Political Bind

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Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member Since: May 10, 2002

This is a simple request for some politicaly savoy advice. I have in my mist a delima. A very talented songwriter who also plays guitar and records has been a friend and bandmate now for eight years or so. Together we went from poor in all respects to pretty good. There was when the split came. I am the class A ******* and went on to improve on playing and recording. Recently he asked me to assist him with a few songs he authored. I assembled a group and made a first stab. This weekend we made an attempt to bring the pieces up to a new level. All of the players worked hard to get their respective pieces in place. Then entered my friend. No practice, no thought. Banged through the song and grabbed another beer (nothing against beer, it's the apathy, arogence, etc that the action represents). Belched and made animal noises throughout his back up track. One piece does have a humerous set of lyrics. I can't print it! All of his parts sound like !@#%$.

It hurts to just can it and not look back, but I can't bring myself to generate yet one more coaster that will take up space in a drawer. Especially with the potential these songs have.

Damn, I hate growing apart!

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Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

May 27, 2002 02:17 am

Is there someone that is an aquaintance of both you and he, that could come in and listen to the track's and maybe give the beer guzzler an honest opinion. That way it is not you who is doing the request for corrective action directly. I worked with many big headed wanna be's over the year's that had the money and the equipment, but not the heart or talent ( well maybe they had some talent, but just didn't know how to get past the big head thing and use it). And that was the only way I knew how to get the point across. Sometime's it worked and sometime's it didn't. But at least it was worth a shot. Women always seemed to do the trick for one guitar hotshot who had real fast finger's, but the pity was he couldn't seem to get them on the right note's more then 2 or 3 out of 10 time's.

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002

May 27, 2002 03:18 am

Nice call Noize! I can do that. In fact the woman thing falls right in there too! (he is highly competitive when it comes to a woman being around) I know just the woman. Excelent vocalist who we both have worked with before. It will take a little fanagaling to get things set up, but I think it is doable. In the mean time, I will keep hacking apart his parts. Thank God for a wave editor. I will have to get the song in pretty good shape before she will entertain the idea of singing on it. That should work out good if I watch my presentation.

Member
Since: Apr 05, 2002

May 27, 2002 10:39 am

This will sound harsh, but sometimes its what needs to be done. I can sing now, or at least that's what I am told, but I used to be terrible. Back when I was around 14 or 15 I was playing drums for a little garage band and we didn't have a singer. Well, I was the only one who could remember the words and play my instrument, so I sang until we found a realy singer. Anyways, we were practicing at my house and my Dad comes up to me one day and tells me that we can't play there anymore. I get a questioning look and ask if the neighbors are complaining or something and he tells me no, its just my singing is causing all the neighrborhood dogs to howl. He then proceeded to tell me that unless I learned to sing I couldn't play there anymore. I know some of you are goign to think this is really harsh, but my Dad knew that I didn't take to be coddeled very well and that if he told me I was bad at something that I would work really hard to get better. Well, I did and here I am today, not signed to any record deal, but I can sing pretty good. Maybe you should just try it with this guy. SOmetimes honesty hurts, believe me that I know. They may get mad at first, but after they think about it, they may try ti improve. I think having someone else come in is a great idea as well because friends tend to not always take other friends criticism very well. But, if you sau listen, these songs could be great, but the vocals need a lot of work, maybe he'll shape up and actually try. Otherwise, get another singer. Better yet, just play the tracks for him and most singers will hate their voice, if you can believe it Jimi Hendrix hated the sound of his voice, used to sing behind a screen so he couldn't see anyone while he was recording. So, after hearing it, he might willingly go for the idea. Just a thought.
Marc (da Sharc)

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002

May 27, 2002 11:13 am

Marc, I totaly agree with you on the sometimes folks don't take criticism from friends well. And you are right. He does not. This is a problem of concentric circles. Circles of friends or musicians. His primary circle is one of (trying not to be condecending here) real goofs. Kinda like "lets get a lot of beers, bang on things and make noises with instruments and have fun!" In that circle he is KING! He has some proficiency on guitar. He knows not the talent he has! He authored the stuff we are working on together so I can't cut him without cutting the songs too. The songs are good! Problem is when he comes to perform he brings his beers and mantality to the performance of the songs. I have enough difficulty keeping his friends out! I keep saying well I need to get the core of the songs together before we add any more. He has made recordings of he and his friends and the recordings are SPECIAL for sure. Your bottom line answer may be the answer. I may have to cut the whole mess and consider the songs gone.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

May 27, 2002 01:27 pm

Hey Marc, you are straight on the singer's hating their voice thing. I have worked with many who could not song with their own voice (myself included) becuase they think it sounds lousy. My personal solution, and I know it is a kind of cop out is to use a voice that is not my natural voice. The good thing is I have found I have many differant voice's to use for many differant situation's which in the end is not all bad. The reality still is, at least I have put time into finding a voice or voice's that I can use that sound good.

Member
Since: Apr 05, 2002

May 28, 2002 12:25 am

One thing that I found out early on, and I really had to work hard to correct this problem, was that I had to learn to sing in my own voice. I, like many others I am sure, had a tendency to imitate whatever I heard from another group. The problem is that using another voice is not very strong and therefore it didn't sound quite right either. Its like doing a lower body workout only and then expecting that you have big biceps. Doesn't work. The thing that I had learned was that no one likes the sound of their own voice bceause we aren't used to hearing it. Our ears are behind our mouth and so we hear resonance from our head and some reflection, not our true voice. Once I got used to hearing it, I got used to it, although I still don't "like" it. I knwo there are a lot of singers that do change their voice, and soem are really good at it. For me and the style I was singing, country at that time if you can believe it, it just didn't work well. But I fel better for it, because the 80's are over and singers don't have to scream liek they used to. Some still do of course, but for the most part I think singers have gotten better. That and I think studio magic has improved a lot as well! lol What I found was that if I could sing liek someone really good, Nat King Cole, Elvis, Frank Sinatra, then I could sing anyway I wanted. They aren't the style of music that I prefer, but they are examples of good singers. If you're going to imitate, might as well imitate someone good! Even "bad" singers have vertain qualities that lend themselves to certain styles of music, but I guess having more of a folkish (ie James Talyor, Jim Croce, etc.) influence to my music, it didn't work for me. I think its all in the way you present it. But, if there is any advice that I could give to someone learnign to sing, it is to record your voice and listen to it compared to other recordings and see the difference between you and others who have already made it. Even most of the bad singers still ahve certain qualities to their voice.
Marc (da Sharc)

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002

May 28, 2002 12:45 am

This forum has become my "musicians anounimous". I vent, rant, rave, "have a fit and throw @##$%" get ideas and go back to work. Reading the last couple of posts, I am wondering how many mental filters I have on this piece? At this point I think I need to have someone else not connected at all critique the piece. hint hint....volenteers anybody?

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

May 28, 2002 12:59 am

You have my e-mail Walt, go for it. I am a critical SOB. Thats probably why it take's me a year and half to finish a piece sometime's.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002

May 28, 2002 07:16 am

OK, I feel the need to voice my thoughts on this now, I was trying to stay out of it, but I can't.

Myself, just like everyone else here I am sure, has a good war story from the bandmate from hell or similar stories about drunken members (I was that guy every now and then too) and the "big fish in a little pond" syndrome with some people.

I am looking at this kinda the same way I looked at myself when I began to clean up my act and grow up a little bit, I think this is what you are doing as well, you look around you and see your friends, but, as you said, you have grown up and in different directions. It's sad, but it is life, and the quicker you just get out of that circle of people the happier you will be.

Look at how crazy it is making you, that can't be good for you, and as far as your friend goes, you can talk to him all you want, it is a text-book behaviour for people to fall back in the group where they are the king, instead of the jester, and that is what will happen.

In my personal experience, I made this step about 5 years ago and my life has improved exponentially since then with a better job, better friends, better home biz (dB Masters), better family life. All because I am hanging with people who are trying to forge ahead instead of contently sitting in their familiar surroundings.

That said, I was not mean and arrogant telling the ol' crowd to f-off, I just started hanging with different folks. And every once-in-a-while I will pop into one of their parties to join the open jam or something and catch up with a few of them and what I usually find is even 5 years later they are jamming the same covers, working the same jobs, a few more brain-cells are missing and hanging with all the same people...it is fun, however, for a few reasons, I get to catch up with some old bandmates and such, I get supreme validation that I did the right thing those many years ago, and I get to rock out for a night and have a few beers.

Just food for thought, take it for what you think it is worth, it's just been my personal experience.

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002

May 28, 2002 11:22 am

This is embarasing. Nothing like waking up in da-nile without a paddle!

Quote "Look at how crazy it is making you".

And you are right. There is no one to tell off. It is not them that needs the change. They are content. I need to change, I am not. I think having malled this over for a bit I knew this at some level. Just did not want to let go. Worse yet did not want to face the work of developing the circles where I would be comfortable. In my mind music seems so get in or get out. I am not prepared to "go full time" and yet I can't put up with dinking around.

My problem. I will deal with it.

Thank you for your honesty, and for coming forth. It could not have been easy for you either!

Oops! got tunnel vision again. Noize, I will send you a copy soon for a review of my own skills. I will make something good come out of this. But yes, I will take a couple more passes at it to make it a sample that represents my best anyway!

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002

May 28, 2002 11:58 am

No, it was not easy at all, it is very hard to essentially throw away your entire past and start over. But, as the old saying goes, nothing worth while is ever easy. And, many years later when I do go to the occasional party, or bump into one of "the old gang" at a bar, restaurant or mall, all it has done is re-affirm to me that I made the right decisions.

Not saying I dislike those people, as I have many fond memories and had a lot of great times with them, I just want more from life than they do, so our motives and priorities are different.

I think it was george who had a pretty funny insight when we were talking over some beers one day about this kind of thing and he said something to the effect of "When I realized I wanted more from life than a sleeping bag and a boombox I knew something had to change", it is isn't a direct quote, but the thought is there, and, know it or not george, that thought has stuck with me...

Do what ya gotta do Walt, you're the better man for it, even if it doesn't feel like it right now.

Member
Since: Apr 05, 2002

May 28, 2002 02:13 pm

I wanted to say, well said dB! I think a lot of people don't realize that friendships are a lot like relationships. Some are good for you, and others are bad. As hard as it might be to get out of them, in the long run you are almost always better for it. The only thing that you can hope for is that they "mature" too and maybe one day you can reform the friendship that was there in the beginning with a new understanding. But, I hate to say that this rarely if ever happens, at least in my experience. Its going to sound really snobby, but I won't play with musicians that are not as good, or better than myself. I just feel that otherwise, they will bring me down. I am not playing with anyone at all right now, so maybe I ned to lower my standards, but when I do that I get frustrated with either the lack of skill, or the lack of committment. I think that the only thing that you can hope for is that eventually you'l, find a niche where you DO fit in and everyone else around you lifts you up rather than brings you down. I look for this in my musical life as well as my personal and so far, I think I am happier for it.
Marc (da Sharc)

On a side note, I saw Star Wars again since my brother hadn't seen it. I think that yoda is not only a bad mofo, but he is a pimp too. He kicks butt, but he walks around with that cane. What a playa!

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

May 28, 2002 11:37 pm

Yes, very well said. I think you and I have covered this ground more then once on a Thursday evening, while casually enjoying a malted beverage. Memorie's are wonderfull, and I would not trade the path I followed for anything, especially the last 5 year's.

I have to thank dB and a young man named Phil, for getting me to take myself seriously and put the studio to a little better use then I had in the past.

I guess having played with some real gem's in the past just re-affirmed the direction I had headed several time's in the past. I enjoy working alone or with people on the web now. I think it give's me and them, more creative freedom, because we are not afraid to tell one another what to fix, and what to leave alone.

And this website in all its incarnation's has taught me so very much, not only about other's, but myself. I never imagined 5 year's ago I would be spending so much time doing this, and giving back what I have learned, while still learning new thing's every day.

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002

Jun 01, 2002 11:21 am

I know this thread is getting old, but I just thought I would let you know that ya-all have passed it on and yes it works well! My friend and wayward band member asked to hear the mix downs. I had already moved ahead and edited out the crap. He never said word boo about the missing parts and just complemented the mix. I was able to convey what I would participate in and what not. I made my direction clear and he understands that he as at liberty to participate within the boundries of that direction. Obviously this means little as far as the outcome of the immediate project, which has little gravity all in all.

So, onward and upward we go, where we stop nobody knows. Ok that one is basterdized.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Jun 01, 2002 01:55 pm

Sometime's ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

Cone Poker
Member
Since: Apr 07, 2002

Jun 01, 2002 08:40 pm

ok, I'm a jerk but this is what I would do:

If the singer on your track is making it sound bad tell him "Hey man, in all respect and everything you're not singing that great on this track. Go home and work on it or we're gonna find someone else." I mean if you're trying to sound like crap in your vocals then go for it. But when you're trying to sound good then do all you can and don't be afraid to hurt peoples feelings. It's all about the music. They may get mad and hate you, or they may improve I don't know. I'd just flat out tell them. Then again I'm the guy who said to a previous band member "Dude you're just an @$$ so I'm kicking you out of the band, i don't like you even though you can play well"

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