River recording: Cardiod or omni-directional?
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Posted on Nov 26, 2005 12:23 am
thankful
Member Since: Nov 25, 2005
Greenhorn Question:
I need multiple, recording quality, samples of a local river but I do not want background noise. I may make some of the recordings from the river bank, the rest will hopefully be over the water in a boat. Cardiod stereo compressor mikes, 'pencil condensors', were recommended. I would like to have the stereo option. Yet, because of the varied surface of the water and the multiple angles of river sounds that I do want, I am wondering if cardiod really is the best. It seems if I go that way I will miss some of the rich sound variations on the surface of the water. I will mess with the sounds later in Max/MSP, so I want to get them as full as I can to start.
Anyone have any ideas what would be best to get all the river sound without all the background traffic etc? Thanks!
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Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Nov 26, 2005 03:10 pm I have used both Omni and Cardiod with good results in those situations. Honestly the Omni is going to give a much fuller picture, but avoiding some of the ambiant surrounding sounds is dificult. You can try to bring the mic closer to the wateer surface untill you loose some of the ambiant sounds you dont want. For close micing I do prefer the cardiod though for capturing a more direct sound. I use a stereo mic with a MiniDisk and it works very well. It does have an adjustable pattern though so I can get a narrow or wide sonic picture of the surroundings.
I guess I would recomend considering wether a mic like that which can be set to a couple differant settings would be worth it in the long run for you.
River fronts can be tuff depending on the surrounding area, but with a little work can be made to sound spledind.
flame...bringing sexy backMember
Since: Jul 01, 2002
Nov 27, 2005 08:50 am wow, another Max/MSP user - cool!
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Nov 27, 2005 01:30 pm Is it free?
Nov 29, 2005 11:12 am Do you use a single stero mike?
What are the ones with multiple settings called?
What techniques have you used to tape over the river from a boat or from the side of the river?
How do you ensure the safety of your
equipment?!?
If you have used a boat, what type of boat do you recommend?
As to Max/MSP: 30 day trial only is free. It is a long road into the program, but I think it will be worth it! It allows for interactive use of recordings with live performance.
Many thanks!
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Nov 29, 2005 09:42 pm Yes a single stereo mic.
They are refered to as multi pattern. Some as well use what is called variable pickup angle which is basically the same thing.
A couple good medium priced choices I have used or own.
Audio Technica: AT825 Phantom or battery powered
AT822 lower quality sound
SoundPro: SP-PSM-3 Can be mounted into an anabolic disc.
Sony: ECM-MS957 and ECM-M907 the latter is much cheaper and works well enough to use in risky situations were you might loose or damage a mic.
I have recorded from the sides, from a canoe as well as hanging mic's over bridge's, out of tree's and so on.
Ensuring safety, well gaffers tape on XLR connections, a safety wire, rope, string whatever is handy to double in case the connector were to let go.
Canoe was used, wood prefered in my case but fiberglass will do. Stay away from aluminium or the like as they echo far to loudly. A rubber raft as well would be a good choice as well.
Nov 30, 2005 11:11 pm Thanks!
What are the advantages of the stereo mike v.s. using two mikes to give the stereo effect?
If I use two mikes, I was told they could actually cancel each other out. How can I avoid that? How do you determine how far apart to have them? What is generally optimal?
How far away from the water did you usually have your mikes?
Did you usually position the mike in a holder attached to the boat or hold it with your hand?
With the types of mikes you have mentioned, will there be any influence on the recording if they are held in a slightly mobile hand in a mildly rocking boat???
One friend thinks I should buy an Edirol R1 and just use the onboard stereo mikes. Does anybody know anything about these recorders? Are the mikes really that good? Are they worth the cost? He had a recording studio for years and just loves his!
How big of a flash card would I need for 6 hours of max quality recording with the Edirol R1?
If I have to use a recorder with an audio feed, what quality sound card would I need?
Thats all for now! Thanks again!!!
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Dec 01, 2005 05:52 pm Using a stereo mic is more conveniant. And yes, phasing can be a major issue when using 2 mic's. The time it takes to set them up correctly is also something of a burden that makes using a single point stereo mic more attractive.
I have miced within inches of the water. But going for the bigger sound I usually go for at least 4 feet above the water. It really varies depending on the sound you want. IF you want less ambiant noise get it closer to the water.
I generally will wrap a piece of foam or towel around the mic were I am going to hold it. Otherwise suspending it by the cable also works well when recording from a bridge or tree limb.
I dont know about the Edirol so I cant give ya any insight there.
The quality of the sound you need will vary on exactly what you intened to do with it. That said, I have heard some incredibly horrible sample's that were done and for sale commercially. Expensive ones at that. If youa re going to approach this on an extremely proffesional basis, I would make sure and use a higher grade audio interface for sure.
Dec 01, 2005 10:27 pm Thanks!
Hey! May I ask you define a "high grade audio interface"?
Also, what is 'gaffer's tape'? Is that like duck tape? If it is not, where do you get it?
I am still trying to understand what makes sound quality and how you get that. What I know I need for Max/MSP is full sounds so I can thin it down, beef it up.
Actually, that is what I thought would be best. When you are altering and enhancing sounds, what qualities do they need to have to be most useable?
So, what makes a sample 'incredibly horrible' v.s. excellent? How do you inhibit the ugly components and facilitate the beautiful ones?
We just got snow. The river was up 6" today per the river guy. He advised against taping by boat Saturday per safety. It seems wise. I am still taping Saturday but a bit disappointed to not be having as much access to the river as by boat. Any ideas as how to maximize my opportunities and get as many varied sounds as possible?
Well, thanks again for your information and your patience with my very 'green' questions!
Dec 01, 2005 10:33 pm yep, gaffer tape is duct tape.
If you pan the stereo mics when your mixing, you shouldn't have any phase Issues. If it's going to be used in mono as well, time allign the tracks in your mixing app. - therefore - no phase issues.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Dec 02, 2005 07:40 pm Gaffers tape is like duct tape but the glue is not as sticky so it doesnt leave a residue or what little there is is easily removed.
By higher grade audio interface I mean something above the PC sond card level, as well above the Sound Blaster level as well. There are many out there in the $100.00 range now that are 2 channel, ie: stereo. As well there are some for the laptop's if that is the route you wish to go using USB or Firewire that are more then capable. Do your research on those though as some are finicky with certian hardware combination's.
Well honestly horrible is in the ear of the beholder. I have been doing sound design for year's and something's I thought were terrible and I saved for postarity turned out later to have just the right horrible to them to be used somewhere. Twisted sound's are often used for rythmic value as well. You can take that river you want to sound just like a river and end up creating a sample that will be used as a new synth sound for example. Or an ambiant layer under some other form of music. So there really arent any horrible sound's, just some are not suited for use in a particular piece.
AS for not being able to go the boat route. by all means find a good section of bank or a bridge that you can hang the mic over. You would be surprised at what you might get sound wise.
Dec 04, 2005 07:56 pm Thanks for your responses!
Noize2u: Your user name and your second to last paragraph's description of "horrible" sound go well together. How right you are to define it as the old phrase that says 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder'! I am glad of that reminder, especially right now as I have weathered my first field recording adventure!!! It makes me think it would be wise to save and catalog things for future use even if I cannot use them now! That paragraph is a great summary so I am going to mail it to my composition professor who teaches our aesthetics class where the music world attempts to challenge students in their perception of what 'beauty' in their art is (just the flip side of the question, "What is horrible".)
But now getting past that excellent and helpful response that addresses the whole picture, could you re-approach the question for the green beginner. What are 3-5 things to avoid in recordings that decrease the quality and 3-5 things to work for that generally give good recording quality? Even as I process the sounds I got yesterday and plan for the next trip, that will be helpful.
By God's grace I was given a new Edirol R-1. So, used that off the banks of the river. I got some sounds that I am pretty pleased with. But, I am still trying to understand what is good and what I really need for my Max/MSP project.
My biggest concern was the amount of air/atmosphere noise I was picking up. Reducing the input level helped, but then since I was on the bank, it sometime was to far to give a functional recording. Mid-recording got a suggestion that I modified that helped some. I used a plastic clothes basket, (the hard plastic type with the cutouts on the side), totally covered the inside with one of those huge bathtowel/bathsheets and then put the recorder in there. My friend who assisted me who has a bit of experience, said it would echo. But, when we checked on site, he was surprised how much of a difference it made.
Yet, that did not cut out all of that type of sound. Any ideas on how to a) prevent it and b) to get it out of the recordings I have?
I made one discovery at my one stop shopping place
Dec 04, 2005 08:35 pm ...continuing...
I found a product that I loved on the field called 'KWIKTWIST' in the automotive department. It is a piece of flexible wire covered by a version of 'sunmaid' foam (very compactable, will not mark things; great to grip). It is a yard long (they have them bent in half in the package), bright orange, holds 100 pounds of pressure and the ends are capped as they have male/female threaded ends so they can be put together to lenghthen them. They even say they float! They come in packages of two.
I used one twisted around the Edirol as the unit is totally plastic. Now when ny friend tested it, he found if he touched the unit or gripped the KWIKTWIST (KT) while recording, you could hear it on the recording. However, when I used the KT to get a good stable grip, before starting to record, and was careful not to move me hand, it really helped. I did a few where I had to hold the recorder with bare hands in the cold and that gave me just an extra bit of safety to keep gripping for the entire time I needed. I was sure grateful for that!
I wanted to mention it since it is a new thing that might expand your 'toolbox' and give more options the next time you are on the river! I am very excited about it! I am giving the extra one to my do-it-yourself-Dad! It is a perfect gift for this 'hard to buy for' father!
Now that I have gotten out on the first of many field recordings of my life [ :) ], I want those of you who answered my questions to know something. I praise God for each of you and this site! This thread played a significant role in assisting me in actually getting on the field yesterday. That was really important! I did not get all I wanted, but I got there.
The information, especially from Noize2u, really assisted my confidence not only in buying equipment, in planning my field expedition, but also in giving me confidence in what I knew when I recorded with someone with more experience. So, then I was able to take what my friend said and add to it from what I learned in order to get something even better!
After 3 months of eye surgery/related downtime, yet having a masters thesis to be performed in March/April which includes field recordings, this was huge! Thanks so much for taking time to share your experience and opinions with me who is so green at this! I did not have any time to study this and was really afraid as I knew so little. But, you all helped me get focused anwers at the points my questions were at. I am very grateful! Many thanks and Christ's rich blessings to you!
Dec 04, 2005 09:09 pm Quote:
'beauty is in the eye of the beholder'!
Hmmm,I always thought it was "beauty is in the eyes of the beer holder". Learn something new every day. :-)
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Dec 04, 2005 10:19 pm Nice dB. I spose it depends on how many beer's the holder has been holding, :-)
thankfull, thanx for the praise. That is what this site is all about, giving a hand to those who need it.
Anyway, glad you got the first one out of the way and it turned out good. As for the suggestion's I will try and give you some answer's in the next couple of day's in this thread. Had a late night last night and its now time to rest for work.
Also good to hear the Edirol worked out for you, sounds like a nice little unit to have.
Dec 11, 2005 09:11 pm Thanks Noiz2u! It is great to have people that want to help when it is needed. My university has not been much assistance if I did not take the classes and learn the information there.
The Edirol is a blessing! I can do my song ideas on MP3 to save space but get them down. Then, I can still do the field recording as a 24 bit wave file. Since my professor does not have compatible software, it will allow me to easily tape a computer generated version of music notated on Sibelius and share it as needed. It has opened up a lot of applications since I can transfer the information via flash card or USB!
I am still open to more ideas. I was out yesterday again. It seemed that I either had to run a high input level with lots of extra sound or not have the sample of river sounds hot enough to sound decent in my 'fair grade' stereo headphones. I have not had time to experiment with taking a lot of lower input samples to see how useable the lowinput samples are. Any ideas? A boat would still help i.e. distance is an issue. But, I am thankful for what the Edirol is catching.
Thanks for your continued ideas!
