy emulated WDM drivers. I know that was a huge problem in Cubase VST, as it always tried to use the emulated drivers and would not take to using the ASIO drivers, even though it appeared as if it was.
Double check your settings in the audio options in AA as well and make sure they match what you have slelected in the Delta panel. And also make sure that AA is using the Delta audio for its timing or sync. That can cause huge headaches as well.
Feb 10, 2006 04:05 am That's exactly how everything is setup. Tonight I even uninstalled both cards and then installed only the Delta 44, but not difference. AA seems to be using the ASIO drivers, changing the buffer size in the Delta control panel is reflected in AA. I also tried it in the Sonar 5 demo with similar results, loading in the same tracks and setting up a similar session.
Thing that gets me is I'm not even using one of my larger sessions, this one only has 12 tracks, 2 busses and effects wise only reverb (not a CPU intensive reverb either) & chorus on each buss for a total of 4 effects. Then I have Ozone 3 on the Master buss. I have no problem running the above on the SB as long as I up the buffer a bit, but the Delta just won't cut it at any buffer setting. In Sonar I was even able to run a lower buffer than AA with the SB. Just don't make sense. Maybe a deffective card, I don't know.
Dan
Feb 10, 2006 09:57 am Dang OD I don't know what to tell you...my Delta44 outperforms the Audigy 2 eX Platinum that I replaced it with. It's only been with the addition of Cubase SE that my system is underperforming...a couple of years with the likes of CoolEdit, Cubase SX2, and Kristal and I never had such a problem.
But I think my problem is probably configuration-related. But yours does seem like the card doesn't like your system for some reason.
I hope you can get it working, because it really is a great card!
Feb 10, 2006 10:00 am This thread is absolutely stunning to me...it has to be some odd conflict of hardware or something like that...it has to be, that's the only logical answer because in the real world there is no way on earth the Delta should be outperformed by a friggin Sound Disaster...
Feb 10, 2006 03:21 pm I gotta agree on being stunned as well. My 44 is now gotta be at least 6 or 7 years old. Latest drivers of coasre, and it is still rock solid.
OD, I worked a very large project in Sonar 2.2 on the older box using the 44 and it was loaded with 38 tracks, compressors on all but a few tracks. 6 busses, all with FX on them and then reverb on the master. And I was running at 256 for the final mix with nothing for noise at all.
I am thinking it may be a bad piece of hardware as well, or as dB stated something is amiss with AA talking to the Delta.
Feb 10, 2006 03:25 pm I think I might have fixed it, but I gotta test some more today and figure out which of the 4 or 5 last ditch things I did last night fixed it and if it's really fixed. LOL I'll post what fixed it soon as I narrow it down.
Dan
Feb 10, 2006 04:03 pm Dog,
You better have it fixed! I want to hear some awesome new tunes recorded through it!
Jim
Feb 10, 2006 05:39 pm OD, you didnt test after each thing you tried? Sounds like something I would have done years ago.
But indeed good to hear, and for sure let us know what it was if ya get it narrowed down.
Feb 11, 2006 04:53 am It was late last night I was ready to throw in the towel, then decided to try 4 or 5 things at once. Up to then I was doing 1 thing at a time. ;)
I may have spoke too soon. I don't know what changed between last night and today, but now AA is using 100% CPU and the glitching is back. It's different though, last night & before, AA wasn't using all the CPU. The card does appear to be working in Sonar now. But It's really a PITA though to test it every time rebuilding a session from scratch each in Sonar. It does play now in AA w/256 buffer but with the CPU pegged it doesn't take much to get the audio to break up.
I hope to get everything running smoothly Jim, I'd rather be making music than messing with getting cards & software to cooperate with each other. LOL
Dan
Feb 11, 2006 06:13 am Hey OD
I had problems with my Delta44 initially, which spookily enough sound similar to yours but, I do admit it took me a good solid whole night before the sucka would play!
That said, its a fine card. I have had nae bother and you wont regret it, once ye git it running.
For info, I have a 2.2 Celeron with 768MB and 160GB HD...so, not a top spec by any means. I reckon I had about 17 tracks on the go (maybe a bit more) with Happy Xmas War Is Over collab, and I had a Shedload of effects on EVERY channel. This was via CBase SX2....now, it did start to suffer in the end but I was running inserts of the built in MB Compressor plug, verb and EQ x 17 !! So, when I applied these to the tracks (Which, with SX2 can eb taken off again anyway - great) it all worked just fine.
What I done initially was disabled and killed a helluva lot of stuff to avoid IRQ conflicts. I killed the old sound card for a start. I killed modems I didnt need and anything else I could. I also set the buffers for ages (think mines is 512 tho I might be wrong) and its running fine now with me able to run about 15 tracks...though when it starts to crank (mind its a celeron) I fire on the FX rather than leaving them as real time inserts...
Good luck to ya anyway...dont give up on it bud, its worth the work in the end...bloody top card indeed.
All the best
Coco.
PS Jim, good to see ye man.
Feb 11, 2006 06:24 pm OD, the CPU issue lies solely within AA or what ever app might be tied to it. The card itself shouldnt cause the CPU to spike like that.
Just for kicks I loaded the old PC running the Delta with audio track's with no FX to see how far it would go. 58 track's with no pop's glitches with the buffer at 256.
Feb 14, 2006 12:52 am Sorry to be late replying back here, I've been moving. :) Finally have my computer back up but broadband won't be here till the end of the month yukkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk.
Well it seems AA has a problem with HyperThreading, hopefully there will be a patch soon to address the problem and I'm the one that discovered it. There are quite a few having problems, though some don't seem to be affected but I suspect most of their work isn't very demanding. I came up with a work around until they patch though so all isn't lost.
Dan
Feb 16, 2006 12:53 pm I am still in love with my Aardvark 24/96 Direct Pro sound card. Too bad they went out of business. It has been a flawless performer.
Feb 20, 2006 10:10 am I went to GC and picked up a Delta44 last Thursday, and spent the weekend recording drumtracks with it for a movie that theWent is in the process of "rewriting" .
Everything went smoothly, from install through recording . The card performed flawlessly, giving me 2.4ms of delay(4 tracks at 24/96) that I never heard a bit of . Mics to board, board to the card and back to board to monitor, with different mixes going to the drummer, and myself .
I used an SM57 between the snare and hat, pointed at the snare, towards the hat . An AudioTechnica DR1000 was used for the kick . Both of these mics were run into a DBX266 to control any transients .(VERY hard-hitting drummer) Then two MXL991s were used as overheads (no compressing). Once into Sonar, I panned the overheads at about 70% L, and R... and put the snare/hat/kick up the middle, and BOOM !... no phasing issues .(yea!) A little eq'ing, and I had a nice thick sound to work with . I will deffinately use this configuration again in the future, but now I'm thinking of picking up another one of these 44s, to be able to record 'whole' live sessions .
One thing that was nice was the fact that M-Audio's patchbay/router recognized the 24/96 as well, so I was able to use it's outs for a different monitor-mix... though I didn't try recording through it, I'm pretty sure I could've . Oh, and the BEST thing !... NO hummm ! I think it may have been the video-capture card that I pulled out before installing the 44 .
Feb 20, 2006 07:36 pm Hue, if you are gong to use them together make sure and use the Delta's clock and lock the 24/96 to it. It will make life much easier.
Feb 20, 2006 07:42 pm Hey, thanks Noize ! Will do .
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